On Line Dating Sites

[Misha]

So your sister-in-law is an average woman.  Nothing wrong with that.  To compare, we have a friend in Crimea in her early 40's who is an above average woman and has more suitors than she can handle.  I have personally met two of them, one an OB/GYN and the other owns his own construction company.  Both nice looking, both very wealthy and both wanting to marry her.  My point still stands.  From what I have personally seen, an ABOVE average woman in this age range still has plenty of options

Well, what you really mean is that very wealthy women will have men who want to marry them. This really has nothing to do with average, but rather with the exceptional. Really, how many women in Russia or Ukraine own their own construction companies and are very wealthy? Do you really think that the other 99.9% of the women in their 40s looking are going to have an easy time of it? Also, why do you think these women are not married if they have so many suitors? Quite simple: I am certain they want very wealthy men. And who do you think the very wealthy men are looking to marry? The beautiful twenty year olds as they do not need the money of your 40-year-old acquaintances. Your exceptions, in a way, prove my point.

[ScottinCrimea]

Well, what you really mean is that very wealthy women will have men who want to marry them. This really has nothing to do with average, but rather with the exceptional. Really, how many women in Russia or Ukraine own their own construction companies and are very wealthy? Do you really think that the other 99.9% of the women in their 40s looking are going to have an easy time of it? Also, why do you think these women are not married if they have so many suitors? Quite simple: I am certain they want very wealthy men. And who do you think the very wealthy men are looking to marry? The beautiful twenty year olds as they do not need the money of your 40-year-old acquaintances. Your exceptions, in a way, prove my point.

gabaub, You totally misread what I wrote.  Read her SUITORS that I met were both very wealthy and try rewriting your post.

[Misha]

gabaub, You totally misread what I wrote.  Read her SUITORS that I met were both very wealthy and try rewriting your post.

Sorry, my mistake. You are right in that I misread your post. Haven't had my first cup of coffee yet LOL. Still, I have my doubts. If they have so many rich suitors, why are they not married? In my experience, rich suitors don't have any problems finding wives.

[Ronnie]

Scott,
I gotta side with Gabaub in a generic way.  Not say you witnessed something different but you may have seen an anomaly.  A well-off attractive RW in his forties will be pursued to the ends of earth by 20 yo models.  Most 40 yo simply can't compete with them unless the RM is wise as well as good looking and rich.  And, the two RW examples you mentioned probably exhausted that population!

[Misha]

Well, in my experience Russian women can be quite aggressive in the pursuing especially when they are in their thirties. On a number of occasions, when I was still single, I have had women insist that I join them at their table. They would not take no for an answer. If a man has a lot of money and is not married in Russia, he will be pursued by women young and old, and I doubt he will wait around for a woman who can't make up her mind. A lot of women also a lot better than "average" will be there to convince otherwise.

[ScottinCrimea]

Ronnie and gabaub, It is apparent that my post wasn't clear.  I weas talking about One woman only and mentioed the two suitors orf hers that I had met.

While I don't disagree with your observations, you make a couple of flawed assumptions.  The first is that all the women over 40 are desperate to get married.  In my experience, having met many of them, very few were willing to settle for any man just because he had money, looks, etc.  They were looking for a companion who they could share their life with, not just their home or their bed.  they would prefer to live alone than just to settle.  Their outlook wasn't a whole lot different than the average 40+ single American female.  I don't know why we have categorized them as being so different.

The second faulty assumption, which I had tried to point out before, is that the higher the quality of the woman, be it due to looks, education, sophistication, personality, etc., the better the odds that there are more men pursuing her.  But similar to the US, the higher her education, for example, the smaller the pool of men that she would be interested in if equal education were one of her priorities.

If you have an average or below average FSUW who places marriage as her highest priority, she will certainly act in the manner that you have witnessed, especially since those in the average range would be in the majority.  She would have to use aggression to fight for her share.

The third faulty assumption is that all wealthy Russian men want a 20 something hotbody for a wife.  Maybe there are men who actually prefer someone that they share more with than a bed.  I haven't heard much about hot chicks throwing themselves at Bill Gates and I haven't heard anything about him dumping his older wife and hitting the discos in search of some fun.  I'm sure that those who are more wealthy have a certain class of woman throwing themselves at them, but that doesn't mean that they are accepted, or even perceived as wife material.

