Recommended: Focus on one FSU country, but which?

[Ronnie]

It has been written about before that a WM should chose one FSU country in which to focus his search for an FSUW - maybe even one region if that country happens to be the expansive Russian Federation.

But which?  I admit to never having traveled to Belarus, Moldova, Uzbekistan or any of the other former soviet republics.  I only visited Russia  for 1 month and Ukraine for a month before deciding I preferred Ukraine.  Ease of travel and less anti-western sentiment were two of many factors that entered into my decision

New member Mendeleyev who apparently lives in Moscow, has written about new regulations (or new ways to enforce the old ones) in his posting on the Primer on Train Travel thread.  If he doesn't repost it here, I'll paste it here as this discussion progresses.

I know this topic has been discussed before but I couldn't find a thread that was designed to deal exclusively with this topic.  I have been away (from the board) for a while.

[BillyB]

Is our objective here to choose a country or a woman?

Some guys say pick an easy, cheaper to get to, country with no visa requirements such as Ukraine.

Others go further and say choose any city or only a big city in a big FSU nation for easy of travel.

I wrote to a bunch of ladies in every nation of the FSU and chose one that I connected with and just as important, she connecting with me. She happened to be in Uzbekistan but my next choice would be three ladies in the Stavropol/Sochi region of Russia. Because I was going to Uzbekistan, my backups would have to be there too but my first choice was a solid pick from over 600 women I wrote.

Any and everybody's methods have worked but it's all up to you on what's pratical.

[I/O]

Ronnie: You know, I have thought about this one quite a deal over time and I have said several times, the FSU or even one country is too big to be chasing women from one end to the other. Personally, if I was searching again, I tend to think I would seek out a person and then search around her location also.

As for which country or which region. Pick your poison. However, perhaps factors which might be included in a criteria list are things like, long term accessability, political stability, communications infrastructure and other logistical matters. I've long thought one can find good and bad women anywhere, so the reputation of the people from a given area may not be the first thing to consider.

It seems to me that for Americans Moscow and Kiev are the logical starting points because they are the obvious points of entry. For us here in Aus, it is slightly another picture although the same can apply. Although our flying time is longer whichever way you look at it, there is a few options which crack up much the same.

Examples include Novosibirsk, Yekaterinburg, Odessa, Kiev, Kishinev, Vladivostok, Moscow and a couple of others. Give or take about 1 hour, they are all much of a muchness flying time wise.

I really do think guys should pay some consideration to locality, because you will, or should be visiting again and again. If you don't like the place or it is difficult to access, you might be less inclind to pay that one extra follow up visit and it might just have been that one more visit which told you something you really needed to know.

If I was seriously searching now, knowing what I do about various locations, I would be doing exactly as I did the first time I ever went to Russia. I would go directly to one of the far parts of Siberia, not because I think the women are better or more plentiful, but because the area fascinates me, it did as a kid, it did when I considered visiting, it did even more when I saw parts and the more I know of it the more I enjoy going there.

Others will suggest other locations and doubtless their reasons will be equally, if not more legitimate. Pick you poison, but IMO, on this subject, one should pick one poison and live on that alone for at least a while.

I/O

[Turboguy]

I read the thread about the new Visa registration rules in Russia and it does sound like a real pain.   Personally I like Russia better than Ukraine but you and others seem to feel different.   Another consideration might be to target a city with one or more good agencies in case all else fails.   Places like Barnaul (Russian Pearls) or Tver (Tver Angels & others) might be good or many cities in Ukraine.    I might also suggest considering some of the other countries partially because fewer guys go there.  Billy had luck in Uzbekistan and I am sure his gal is not the only great one there.

[Ronnie]

I suppose it's a given that there are good women in each and every location...that includes our own hometowns too, but what's the fun in that? 

While, as I said, I only looked in Russia (Moscow and Pitr) and Ukraine (many cities), I was interested to try Moldova and Belarus but never got that far. 

If we must generalize, in my own experience, I found the Russian women to be less emotional than Ukrainian but not much.  Ukrainian women seemed to me to be slightly more skilled in the lost art of cooking and homemaking, but again, not by a significant margin.

The comment about a good agency is very valid.  I suppose I gave Odessa a second and third even a 4th look because I was so impressed and comfortable with Natasha and her staff at the Adam and Eva agency on Deribasovskaya.  Her apartments were fantastic as well.

In the end the two women that impressed me the most and who rose to the top of my list were both from Dnepropetrovsk.  I used the 5-star agency there, another Angelika affiliate but can't say the experience was anywhere as good as Adam and Eva. 

