FSU Realities: How does it Affect East-West Relations

[Kuna]

Getting married at a young age surely carries risk.. getting married to a woman much younger than you carries risk².

DKMM,

How old are you?

*on behalf of DKMM*

he is only 30... and it's only a 7 year age gap...  but...

[Gator]

DKMM wrote,

Gator, sounds like you had a girl like my ex. .... I'm even getting the same kind of emails, but with the added question of whether I'll take her back (but vague to hide the pride, if you know what I'm saying).

Don't think about it.  A good question for these cases - if it did not work the first time, what has changed to make it work the second time?  In your case, there has not been enough time for her (or you) to have evolved to a different person. 

Some may ask, well Gator did you not go back.  Yes,  a metamorphic 18-months later.  And her most bold and dramatic move - never seen such before except in one romantic movie.

[myrddin]

*on behalf of DKMM*

he is only 30... and it's only a 7 year age gap...  but...

If I knew nothing else about a Western couple except that she was 23 and he was 30, I'd also support the idea of a 3+ year courtship.  7 years is almost a third of her life right now!  He was an adult, she was only in her mid teens.  But not only will that issue be mostly gone when she's 26, you'll both know each other a lot better.  And I hope things work out for you DKMM

[Gator]

DKMM,

The question of age.  First you.   You seem very mature for 30, at least much more than my 28-yo son.     Also, you have bounced around the RW scene for some time so you are not a novice. 

How about one of your 23-yo prospects?  Maybe.   In this regard, I offer a guideline for selecting a life partner. 

(MOVED TO NEW THREAD)


 

[KenC]

Be very afraid... IMHO it's the biggest risk and the one I was trying most to avoid.

Scammers???  Who cares - you should be able to pick them....  Pro-daters???  Who cares - the damage is relatively small...  Failed Marriage???  That's the biggie!

How many "mule" stories do you hear of where you think the woman genuinely planned to use the man as a mule? I think it's more likely she arrives and realises the world (or her partner) is far different than she ever imagines.

For this reason I was looking for someone with life experience... and thankfully I found someone with a broader view than I could of hoped for because of her study in Germany.

Not being afraid of a girl who is expected to change is like leaving success to a pure gamble...  As a friend I would sincerely urge you against it!

DKMM, any relationship in this day and age is a risk but the key to our long term happiness is minimising the risk.  Isn't that one of the reasons some men look to FSU to start with...  to find women with stronger family values?

Don't gamble anything.  Develop a plan that is low risk... the lowest risk you can establish.  Twenty three years of age is high risk in some people's eyes but I htink that age is fine - AS LONG AS YOU'RE PLANNING A 3+ YEAR COURTING PERIOD.   

Kuna

Kuna,
Even though your advice is logical, you are starting to sound a little like you are describing a science project or at the very least, a business venture.  All the talk about "low risk" with the implied maximum return is not addressing any emotional development.  You know, that thing called "Love."  Many of us (myself included) have pushed the envelope of logic in the name of love.  To me, a successful long term relationship is a balance of logic and emotional bonding.  All the pieces might be a perfect fit, but without the glue of love to hold it all together, you just have two people that are well matched on paper.

Many of the newer marrieds, like you, had developed a plan to find the perfect match based on logic and facts only.  While that may be a great way to find a good starting point in a relationship, it is just a starting point.  Without the development of love in a marriage, it is doomed for failure sooner or later IMO.
KenC

[Misha]

Don't gamble anything.  Develop a plan that is low risk... the lowest risk you can establish.  Twenty three years of age is high risk in some people's eyes but I htink that age is fine - AS LONG AS YOU'RE PLANNING A 3+ YEAR COURTING PERIOD.   

Kuna

Why three years? I understand the necessity of not rushing into things and truly getting to know the woman you fell in love with (presuming there was chemistry when the couple first met), but three years is a bit extreme. Long-distance relationships rarely work out and few people have the time and the money to fly to another country every couple of months over a three year period. Also, the 3+ years you are proposing are 3+ years she won't be studying or perfecting her future language.