We are often quick to judge RM and RW differently from ourselves.  If you suddenly came into a lot of money, would you change the type of woman you would want for a wife?

What I witnessed was not an anomaly, but it was not the average FSUW behaving in the average way.  I was specifically trying to point out that there are plenty of FSUW who are NOT average and don't fit our preconceived concepts of desperation or lack of options.  Maybe one of the reasons for this misconception is that the average FSUW is at a higher level than the average AW in many ways so when we see nice-looking, educated women acting in a desperate manner we don't see the whole picture.

[Ronnie]

Scott, I don't think I made any of the assumptions you listed but be that as it may, I will only say that successful, eligible 40+ RM are nearly all married or, if not, they have no intention of getting married which is far more the norm in Europe than in the States.  Further, a RW (or any european woman) married to an older wealthy man will permit him to have a mistress or two before she will consider divorce.  Thus these men and hardly every really available for marriage.

The RM who were pursuing the lady you mentioned, if single, were absolutely a rare breed of cat.  So it's not that there's desparation on the part of the middle aged, above average RW, it's just that she and all others like her have such a small pool to fish in.  Many simply don't bother casting a line.  Others decide they will "settle" as long as there may be an economic or physiological benefit.

I had a short relationship once with a 46 yo in Odessa.  She was a former stage actress, singer and ballerina.  A 20 yo could not have a better figure!  Her ex (also an actor) wanted to get back together with her but was unwilling to give up his new younger wife in the bargain.  So she denied herself male companionship until she was convinced to list herself with an agency.  I was her first suitor after she listed.. I soon felt her artsy personality was not for me (she'd burst out singing as we walked along the street).  I hear she later got married to guy from California..(maybe my neighbor now!).  My point is, she was alone for 8 years (no dates) before she listed.  I can't imagine a more quality UW than she was.

BTW, she would has still been in Ukraine today but the straw that broke the camel's back was that her neighbor stole everything out of her apartment while she was on vacation. (including her momentos from her years on the stage and the foreign tours).  He was arrested and convicted but she received not a dime of restitution or any of her property.  She loved Paris and I was hoping she'd be able to find a guy from Western Europe..but alas..she's in LA LA land somewhere.

[Misha]

The first is that all the women over 40 are desperate to get married.  In my experience, having met many of them, very few were willing to settle for any man just because he had money, looks, etc.

Well, being desperate to get married is quite different from having men wanting to date you and to want to marry you. Most high status men that I have met in their forties and fifties were married and had a much younger mistress. They did not stay single for very long. One man in this category that I had met had recently remarried to a much younger woman. In my experience, a 40-year-old woman who plays hard to get with a rich man in Russia will very soon see her suitor married off to another woman.

They were looking for a companion who they could share their life with, not just their home or their bed.  they would prefer to live alone than just to settle.  Their outlook wasn't a whole lot different than the average 40+ single American female.  I don't know why we have categorized them as being so different.

Well, my guess is that a lot of 40-year-old American divorcées likely say that they prefer to be alone and that is their choice. Many of them are probably alone not out of choice, but because they have no choice. It is easier on the ego to say that you are alone because you are not willing to settle than because you can't find anyone.

The second faulty assumption, which I had tried to point out before, is that the higher the quality of the woman, be it due to looks, education, sophistication, personality, etc., the better the odds that there are more men pursuing her.  But similar to the US, the higher her education, for example, the smaller the pool of men that she would be interested in if equal education were one of her priorities.

Yes, that pool would be smaller and that smaller pool would be pursuing other women, usually much younger. Let's take your average CEO in his 40's or 50's who just got divorced. Who is he likely to marry? The above-average 40 year old or the above-average 30 or 20-year-old?

If you have an average or below average FSUW who places marriage as her highest priority, she will certainly act in the manner that you have witnessed, especially since those in the average range would be in the majority.  She would have to use aggression to fight for her share.

