When is it OK to ask a RW to change her religion for you

[Eduard]

A couple of weeks ago I started working with a AM client who is a devout Catholic.
Within a weeks time he started communicating with several RW and he liked one in particular very much. They exchange 3 or 4 letters, basic stuff, nothing too deep or romantic yet and then he decided to tell her that a woman he'd marry will have to convert to catholicism and ask her if she would be willing to do that if they get to that point. He's logic was that he'd rather let her know early on, before they get too deep into relationship, and if she is not open to changing her faith for him, not to waste time persuing a relationship with her.
Now I think this is a very important and serious issue, so I hope we can have a mature and interesting discussion here.
Now, here is my opinion:
I shared with my client that in my opinion it was way too early to talk about changing her faith in order to marry him. I told him "you are just getting to know each other, she doesn't have any feelings for you, you are just a prospect for her, probably one of a number of prospects, just like she is for you. If she is deeply religious and has a strong faith, why in the world would she even consider changing it for you - the person she hasn't even met in real life, somebody she just saw a few pictures of and exchanged a few basic letters? Someone that she does not have a relationship with yet, or feelings for? If her faith is very strong, most likely she will just tell you "NO" and forget about you and move on to other prospects. If her faith is strong but she said "YES"  AT THIS POINT then she probably is not sincere and has ulterior motives to marry you. I think that if a persons faith is sincere it is one of the most powerful emotions/feelings a person could have. People have been killing other people because of faith differences from the beginning of time!!! that's how strong it is!!!
There is only one thing that can be stronger, and it is LOVE. If a person falls in love with you she might compromise and convert to a different faith to be with the one she loves. The point is that before you talk to someone about changing their faith, love must be there first IMO! So you need to take your chances and develop a relationship, fall in love with each other first, before giving her an ultimatum like that.
The other scenario is that she might not be very religious and it might not even be a big issue for her when it comes to that point.
Try to put yourself in her place. You are talking to 5-6 girls right now. You have a very strong faith. If one of these girls told you at this point that the future marriage is not possible unless you, a catholic man convert and become a baptist or Pentecostal or Russian orthodox, doesn't matter which one, what would you do?
Probably just say "next" and forget her. I don't think that there is a huge issue here, you both are Christians and just happen to belong to 2 different schools of thought on Christianity, but you still believe in the same God and if you two fall in love with each other it shouldn't be a huge obstacle to your happiness together. I've seen a Jew marrying a Muslim and a Catholic marrying a Jew and they live happily.
The bottom line is: let love come first, then talk religion."
This is just my opinion, it would be interesting to see what other people think on this subject.

[Jazzyclassy]

I think it is never ok to ask , unless she wants that herself

you can not ask a person to change his/her religion just cos of one's wish

Religion is very strong core, to ask to change it means to ask a person to betray him/herself

[Misha]

If religion is that important in his life, I believe he should be honest with the women that he meets. Asking to convert after a few letters would be too much, but they should know that he is very devout. If religion is that important to him, why does he not look for someone who is already Catholic? Isn't close to 20% of the population of Belarus Catholic? It would make more sense for him to look for somebody who already shares his faith and beliefs, though it might mean that he will have to look longer and harder.

[Fashionista]

If it is so important to him he should inform the woman he is in correspondence with as soon as possible. Not ask her to convert, but inform her that it will be absolutely necessary if their relashionship progress. I think it is the same sort of issue as interest in getting married itself or having children: you put it in your profile and stick to it from the initial search of potential candidates.

[Eduard]

I think it is never OK to ask , unless she wants that herself

you can not ask a person to change his/her religion just cos of one's wish

Religion is very strong core, to ask to change it means to ask a person to betray him/herself

You have a great point!!! But the reality is that it does happen every day. A man's or a woman's family will not support the union unless the other party converts. many people, both men and women don't want to alienate their family and will ask their loved one to convert. The point is: it does happen quite often in our intergrated society. Some people have a dual faith ceremony so no one has to compromise, which IMO is probably the most fair way to go, but other people have too much pressure from their family that they love and respect. So it can get complicated.

[Fashionista]

I think it is never ok to ask , unless she wants that herself

you can not ask a person to change his/her religion just cos of one's wish

Religion is very strong core, to ask to change it means to ask a person to betray him/herself

But she can be flexible on the matter, or have some kind of special ecumenistic type of spirituality. Heck, she even can be a buddist 

[Faux Pas]

It is not okay to insist that one convert to another's religion. That should remain a freedom of choice and protected as such. The way one chooses to worship if they choose at all should be left up to the individual. IMHO. With that said, I think it would be completely acceptable to declare very early if one was a devout Catholic, Muslim, Baptist or any other religion and searching for the same or willing to convert. This way, for those that hold their religion as that high priority, all the cards would be on the table. It seems to me if someone expects a possible mate to convert to their particular religion and doesn't tell them until much later, is very misleading. I'm sure there are other ways to sabotage a relationship but, that seems like a sure fire way.

