RU Elections

[BC]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/03/02/ST2008030201044.html

The result of course was not surprising but what struck me was voter turnout reported at 65%

In the US, 2004 had the highest turnout since 1968 at 60.7%

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10492-2005Jan14.html

There of course will be a lot of critique regarding elections, but still it seems at least more Russians are interested in casting their votes than elsewhere.

Is the western world apathocratic instead of democratic?

[Admin]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/03/02/ST2008030201044.html

The result of course was not surprising but what struck me was voter turnout reported at 65%

In the US, 2004 had the highest turnout since 1968 at 60.7%

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10492-2005Jan14.html

There of course will be a lot of critique regarding elections, but still it seems at least more Russians are interested in casting their votes than elsewhere.

Is the western world apathocratic instead of democratic?

I saw this photo at CNN this AM.

Anyone notice anything a little .... odd?

- Dan

[wxman]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/03/02/ST2008030201044.html

The result of course was not surprising but what struck me was voter turnout reported at 65%

In the US, 2004 had the highest turnout since 1968 at 60.7%

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10492-2005Jan14.html

There of course will be a lot of critique regarding elections, but still it seems at least more Russians are interested in casting their votes than elsewhere.

Is the western world apathocratic instead of democratic?

Hard to have a democratic election when the media is owned by the government, Medvedev refuses to enter any of the debates and a unbelievable 100% vote for the party in Chechnya.  In the US there is an almost equal sharing of power between the left and the right. A true democracy needs a viable and unhindered opposition, something that does not exist in Russia. 65% turnout means nothing when your choices are controlled by the state. 60% turnout may look worse in the US, but there are choices that through the open election process, anyone can emerge. If those choices are not preferred by the people, they exercise their other voting right, and that is not voting for any of the candidates. Do I wish more would vote in the US, of course, but not because they have to. 

[I/O]

I saw this photo at CNN this AM.

Anyone notice anything a little .... odd?

- Dan

I didn't realise they had concurrent elections in Ukraine.

I/O

[Admin]

I didn't realise they had concurrent elections in Ukraine.

I/O

Yeah - I honestly don't know if that was a mistake by the AFP (French Press), or if the Russian Black Sea Fleet has provisions for voting in Sevastopol (Ukraine).

It was curious, in any case.

- Dan

[I/O]

(French Press)

'Nuff said.

or if the Russian Black Sea Fleet has provisions for voting in Sevastopol (Ukraine).

Possible.

I/O

[Misha]

The result of course was not surprising but what struck me was voter turnout reported at 65%

There of course will be a lot of critique regarding elections, but still it seems at least more Russians are interested in casting their votes than elsewhere.

Is the western world apathocratic instead of democratic?

Well, I take the "official" figures with a healthy does of skepticism. If Chechnya once again reports a "99%" turnout with "99%" of the vote for Medvedev, I will presume that a lot of ballot boxes were stuffed....

[BillyB]

Remember, in Saddam's last election, he had 100% voter turnout with 100% of the people voting for him. Even a state controlled media couldn't have that kind of effect on it's people.

I remember Ukraine's numerous elections. The Ukrainians here in America told me East Ukrainians, who favor Putin, would get on buses to go around from town to town to vote numerous times. It wasn't until the third election that was monitored that the majority was heard.

[Shadow]

Well for those who feel the opposition should have chances...

Name the opposition, and why they would be good candidates.

[BC]

I saw this photo at CNN this AM.

Anyone notice anything a little .... odd?

- Dan

Yeah real familiar.. Look at Gator's avatar!

 

[I/O]

Yeah real familiar.. Look at Gator's avatar!

 

Nasty.

I/O

[BillyB]

Well for those who feel the opposition should have chances...

Name the opposition, and why they would be good candidates.

Don't keep up with Russian politics and don't know any names but I'm sure there are plenty of good smart Russians that would make excellent leaders but they just don't have much of a chance unless they're in Putin's party. I don't think the other parties have much of a chance to get in someone for President. A little competition helps more than hurts.

[Misha]

Well for those who feel the opposition should have chances...

Name the opposition, and why they would be good candidates.

I personally would have preferred someone of the caliber of Boris Nemtsov. He provided a wonderful analysis of the Putin years that can be downloaded here: http://www.nemtsov.ru/docs/putin-itogi.pdf. At least, he had tried to address the structural problems facing Russia and had some innovative ideas as to how to reform Russia. Sadly, in Putin's Russia, people like Nemtsov are either ignored or subtly discredited by the state-controlled media.

[Fashionista]

Is the western world apathocratic instead of democratic?

Nah, it's just Russians are slightly hysterical 

[Shadow]

Don't keep up with Russian politics and don't know any names but I'm sure there are plenty of good smart Russians that would make excellent leaders but they just don't have much of a chance unless they're in Putin's party. I don't think the other parties have much of a chance to get in someone for President. A little competition helps more than hurts.

Which proves that nobody has been able to make enough impact to be known in the West, or to be popular in Russia.
You can say it is the State, but if any candidate got support from the olicharchs, he could give the State a run for the money.
Then again...State and olicharchs are said to be quite equal. 