I was treated wonderfully by an agency in Vinnitsa but unfortunately I can't remember the name of it.  The Angelika affiliate in Poltava was also great.  Zaporozhye, not so much.

It's a great point too, to think about the prospect of returning to your future wife's home city over the years.  If it's remote and hard/expensive to get to, that shouldn't be lightly regarded.

My only regret is that I didn't get to spend time in cities like Volgograd, Samara, Saratov or Rostov.   But I'm satisfied with the choices I made and if I had to do it all over again, well I don't even want to think about it.  I suppose I might date RWs already living in the USA.

[Taz]

I have had this same discussion with several friends. Ultimately I think you can find a good woman in almost any location. For me there are other factors I consider. I am well educated and my want my future wife to be as well. Therefore I want a woman who has had access to a good education. This will preclude many woman from the smaller or more remote areas as sometimes the university system isn’t that good there.

Then you have areas like Tomsk (in Siberia). They have the second oldest university in Russia and a great school system but it is quite remote. As mentioned if it is very difficult to get there, you might not really care to go back too often.

Quite honestly I am tired of the whole visa process in Russia. I am tired of the extra expense of it. I am tired of the hassle. I am tired of giving up my passport while they take their damn time issuing a visa or paying through the nose for expedited processing. The onerous registration process once you are in country just further reduces my desire to travel there.

I personally am not that hung up on amenities or western styled apartments. I worked in Moscow for a while and I lived in a typical soviet flat. I got tired of being shaken down by the police frequently. This only appears to happen in Ukraine when I am driving. ;-)

The other issue with the more remote republics is their infrastructure sucks for the most part unless you are in the capital city. The costs of communication are vastly higher. This will also translate into higher costs once the woman comes here and wants to frequently communicate with her family. You can call Moscow for about 2 cents a minute or spend 30 cents a minute to the more remote republics. Typically you will need to dial a cellphone which is more expensive than a land line.

When my ex originally came from Ukraine, I was paying $300/month in just phone bills back to her family and that was with the cheapest provider I could find. That is enough money to buy a decent car for her to drive. Skype or similar things could be an option but in the more remote towns/countries it won’t really be. Internet connectivity typically is very poor and voice quality will be horrendous (not always but good surely isn’t the norm).

Travel time and costs figure significantly into my plans now. After flying 15-20 hours to get to the capital city do I want to fly another 3-5 and spend another $300-500 dollars on a ticket? For example Tomsk again. I have many wonderful friends there. Great women can truly be found there and in general, the Siberians are the friendliest people I’ve ever met in the FSU.

I can fly to Moscow off-season for about $1100. Then it will cost me about another $400+ to get to Tomsk. I also have the extra costs of travel between 2 different airports that are very far apart. The flight doesn’t leave until late at night. I end up wasting 3 days just to get there. Train really isn’t an option as it is a 2 plus day trip and I waste almost 5 days of travel time. Obviously if you are in Europe you have more options and this isn’t as much of a factor as you start closer to begin with.

Another thing to consider is English ability (or your native language). The bigger areas are more likely to have English classes and in general more English speakers. I speak very good Russian so this isn’t as important INITIALLY but later it is. I would want my woman to begin taking English classes as soon as we have decided to live together. Some towns this isn’t an option.

Back to Tomsk again. Tomsk has a great school system and teach good English there. A friend of mine dated a woman who lived about an hour from Tomsk. Nobody in that town spoke any English. For her to study English, required over an hour bus ride each way to get to a class. This wasn’t really practical as she worked 10+ hour days with only 1 day off a week. Last thing she wanted to do was sit on a bus for several hours on her day off. Since she couldn’t attend class frequently, it was a slow and painful process.

I also factor in safety implications and the political climate and general attitude toward my country. That immediately crosses Belarus off my list. Too many problems for me to pursue a woman there. There is continued talk of shutting down immigration (outbound) of women.

I also consider local health issues and general ecology. Many places in the FSU are just cesspools. No way around it. Little or no thought was given to the implications of where the built a factory or it’s impact on the local populace. One of the dirtiest cities in the world I’ve ever seen was Yaroslavl in Russia. Two of the dirtiest rivers in Russia met there and made for one disgusting area. The city tries to mask it best they can but it is what it is.