[BC]

If belief in one or other religion is so strong that a requirement for the woman to change is 'set' then one should look for a woman of the same religion from the beginning.  Anything less is... well... less if not nothing..

Much like other aspects such as desire for children, this is nothing to be fooled around with.

Treat love like addition.. 1+1=2..

Treat other 'requirements' like multiplication, keeping in mind that 1 * 0= 0

(1+1)*(1*0)=zilch, nada, nullo, nothing, nichiwoo

[Shadow]

I fully agree that he was right to ask it early on. If he is devout and feels that his wife should have the same religion, he must set this as one of the priorities. It will limit his choice, but on the other hand will prevent problems later on.
One should never convert their religion because of pressure from family, as it will lead to the religion not being in ones heart and soul any more.

I am sure that you can find women who are equally religious and of the same faith amongst the millions who are seeking.
Now if the priorities say that she must be a 25 year old pretty blonde and virgin as well then you might consider telling your client to start praying for a miracle. 

[UTRO]

If this is a Priority for him and he won't accept anything less, it must be told from the Get Go.... It will definitely 'weed' the suitors down for him.
Would you tell someone, after getting to know her that, "oh by the way I have 4 Kids and a Criminal Record?"

[mischief]

I also agree that it should be mentioned right away... so both parties know what they are getting themselves into... there are plenty of catholics in FSU and there are plenty of women who do not care about any religion... It would bother me if religion were a deciding factor in building a relationship... I would definitely not get involved with this person and prefer to know upfront...

[myrddin]

Totally agree: Something that important to him has to be way up front, like in his profile.

Since he's already communicating with these women, he has to tell them.  There is probably a gentler way of saying it than, "you must convert", but he can't let it slide. 

And I don't think it is okay to ask someone to convert "for you".  (I think many people these days try to downplay the importance of religious compatibility and it leads to problems.)  But the upshot is this guy has a dealbreaker that he didn't mention before.

[Eduard]

I think you all make great points and I appreciate your input!
There is a place on a profile where a person put their religion. My client's profile states "Chrisitian" and I only contact women who's profile says "Christian" and skip the ones who put Atheist or Muslim for instance. But I've never seen anyone mention which denomination of the Christian faith they belong to. Is there a profound difference between Catholicism and Russian orthodox? This is an honest question if someone has an answer I'd love to learn. I've been to Russian orthodox church wedding ceremonies, and a few Catholic ones. As far as I know both believe in the sanctity of 3 - the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit. The rituals were slightly different and the icons in Russian churches look different (uniquely Greek&Russian style). Other than that what are the differences?

[Fashionista]

I think you all make great points and I appreciate your input!
There is a place on a profile where a person put their religion. My client's profile states "Chrisitian" and I only contact women who's profile says "Christian" and skip the ones who put Atheist or Muslim for instance. But I've never seen anyone mention which denomination of the Christian faith they belong to. Is there a profound difference between Catholicism and Russian orthodox? This is an honest question if someone has an answer I'd love to learn. I've been to Russian orthodox church wedding ceremonies, and a few Catholic ones. As far as I know both believe in the snctity of 3 - the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit. The rituals were slightly different and the icons in Russian churches look different (uniquely Greek&Russian style). Other than that what are the differences?

For example there is no purgatory in Orthodox dogma, so there is no place for ppl who betrayed their denomination and switch to Catholism to go except <i> you know where</i> 

[Fashionista]

BTW I checked it out: according to Pope John Paul II, if Catholic and Ortodox persons decide to get married no one of them has to convert.

Also it doesn't solve the problem with him being devoted Catholic. I am afraid that most of the FSU women who put "Christian" in their profile would freack out discovering that he doesn't believe in , say, divorce or abortion and what is his position on sex protection?

[AnastassiaAsh]

As lots of people said here: one should state such things in his/her profile from the very beginning and search among those who will fall into this category, not ask for conversion those who don't share their faith. He told her about it too late.  Time lost...

Eduard, I am sorry, but after your 'opinion' i felt like 
Are you out of your m..?  How can you even advise this? Was that a joke or for the sake of argument? 