Yes, and that is why they are often more successful. If a man is courting a prima donna who is playing hard to get is then aggressively pursued by more "average" women who make it clear to him that they are willing to be caught, quite often he will go for the more average women. However, in Russia, a rich man will be pursued by average women and the well-above average women. Playing hard-to-get would lead to failure for most women in their 40's. Don't forget Scott that there are courses offered in Moscow as to how to find and land an "oligarch." Women pay good money to learn how to seduce rich men. Many of these women are young and attractive. The competition for rich and successful men is quite fierce.

The third faulty assumption is that all wealthy Russian men want a 20 something hotbody for a wife.  Maybe there are men who actually prefer someone that they share more with than a bed.  I haven't heard much about hot chicks throwing themselves at Bill Gates and I haven't heard anything about him dumping his older wife and hitting the discos in search of some fun.  I'm sure that those who are more wealthy have a certain class of woman throwing themselves at them, but that doesn't mean that they are accepted, or even perceived as wife material.

How do you know Scott that hot chicks don't throw themselves at Bill Gates? Are you good friends with him? For all you know he may have a few mistresses on the side. It is certainly not something that he would publicize. If I look at Russia, most of the successful men that I know have a mistress on the side. It is accepted. They rarely get divorced, but their wife tolerates the mistress. The few that I did know that did get divorced married much younger women.

We are often quick to judge RM and RW differently from ourselves.  If you suddenly came into a lot of money, would you change the type of woman you would want for a wife?

Well, if I look at the men on these forums, the one thing which I do see is that once they got divorced they certainly married a different type of woman for the most part. What was our average age-gap? 16 years? Only a handful of men married women only a few years younger than them.

What I witnessed was not an anomaly, but it was not the average FSUW behaving in the average way.  I was specifically trying to point out that there are plenty of FSUW who are NOT average and don't fit our preconceived concepts of desperation or lack of options.

Well, you gave one example of one woman with two alleged suitors who was not married. Even if this is the case, I would wager that the suitors will soon be with other women, more likely younger and very attractive women and the above-average woman you mention will be single for a long time, claiming that she does not want to get married.

[Lily]

  I haven't heard much about hot chicks throwing themselves at Bill Gates and I haven't heard anything about him dumping his older wife and hitting the discos in search of some fun.  I'm sure that those who are more wealthy have a certain class of woman throwing themselves at them, but that doesn't mean that they are accepted, or even perceived as wife material.

Scott, you probably  did not heard of such cases because Bill Gates is in the U.S, and we are speaking about American hot chicks. It seems to me that if he would be in Russia, he 'd have a bunch of young female suitors trying to seduce and get him out of the family wherever he goes.

An agressive behaviour of some young women to get a rich, albeit much less than attractive man is widely described in Russian media and literature now. In this thread, it was a seduction school mentioned, and I have seen annoncements for prospective students. Once I bought a popular book about such type of school. The author gives sometimes pretty useful advice about attracting a man generally, like knowing his type of woman, but in the whole the plot is rather fairy-tale-like and improbable in real life.

[ScottinCrimea]

Some here want to turn this into an all or nothing debate, which I am trying to avoid.  Perhaps I'm not expressing myself well enough.  I think we all agree that the pool of available, suitable RM is smaller for a RW in her 40's.  I think we all agree that for MOST RW of that age, being married is preferable to being single.  The point I am trying to make is that this doesn't equate to a desperation on many RW part to grab the first guy who comes along proposing marriage.  Just look at how many more initiate divorce than RM and you will see that for many, it is preferable to be single than saddled with a husband who has a mistress, drinks too much, beats her, or any other behavior that they find unacceptable.

We keep hearing how the RW say that all the good ones are already married.  Heck, ask any AW in her 40's and she will tell you the exact same thing, but many of the male members here prove this not to be true.  There is still a pool of available quality men in both countries at any time who aren't interested in only a hot body.  The actual numbers are subject to debate.  Some men may prefer a young thing to screw around with, but when it comes time to settle down they prefer someone of comparable qualities other than sex drive.  KenC is one example.  He was not looking for a younger wife, he was looking for a certain class of woman.  The fact that he found one so much younger is irrevalent.  If she had been 15 years older, by his own admission he would have been more comfortable with it in the initial stages.