My wife and I spent 3 months together on a daily basis and that was more than enough to know each other. I can't say that I have really learned anything more about my wife since then. Also, I am curious as to why you are proposing 3+ years of courting when you yourself spent much, much less time. How long did court your wife before she came to Australia? The only factor seems to be age, but in my experience by the time a woman in Russia has reached the age of 23, her personality has been pretty much formed and her values are in place. There is not that much that will change after that time.

The problem, IMHO, is that men ignore their intuition. Their "gut" will tell them from day one that something is wrong, yet they will plow forward in spite of their better judgment. A long courtship won't necessarily change that.

[Kuna]

Why three years? I understand the necessity of not rushing into things and truly getting to know the woman you fell in love with (presuming there was chemistry when the couple first met), but three years is a bit extreme. Long-distance relationships rarely work out and few people have the time and the money to fly to another country every couple of months over a three year period. Also, the 3+ years you are proposing are 3+ years she won't be studying or perfecting her future language.

My wife and I spent 3 months together on a daily basis and that was more than enough to know each other. I can't say that I have really learned anything more about my wife since then. Also, I am curious as to why you are proposing 3+ years of courting when you yourself spent much, much less time. How long did court your wife before she came to Australia? The only factor seems to be age, but in my experience by the time a woman in Russia has reached the age of 23, her personality has been pretty much formed and her values are in place. There is not that much that will change after that time.

The problem, IMHO, is that men ignore their intuition. Their "gut" will tell them from day one that something is wrong, yet they will plow forward in spite of their better judgment. A long courtship won't necessarily change that.

You may be right... and I admit I used the 3 year figure as an arbitary pine is the sand that we could all argue over...  AND others have proved you CAN find a young FSUW and turn her into a wife even when they are 23 or younger - but:

DKMM has been through this before with younger girls;
MANY, and I repeat MANY men have failed when chasing women under 25;
The mythical "RW are more mature than AW" belief isn't as true as men chasng 23 yr old would like it to be;
DKMM's gut (or judgment) has failed him before...

I'm not trying to slam him - and won't slam him because I know he's a good guy - I just hope he gives himself an easier time next time...

[Kuna]

Kuna,
Even though your advice is logical, you are starting to sound a little like you are describing a science project or at the very least, a business venture.  All the talk about "low risk" with the implied maximum return is not addressing any emotional development.  You know, that thing called "Love."  Many of us (myself included) have pushed the envelope of logic in the name of love.  To me, a successful long term relationship is a balance of logic and emotional bonding.  All the pieces might be a perfect fit, but without the glue of love to hold it all together, you just have two people that are well matched on paper.

Many of the newer marrieds, like you, had developed a plan to find the perfect match based on logic and facts only.  While that may be a great way to find a good starting point in a relationship, it is just a starting point.  Without the development of love in a marriage, it is doomed for failure sooner or later IMO.
KenC

Ken,

I see you've double posted this so I'll respond in the other thread that Gaot started because you make a few good points I woud liek to comment on...

[DKMM]

I see this thread got continued in another, but i wanted to throw out some facts.

I've dated FSU girls of the following ages:

21,23,24,27.  The 21 year old was by far the most mature and well adjusted and the 27 year old ended up being the least stable.

And it was me avoiding my gut that got me in my previous mess.  I kept writing those feelings off as something that comes with the territory of courting a RW...  Wrong!!

[myrddin]

Thanks for sharing some facts, DKMM.  I think many of us can agree that age alone is not an indication of maturity.  When I said "knowing nothing other than the ages", I meant that.  I don't know much else.  I once overheard a woman talking about her 23rd birthday saying "I feel so much more mature than at 21 now!" and it just sounded funny, as it was two days after her party (and one day after the hangover).  But certainly there are mature, stable 23 year olds in existence. 

I think that "gut reaction" or "intuition" is the mind reacting to something on a level below conscious thought. If we were aware of all the subtleties our gut picked up on, it *would* be logical.  Thus, it is illogical to ignore your gut reactions!

 I hope your head and your gut end up in agreement this time.  Good luck!

[ScottinCrimea]

Sure her age alone is not necessarily mean it is doomed to failure, nor does an age gap, limited English, etc. etc. and we can always find exceptions to anything.  The problem is that everyone seems to think that they or their girl is the exception.  The risk with adding these factors together increases exponentially.