Why do we all have profiles then? Following your way of thinking - there should be only pictures, men should just first meet their women and then work on their relationship and when they are madly in love start asking the questions and hope that for the sake of their strong feelings she would accept all of his answers and that will be a match.  I can't even wrap my brain around this, it is so weird...

[UTRO]

I think you all make great points and I appreciate your input!
There is a place on a profile where a person put their religion. But I've never seen anyone mention which denomination of the Christian faith they belong to.

The simple Religious statement of 'Christian' doesn't mean very much these days! Just like the Muslim who further along into his/her Profile states that they 'Drink'
I have seen Devout Christian Women and Men write into their 'Personal Message' or 'Interest Column', "Devoted to Christ", "Partner must be Willing to Accept the Lord", etc...
When such a message is written into a Profile, it is being completely upfront with a potential mate. There becomes little question regarding the importance of this. If the message isn't completely understood, at least the Contact now has a Big Question to immediately ask your Client!!

[Eduard]

Totally agree: Something that important to him has to be way up front, like in his profile.

Since he's already communicating with these women, he has to tell them.  There is probably a gentler way of saying it than, "you must convert", but he can't let it slide. 

And I don't think it is okay to ask someone to convert "for you".  (I think many people these days try to downplay the importance of religious compatibility and it leads to problems.)  But the upshot is this guy has a dealbreaker that he didn't mention before.

well he just started communicating with them and only exchanged 5-6 letters at this point.
I see your point and I don't disagree, I'm just trying to figure out what would be best for everyone involved (both my client and the women)
I guess my thought process is: Say there is no internet, and you meet a woman at a social dance or a grocery store. You find her attractive and the feeling is mutual. You go out on 1,2,3,4 dates, you seem to be falling in love and getting serious. Now it seems to me that according to your theory he should be telling her on the first date that he is Catholic and unless she is of the same denomination he will not be able to marry her. Does it happen like this in the real world? Not in my personal experience. I lived in Brooklyn, NY for many years and I watched guys and gals of different backgrounds and religions fall in love, dating and getting married. I actually used to be in the wedding business and observed many mixed religion marriages of a lot more opposite kind than in this case.
I just can't imagine that in real life I would be telling a woman that I like a lot, that I'm a devout Catholic and I expect my wife to be the same on the first or second date!
Internet dating is a bit different, but seems like the same rules would apply?
I haven't made up my mind on this issue yet and appreciate any input from you guys.

[mischief]

I do not think that there is profound difference... they use the same Bible afterall just interpret it the way it works for them... so there are some doctrinal differences... traditions and the way of celebrating holidays slightly different... catholic church is more legalistic ... catholics tend to go to church more often; actually read the Bible and have more intellectual approach while orthodox church relies more on spiritual practices...

[Eduard]

As lots of people said here: one should state such things in his/her profile from the very beginning and search among those who will fall into this category, not ask for conversion those who don't share their faith. He told her about it too late.  Time lost...

Eduard, I am sorry, but after your 'opinion' i felt like 
Are you out of your m..?  How can you even advise this? Was that a joke or for the sake of argument? 

Why do we all have profiles then? Following your way of thinking - there should be only pictures, men should just first meet their women and then work on their relationship and when they are madly in love start asking the questions and hope that for the sake of their strong feelings she would accept all of his answers and that will be a match.  I can't even wrap my brain around this, it is so weird...

Anastasia,
my client only asked me about this day before yesterday, I gave him my opinion but I wanted to see what other people think on the subject because I wasn't a 100% sure. Your suggesting that I'm out of my mind for having an opinion that is not exactly like your's doesn't fall into "mature" discussion category that we are trying to have here. I don't believe that 1 or 2 days will make any difference in this case and if someone here has valid arguments to convince me that I'm wrong I will definitely change my position. Besides, my client is reading this thread too, and it's totally up to him how he wants to procede from here...

[AnastassiaAsh]

Besides, my client is reading this thread too, and it's totally up to him how he wants to procede from here...

Ok, cool. 

[Fashionista]

Eduard, I am sorry, but after your 'opinion' i felt like 
Are you out of your m..? 

"Mind" is not a bad word. But the suggested adgective is 

[myrddin]

It doesn't really matter what the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy are, your client wants to marry a Catholic.  That's gotta be explained in some way beyond choosing a category from a drop down menu.  Even if there's a box for "Catholic", he needs to add something like "My faith is very important to me" in the description.  And tell the ladies now.  Do it nicely, but tell them!