I guess the point that I am trying to make is that if one thinks that by choosing to go for older women because their sense of desperation will make him more likely to be acceptable to them, he may be settling for those who, out of a lack of true quality, see themselves with no other options.  The quality women of any age, in any country, still have plenty of options.

[Misha]

I think we all agree that the pool of available, suitable RM is smaller for a RW in her 40's.  I think we all agree that for MOST RW of that age, being married is preferable to being single.  The point I am trying to make is that this doesn't equate to a desperation on many RW part to grab the first guy who comes along proposing marriage.

I guess the point that I am trying to make is that if one thinks that by choosing to go for older women because their sense of desperation will make him more likely to be acceptable to them, he may be settling for those who, out of a lack of true quality, see themselves with no other options.

Scott,

It is a question of competition. The more suitors that a woman has the harder it will be for you to stand out and be noticed. Sure, a very beautiful and intelligent 40-year-old woman may not be desperate, but she won't have the same line-up of men trying to get her attention as the stunning and bright 25-year-old. Neither will grab the first guy that come by, but one may have her pick of dozens (if not hundreds of men) and the other will have to make due with a much smaller pool of suitors. A sincere letter to a 40-year-old is likely to get a quick response as opposed to the gorgeous 25-year-old.

[mark2353]

I am glad this topic came up because I been thinking about posting a question how many of you gentlemen that married RW are related to Mr Gates?. It seems that the expectations of all these ladies are of that level. I read their posting "financially secured".  I do not know if this is coaching of the agency or ... 
they do not want just a husband well employed they are asking for more. So for you that did not jump this hurdle be happy! 

mark

[ambach123]

Mark, money and this pursuit has been discussed elsewhere.

This pursuit is not inexpensive. The ladies also know that, and they are smart to look for " financially stable "; unless you are I don't think you will succeed. I have been told that most women would require a lot of financial information before they accept your proposal.

You need about 30 K + cash in expenses to get to the level that she comes here; and the real expenses start after she gets here; and perhaps the biggest is the loss of a second income upon which almost all married people in USA count on.

In my opinion, if you don't have that kind of money, you should stay out.

I believe there was a time when a AM with little money could succeed, those days are gone for good.

[djfourmonie]

 My 1 Cent because I haven't been at it long enough to have 2 cents...

 This thread did get off track. I would agree women world-wide over 40 have a much harder time than younger women do. Just look at any single's site, single's social, whatever and the women over 35 out number those that are younger.

 Its because many Men fall into two columns -

 Those looking for wives/mother of their unborn children

 Those looking for a companion

 One could argue that a dog would make a better companion, especially those "set in their ways" but that's for another thread.

 In any case I fall into the first column, I am 37, never married and no children. If I wanted somebody over 40 with little desire to have children that late in her life, I for sure don't have to leave North America to find one. In fact you can push that number back to mid 30's, especially if they have children. I run into quite alot of that.

 Its next to impossible to date women as young as 25, even if I look no older than 25 (have mercy I am Black, it don't crack, no gray, no winkles, pictures to prove it posted elsewhere) as I rather be honest about my age and my desires. Instead of combing the countryside, I rather look overseas. I prefer Western Europe for obvious reasons and I shouldn't have to spell them out.

 I have been moving towards the East after having conversations with another Black American that married a Russian Lady and also after visiting Ukraine myself.

 I only spent 2.5 days there. I went to visit a woman I met a few months earlier on LL (Lucky Lovers). She wasn't what I thought she would be, we remain good friends and talk every so often.

 Not sure what to make of LL as after that, it somewhat dried up. I get an occasional "You Got Mail" but I believe these profiles to be a bit fake. Not to say a women that attractive wouldn't be into me, but a bit hard to believe.

 I joined two other sites one of them being Elena's based on good reviews here and elsewhere. Thus far it hasn't bared much fruit, but that's how my friend found his wife, so I'm sticking with it. I have bought one email address thus far, but the girl isn't what I thought she would be either. I will buy the address of another lady later today and see how that goes.

 Its early days however the attack plan has changed, I plan on spending at least 2 months in Europe early next year to focus on just finding the woman I want. Could be in Scandinavia, Germany, Poland or Moldova, we shall see.
 