[Misha]

Which proves that nobody has been able to make enough impact to be known in the West, or to be popular in Russia.
You can say it is the State, but if any candidate got support from the olicharchs, he could give the State a run for the money.
Then again...State and olicharchs are said to be quite equal. 

Well, it is hard to be popular in Russia when all the television stations ignore you and the few times they actually feature you it is to subtly criticize you to prove the greatness of Putin and his plan. Medvedev did not even have to campaign and he got close to all the Russian airtime.

[ScottinCrimea]

Don't keep up with Russian politics and don't know any names but I'm sure there are plenty of good smart Russians that would make excellent leaders but they just don't have much of a chance unless they're in Putin's party. I don't think the other parties have much of a chance to get in someone for President. A little competition helps more than hurts.

How many in the US are dissatisfied with the candidates in the current US election?  We have much that is similar in the US.  We have plenty of good, smart Americans that would make excellent leaders but they don't have much of a chance unless they're in the Democratic/Republican party.

[Misha]

How many in the US are dissatisfied with the candidates in the current US election?  We have much that is similar in the US.  We have plenty of good, smart Americans that would make excellent leaders but they don't have much of a chance unless they're in the Democratic/Republican party.

Well, at least in the United States it is not George W. Bush pulling the strings to decide who will be the next president. At least candidates have to compete for the nomination and McCain is not guaranteed that he will win the presidency, simply because he is a Republican like Bush.

[ScottinCrimea]

No, we're a capitalist society.  It's the ones with the money who decide who runs and who is elected.  No financial support, no candidacy.

[Misha]

No, we're a capitalist society.  It's the ones with the money who decide who runs and who is elected.  No financial support, no candidacy.

I am not saying that the United States system of democracy is perfect (far from it), but it is disingenuous to gloss over the problems with Russian democracy (or lack thereof) by putting up the straw man of corporate America's control of American politics.

[Misha]

The Moscow Times had a nice opinion piece that summed it up well. An excerpt:

The presidential election campaign, which was carried out in a classic authoritarian fashion, was a complete farce. Medvedev's three political "rivals" were reminiscent of the three "competitors" who were propped up by Karimov in Uzbekistan's December election. Medvedev refused to participate in the presidential debates. In the end, the "debates" were limited to the Kremlin's three other handpicked candidates hurling insults at each other without much enthusiasm, while tiptoeing around subjects the authorities might deem too sensitive. At the same time, the Putin-Medvedev duo dominated television airwaves as usual, occupying 70 percent to 80 percent of all election coverage.

The campaign was devoid of any criticism of the Kremlin, which meticulously orchestrated every scene. Viewers were treated to a smorgasbord of staged events: Medvedev with Putin, Medvedev with children, Medvedev with pensioners, Medvedev helping the Serbs give the Americans a licking. These dishes were peppered with Medvedev's meaningless quips about incorporating "the rule of law," "putting people first" and "helping small businesses," with no specifics given about how to accomplish these bold tasks.

It is no wonder that Medvedev's success was the predictable final act of the dull and boring theatrical show that the Kremlin called the presidential election.

Source: http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2008/03/03/006.html

[wxman]

How many in the US are dissatisfied with the candidates in the current US election?  We have much that is similar in the US.  We have plenty of good, smart Americans that would make excellent leaders but they don't have much of a chance unless they're in the Democratic/Republican party.

What other parties could there be? If one is liberal, that is pretty much a democrat. If one is conservative, one's pretty much a Republican. Can't be an almost liberal party or almost conservative party. People generally fall into 2 categories, liberal or conservative. It's just how far left or right you are. Ralph Nader has his Green party, but in reality it's nothing more than the ultra left of the democratic party. Ross Perot's party was nothing more than the far right of the Republican party. Over the last 30 years, both parties have become less extreme, although many would argue that. The mainstream presidential candidates reflect that very centralist movement. Perhaps that is why less people are voting as they see no difference between the candidates. Maybe more would vote if the parties selected more extremists, as fear of having a far left candiate would get out the conservative vote out, and vice versa.

[BillyB]

You can say it is the State, but if any candidate got support from the oligarchs, he could give the State a run for the money.
Then again...State and oligarchs are said to be quite equal. 

C'mon Shadow, you've been around the FSU long enough to know that oligarchs can enjoy their wealth any way they want as long as they don't get involved with politics. Oil tycoon sitting in jail right now because he pissed off political men, not because he cheated on taxes. All oligarchs probably cheated on taxes anyway but they're not in jail.

If what happened in Russia happened here in America with assassinations of journalists and the media becoming State controlled/Pro Bush and Bush staying in power somehow/someway, there would be an uproar, not a pat on the back for a job well done as many are giving to Putin.

[wxman]

Pretty comical. Protest in Moscow and subsequent arrests.  Oddly some of them were arrested at McDonalds who were not in the protest, but who were known to be protesters from other events. Of course, it didn't hurt that press was helping the police by identifying those protesters. Gotta love those police states. Also the amazing 90% turnout in some regions.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-03-03-voa61.cfm

[wxman]

But of course marches by pro Kremlim youth NASHI group were allowed. They kind of remind me of the Hitler youth movement. Put a ring in their nose and they will follow blindly.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2008/03/04/012.html