It would indeed be odd to meet someone in say, a grocery store, and start discussing religious beliefs right away.  Frankly, I think that is a huge advantage to online dating - you get to know these things up front.   Take advantage of that.

[UTRO]

I believe that your Client is very different than 99% of all your Clients and Contacts who state that they are Christians. I believe he is what my Brother calls a True Christian, a Believer. I call myself a Protestant, but am I really? I've never been Baptised and I never attend Church. Theologically speaking, I am nothing! My Brother is so Devout that if I stated to him that I was a Christian, Protestant, Catholic, etc... he'd laugh, scold me, send me another bible and lecture me for the umpteenth time about accepting the Lord into my life! Thankfully he lives 5000km away. If a Client tells you that he will not accept a Woman into his life if she isn't willing to accept his Lord Jesus Christ, I'd strongly suggest that you tell any possible Contact before she meets him. If indeed he is a Fundamentalist and he states to you that he will never marry a nonbeliever, you wouldn't be doing him or her any favour if she isn't accepting of this. This is the difference between somebody who is a True Christian and someone who uses it as a generalization to describe themself....
I have friends who've married Jews, Muslims and Christians.... but for them Religion was not a deciding factor whether they ever married or not. Like your friends back in Brooklyn....
If your Service was for Casual Dating and Friendship this really wouldn't be an issue, introductory couples could figure things out for themselves. Your Service is for Serious Relationships leading to Marriage. Here lies the difference.     

[smartcat]

Eduard, this country ( Former soviet Union) had been pressed by communists in regards to any religion during 70 years. Three generations had been raised with idea that religion is something close to shamanism and intelligent people should not pay attention to. "Opium for people", by Lenin... aha.
Since late 80, early 90s it started to come back. To a pagan country! People dicovered that visiting church is moral, good, etc. Or it is just fashionable.
Funny that many of them were secretly baptised by parents or grandmas in early childhood. Well, as pagans are supersticious (oh, yes, local people are!), and think that a baby can be more healthy and lucky by going through this procedure.
So they could call themselves "Christians" after. There are thousands of them. At the marriage sites too.
I dare to assert that  most part of them never went to communion service and they visit church on Easter (still not to stay through all the service). Either visit a church to put a candle when they had a bad night dream about a grandma or if any of family members are sick.
Do you want a small experiment? During a phone call ask any of girls you are calling to tell you an Orthodox pray by heart. In Russian. Like "Pater Noster". Will you hear something which is familiar to her and fast pronouced by the woman?

Unfortunately or luckily these ex-country lands mostly stay like this.
As exceptions I mark Western Ukraine, Parts of Belorussia, Baltics and Georgia\Armenia. If we talk about Christianity.

About the rest of - if these people goes to Christianity seriously - it MEANS. They are often exenthusiastic, as new-Christians-turned-from-pagans can be.
My good friend, the same "pagan", came to in her 24. Well, she started fasting, while she was pegnant, she started to cross her mouth and to read prays in front of any meals (even regular, in public places) her 3 y.o. daughter should wear long skirts only (even on a playground), she got opinion from her priest is her hubby's job sinny (taking video of senators and pop-singers). etc, etc.
Do you want it? Maybe it's still better to be "a pagan"
Ah, one more point. Many of Orthodox "pagans" find Orthodox Christianity to be something, uniting them to their motherland. So it's not easy to cut even this issue. Like to tell " I am not Russian anymore, I am not Moldovian"....

You must take all this to consideration , when you say "My client's profile states "Chrisitian" and I only contact women who's profile says "Christian" and skip the ones who put Atheist or Muslim for instance. But I've never seen anyone mention which denomination of the Christian faith they belong to. Is there a profound difference between Catholicism and Russian orthodox? "

Back to your client. Maybe the good start is to ask him what he does want from his wife.
Maybe he is a type of "Christer" and all that is most important to him is a Church ceremony wedding.

In this case it's useful to know that church marriages between Catholics and Orthodoxes is allowed. And Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Church both ways recognize marriages (even mixed) done in other church.
Orthodoxes can accept Catholics, Lutherans and Baptists to marry an Orthodox. Without changing religion. But don't reccomend. Only thing is : you must promise a priest that children born in such a marriage should be Orthodoxes.

The Catholic can marry an Orthdox in Catholic church too. But they should get a permission from a bishop, as far as I know, and both have to attend the church for a while before they get marry.

The questions to a man must be
- does he want her to attend the church with him every Sunday?
- what about his ideas for contaceptives? (woderful point, Fashionista said early about)
-any fasting?
-anything else... Your female russian friends can help.

Then your work can be easier...