 

[msmoby_ru]

Ronnie, there are serious problems in dating the RW who are already here. This has been discussed in detail in this forum.

The consensus is that you don't want to touch one, at least in this lifetime.

Not the least of this is that most often they broke the law and came here as a visitor and overstayed, and are looking for husbands.

Read the news item about 33 RW arrested exactly for this by Homeland Security.

The next category is those who ditched the husbands who brought them here; I have met a few, they are socially climbing and simply nauseating.

OMG.. another ambach generalisation... WHY - if the FSUW in the USA are SOoo bad, would you be looking for women fromt the same countries ?

I'm sure that for every FSUW who fits you descriptions, there are many who would make fine wives. I know of one particular lady in the Denver, Colorodo area .. early 40's attractive , English Perfect ( Prof in English in Russia )- just moved to the States to be with her Ma, Pa and Brother, etc.

This woman is none of the things you mention ... I'm surprised more guys don't look closer to home..

[msmoby_ru]

I have the same requirements as Roykirk has except I insist that they be never married before and over 29.

Kiss goodbye to some fine women, then .. failed marriages don't necessarily say something about the woman.. you will learn not to be so strict .. it might take five years ... I had VERY strict criteria, and FSUW aquaintences told me I'd never find what I was looking for ... They were almost correct.. My wife turned out to be 2 years younger than the youngest I'd set, and didn't speak such good English.

ambach - many FSU Men changed - they either sank or swam - particularly after the bank crashes in 1999 in Russia - some successful men think it's cool to have a mistress, some men took to drink.. these are examples.. would you expect a lady to stay married to a man who had changed for the worse / was disloyal?

IMHO, such women can make fine wives - as they are more wise second time around.

[Ooooops]

IMHO, such women can make fine wives - as they are more wise second time around

Think of the first marriage as a rehearsal and the second (or third) as a main performance.   

[docetae]

yes ... this is one rare time when sequels are better than the original...

[djfourmonie]

OMG.. another ambach generalisation... WHY - if the FSUW in the USA are SOoo bad, would you be looking for women fromt the same countries ?

I'm sure that for every FSUW who fits you descriptions, there are many who would make fine wives. I know of one particular lady in the Denver, Colorodo area .. early 40's attractive , English Perfect ( Prof in English in Russia )- just moved to the States to be with her Ma, Pa and Brother, etc.

This woman is none of the things you mention ... I'm surprised more guys don't look closer to home..

 I'll take shot in a dark, but not as dark as you think.

 Most CIS/FSU ladies are not interested/never crossed their mind that African-American/Black American women would be interested in them; of those that are here already.

 I should say that numbers is rather SMALL! I found one who is no longer on an IR Dating site I frequent and she was a LA resident. I was contacted yesterday on Elena's by woman I believe to be Bulgarian that IS looking for African-American and when she finds time to return my email, we'll see how it goes. She lives in Boston, MA.

 I'm all for avoiding dealing with the State Dept and INS. For somebody that speaks English without any problems and already has general understanding of American/Western culture but hasn't fully "bought" into it, which many would say is not ideal and would rather get somebody "unspoiled" by our culture.

 I agree with you, there should be a nice cache of FSU women already in the United States. Most are former students, winners of Green Card lotteries and other legit means of reaching America.

 http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_1317.html

 According to the 2008 Diversity Results (people issued Green Cards)

  Ukraine - 5,018
  Moldova - 474
  Bulgaria - 1,567
  Belarus - 1,072
 
 Look who's on the list of countries who are not eligible for Green Card Lotteries -

 Natives of the following countries were not eligible to participate in DV-2008: Brazil, Canada, China (mainland-born, excluding Hong Kong S.A.R. and Taiwan), Colombia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Haiti, India, Jamaica, Mexico, Pakistan, Peru, the Philippines, Poland, Russia, South Korea, the United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories, and Vietnam

 I think it does pay to look locally, combined with looking abroad, you might find you don't even have to leave North America to find what you want...

[djfourmonie]

yes ... this is one rare time when sequels are better than the original...

 I think that only applies in cultures that regularly marry at a young age like many FSU women do, but that is changing. Many are starting to adopt narrower age gaps and waiting longer to get married like Western Women.