[DKMM]

My point exactly is that shooting for a 22-25 year old is going to increase my odds of finding a good woman.  The reason is simple to me, because that is the age when most marriage minded RW seek to get married.  Anyone left over that is older than that is more likely to have some sort of issues as the "good ones" get married by then.  This isn't just some hair brained idea, its also been confirmed by many RW friends I've made over the years.

My plan is to eliminate girls that deviate from the following:  22-25, both parents still married, dad has a good job.  Preferrably a sibling.  A level of education higher than the 2 year technical degrees.  Still lives at home or with some other family members (there is some wiggle room here but not much).  That's my version of risk management.

I used that to narrow down my list to about 5 girls from the same small city I'm going to next month. 

[mischief]

My point exactly is that shooting for a 22-25 year old is going to increase my odds of finding a good woman.  The reason is simple to me, because that is the age when most marriage minded RW seek to get married.  Anyone left over that is older than that is more likely to have some sort of issues as the "good ones" get married by then.  This isn't just some hair brained idea, its also been confirmed by many RW friends I've made over the years.

Confirming that too...

[smartcat]

My point exactly is that shooting for a 22-25 year old is going to increase my odds of finding a good woman.  The reason is simple to me, because that is the age when most marriage minded RW seek to get married.  Anyone left over that is older than that is more likely to have some sort of issues as the "good ones" get married by then.  This isn't just some hair brained idea, its also been confirmed by many RW friends I've made over the years.

As far as you started get friends with RW years ago, they were right about telling that... years ago.
Many of 22-25 (and 26 and 28...) are not married but they have boyfriends they live together. It's much more common today than it was even 10 years ago. You can not call it common-in-law, as if it does not work out, the couple splits much more easily, as there's almost no law works for them sharing all their sausepans.
Well, so there are a lot of single and never been married people up to their early thirties.

So, today the old society does not look to never married 25+ y.old as to "bad leftover with an issue", as far as she had some relationships.

However, you can still hear that from village old people. Also you can hear that a guy which has never been married in his 30 y.old is the same "leftover nut".

[DKMM]

Which is exactly why I only am meeting girls that still live with their families.  I absolutely will not accept someone who has lived with a man.  Maybe that means I'm from a village to you, but its how I choose to play it.

[Gator]

DKMM's criteria,

My plan is to eliminate girls that deviate from the following:  22-25, both parents still married, dad has a good job.  Preferrably a sibling.  A level of education higher than the 2 year technical degrees.  Still lives at home or with some other family members (there is some wiggle room here but not much).

Your criteria for the most part seem excellent.

We have discussed age before.  While 22 is a young woman, we have KenC's marriage as proof that a woman of that vintage, if not even a little younger, can make an exceptional, committed wife.   At least at 22-25 she has worked somewhere, and her attitude about work will give you some clues.

I really like your requirement about parents living together.  Family values have been imprinted in such women every day of her life provided that their parents are happily married.  You should observe how her parents interact with each other - look for humor, admiration, and thoughtful dialogue.  A mama living under the thumb of a brutal tyrant is worse IMO than a divorced family.

If you learn that her Dad is a good man, he will be a big influence, so pay close attention.

Having a sibling means that she is not a completely spoiled princess.

Education - of course, we know the importance that RW attach to it.

Living at home - this one is questionable.  Although it would show strong sense of commitment to family, I like women who are self-reliant to the degree of living on their own.  Having never lived with a boyfriend?  The times are changing, especially for the smart women.   Is this a double standard in comparison with your own life?

I would not like to see you subconsciously force a woman into a corner where she feels compelled to lie.  Sorry to bring back an old memory.  I like women who tell everything.  But they tell the "bad" just once, and you then forget about it.

Your criteria seem to match your first RW, the Cancun princess, IIRC.

Enjoy your trip.

[Gator]

Smartcat wrote,

Also you can hear that a guy which has never been married in his 30 y.old is the same "leftover nut".

I have heard that RW believe "something is wrong" with a 40-yo American man who has never been married.  Yet they apply a 30-year threshold for Russian men!!!  RW give RM no slack.  No wonder RM drink lots of vodka.