With respect to ecological factors, I am not saying DON’T look there but be aware of the implications. The bloom seems to fall of the rose more quickly there if you get my drift. On the flip side, I once read a study that indicated that there is a biological component at work where there is a higher proportion of beautiful women. My experience, while anecdotal, would seem to bear this out. So if you go there, try and get the woman out of that environment before her mid 30’s.

Ultimately for me after the dust settles, I find that Ukraine is the best overall option. No place is too far away from Kyiv (overnight train ride). Lots of interesting things to do. Not a lot of anti-western sentiment. Decent infrastructure with Internet pretty easy to find. Not overly expensive to travel within the country and pretty easy.

Ultimately love is where you find it. But ultimately you need to weigh all the factors with respect to your personal situation. If you only get 2 weeks vacation a year and you waste 4 days travel time (to and from), you aren’t going to be able to spend much time searching. So perhaps an easy in and out country like Ukraine might be better.

Of course you could go to Moscow, pay a couple hundred for the visa. Over a hundred a day in an apartment and much higher costs all around. Find the balance that works for you. I get a lot of vacation time and no my way around. I’d prefer to maximize my time in general spending it with a woman rather than traveling all over the place just to get there. Of course there are cities that are great to visit and see so if in the area of course see Moscow, Piter, etc.

In summary there is no ONE way to do this. There are a myriad of vastly more inconvenient and expensive places to go. The ultimate choice is yours.

[Misha]

You can call Moscow for about 2 cents a minute or spend 30 cents a minute to the more remote republics. Typically you will need to dial a cellphone which is more expensive than a land line.

When my ex originally came from Ukraine, I was paying $300/month in just phone bills back to her family and that was with the cheapest provider I could find. That is enough money to buy a decent car for her to drive. Skype or similar things could be an option but in the more remote towns/countries it won’t really be. Internet connectivity typically is very poor and voice quality will be horrendous (not always but good surely isn’t the norm).

I use jajah.com to make calls to Russia. It is true that Moscow is cheaper, but I still get decent rates to northern Russia: 9.3 cents to Russia. The quality is exceptional and as my wife calls only once or twice a week, we spend at most $20 to $40 per month on calls. The only drawback: it is sometimes harder to connect on the weekend, but the quality is exceptional. The problem with the internet in northern Russia: the high speed internet is outrageously expensive.

[55North]

I concur regarding the practicalities of Ukraine, having spent 2 years visiting, but have now found my future in the North Caucasus.  Yes, it is a regional outpost.  Yes, it is a troubled region politically, but not nearly as bad in reality for the occasional visitor.  Indeed, it makes it intellectually stimulating.  Many, if not most of the 'ethnic Russians' are of Ukrainian descent.

Small cities such as the neighbours Pyatigorsk and Kislovodsk were established as spa resorts in the 19th century.  They are non-industrial inland resorts formally used by the whole FSU.  Very nice.  Mineral'nye Vody (Minvody) is the regional airport (via all 3 Moscow airports), and Kislovodsk is the end of the line for daily trains from St. Petersburg, Moscow and Kyiv.  All backing on to the stunning 18000 ft Caucasus mountains.  A day trip to half way up Elbrus, priceless, but only a few dollars.
 
In the last week, through a British Russian board, I have contacted 3 other couples with Pyatigorsk connections.
 
Search on Pyatigorsk, Kislovodsk, Nalchik, Stavropol Region (Krai) or City.

[Voyageur]

55 North -

My wife is from Stavropol. There as a poster on the board before - whose wife was also from Stavropol - named CaptnB.   I have been there a few times and I agree with you that this is a nice and relatively out-of-the-way area. You can get to Stavropol directly via two-hour - often-white knuckle - airplane ride to the local airport from Vuknovo.  I have always participated in the spontaneous applause at the end of that flight 

I have enjoyed the spa at Pyatigorsk and Krasnodar, but have never been to the Caucasus mountains. I would love to go up the Elbus.  The city is well-appointed and has Universities.  It is closer than you would like to be to troubled areas like Beslan. 

[Ronnie]

How about places to avoid?  I've never been there but I understand Lugansk is like the scammer capital of the FSU.  Yoskar-Ola also has a checkered history but I've met two nice RWs from there so I hate to tar anyone with a wide brush.

How about a place were crime is exceptionally high..expecially against foreigners? 

My wife has a cousin in Togliatti, her son became a drug addict a sold his half of the flat to the mob to pay for his drugs.  They now want to be able to rent out his half of her one-room flat.  I remember there being murders of journalists there too.

[55North]

The murdering of journalists is a national passtime