  I'm still be a bit wary of divorcees as young as 23!


 

[msmoby_ru]

  
 Look who's on the list of countries who are not eligible for Green Card Lotteries -

  Poland, Russia,

.. interesting .. why exclude Poland and Russia and not most other ex FSU satellites .. ?

the United Kingdom (except Northern Ireland) and its dependent territories

... so much for the "special relationship" !!   - and WHY does my part of the UK still get a look in ?!!  .... To me that's a bit like saying if you're from Alaska you can come to live and work in the UK, but the rest of you
have to apply for a special visa !! 
 

[djfourmonie]

.. interesting .. why exclude Poland and Russia and not most other ex FSU satellites .. ?
 ... so much for the "special relationship" !!   - and WHY does my part of the UK still get a look in ?!!  .... To me that's a bit like saying if you're from Alaska you can come to live and work in the UK, but the rest of you
have to apply for a special visa !! 
 

 LOL, I don't think Brits have to jump through any special "hoops" to immigrate to America, just apply for a green card, I'm pretty sure you'll get it without much wait.

 In fact Western Europe is a breeze in terms of K1 vs K3 visas. Another friend of mine visited a woman in Sweden (she's Swedish), they hit it off so well, that a few months later he came back to Stockholm to marry her. They applied for a K3 at the US Embassy in Sweden and BAM! She had a Green Card! No muss, No Fuss. 30 days later she was in Pittsburgh, PA getting used to life in America and getting to know her in-laws.

 I understand other Western European men complaining about your women as we do about ours, but I don't think given enough time would have a problem finding a nice lady in Britain, Germany, Sweden, Spain or Denmark and still would be a considerable UPGRADE to what's generally available to us here.

 The internet if anything has had a positive effect on communications world wide and you no longer have to wonder about how other people live, think or what they have to say about the very same issues and questions you have about life in general.

  Your options are no longer LIMITED to your shores....

[groovlstk]

.. interesting .. why exclude Poland and Russia and not most other ex FSU satellites .. ?
 

I believe eligible countries change annually.

[msmoby_ru]

LOL, I don't think Brits have to jump through any special "hoops" to immigrate to America, just apply for a green card, I'm pretty sure you'll get it without much wait.

Don't worry, DJ, I was being ironic ! .. But it is obvious that the Americans favour the Irish over the Brits and seem to think Ireland is one country !  - like the USA is making some sort of political point ....

In fact Western Europe is a breeze in terms of K1 vs K3 visas.

Yep, the USA *is* making  a political point !! .. We have ( theoretical ) open "borders" in the EU and the US treats each EU nation differently... winds the EU Commission  up something chronic

I understand other Western European men complaining about your women as we do about ours, but I don't think given enough time would have a problem finding a nice lady in Britain, Germany, Sweden, Spain or Denmark and still would be a considerable UPGRADE to what's generally available to us here.

Hmm ... the "fascination" of certain FSUW was just as alluring to me... but I have a theory that this is as much down to lifestyle  and expectations of a man and their eating habits, etc...  There were Russian women - living in the west - close to where I live... why did I cast my net further?!

[GreginGa]

Kiss goodbye to some fine women, then .. failed marriages don't necessarily say something about the woman.. you will learn not to be so strict .. it might take five years ... I had VERY strict criteria, and FSUW aquaintences told me I'd never find what I was looking for ... They were almost correct.. My wife turned out to be 2 years younger than the youngest I'd set, and didn't speak such good English.

ambach - many FSU Men changed - they either sank or swam - particularly after the bank crashes in 1999 in Russia - some successful men think it's cool to have a mistress, some men took to drink.. these are examples.. would you expect a lady to stay married to a man who had changed for the worse / was disloyal?

IMHO, such women can make fine wives - as they are more wise second time around.

Ambach123
                I'm going to have to say that I think you should lighten up on some of your qualifications. Just because a lady might have been married doesnt make her a bad prospect. You might miss out on a great girl by placing these sorts of restrictions. What if the guy was abusive or cheated or was a drunk? Certainly you cant expect a nice girl to stay with that. I mean and it aint like just because some lady was married that anything is worn out.