Are there other ways in which RW are more intolerant regarding their own Russian men?

[smartcat]

Which is exactly why I only am meeting girls that still live with their families.  I absolutely will not accept someone who has lived with a man.  Maybe that means I'm from a village to you, but its how I choose to play it.

Does it mean that you are looking for a virgin in her 22-25?

[Blues Fairy]

I really like your requirement about parents living together. 

If you learn that her Dad is a good man, he will be a big influence

Having a sibling means that she is not a completely spoiled princess.

How lucky that my husband does not give a damn about my being a "spoiled only child" with divorced parents, who hasn't spoken to her father in years.  With criteria similar to the above, we wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell to meet and marry. 

[Misha]

How lucky that my husband does not give a damn about my being a "spoiled only child" with divorced parents, who hasn't spoken to her father in years.  With criteria similar to the above, we wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell to meet and marry. 

Pretty much. My wife's parents were never married and they have been separated for close to three decades. Having a sibling, however, does not make a woman less likely to be "spoiled" or a "daddy's girl." Quite often, in Russia, there is a large gap between children (10 years or so) and this means that the two children were in effect raised as an "only child" given the large age  spread between children.

[Faux Pas]

How lucky that my husband does not give a damn about my being a "spoiled only child" with divorced parents, who hasn't spoken to her father in years.  With criteria similar to the above, we wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell to meet and marry. 

I can honestly say, I saw this one coming. Excellent point BF!

[myrddin]

People can argue criteria all day long, it's good to know what is important for yourself.  Divorce is never a happy thing, but sometimes recognizing a mistake is better than perpetuating it. 

[Gator]

Blues Fairy,

How lucky that my husband does not give a damn about my being a "spoiled only child" with divorced parents, who hasn't spoken to her father in years.  With criteria similar to the above, we wouldn't have had a snowball's chance in hell to meet and marry. 

I am in trouble again - twice now with this thread.

Not only do I understand and appreciate your point, I live it!  My Moscow fiancee came from a very dysfunctional family - abandoned by both her father or mother - raised by her grandmother.  Yet, she is a gem.  I question only her intelligence in choosing to marry me.

On page one of this thread I said life in Russia is difficult (actually I used the word "rotten" and got into trouble).  If a woman manages to emerge from that with family values, optimistic spirit, and a strong moral code to include honesty - she is an incredible woman who probably is DNA-hardwired to be that way.

Nevertheless, a dysfunctional family does no good, only harm.  I believe it leaves some mark, not necessarily a scar.  You are strong enough or good enough to have prevailed.  Not all do.  

But getting back to DKMM, he has his criteria and I presume they derived from reflecting about his past experiences.  It is the way he wants it.  And a man must have some basis for eliminating one million beautiful RW to one - he can not meet them all even if a few men have tried.

[Blues Fairy]

My Moscow fiancee came from a very dysfunctional family - abandoned by both her father or mother - raised by her grandmother.  Yet, she is a gem.

Grandmothers are the way to go!    I was raised by mine until the age of 7 and perhaps that's what allowed me to grow up into a relatively normal human being with the kind of parents I had.  That, and my running away from them at 17.

DKMM may look for a homely girl with good loving parents, but he's got just as much chance of landing a helpless, totally dependent mamma's girl who will demand twice-a-day calls home and a trip to Russia four times a year to sustain her loving family ties.  A girl from a slightly dysfunctional family may, however, turn out quite a fun companion able to take care of herself and determined not to repeat her folks' mistakes.     

[Misha]

DKMM may look for a homely girl with good loving parents, but he's got just as much chance of landing a helpless, totally dependent mamma's girl who will demand twice-a-day calls home and a trip to Russia four times a year to sustain her loving family ties.  A girl from a slightly dysfunctional family may, however, turn out quite a fun companion able to take care of herself and determined not to repeat her folks' mistakes.     

The first woman described by Blues Fairy fits my ex to a tee and the second is a perfect description of my wife. I, for one, prefer a woman from a slightly dysfunctional family who wants to be judged on her successes and is not seeking to continually please mom and dad.