Igor in Odessa

[Shadow]

One of the best sales tricks was setting a hig advisory price and give clients of a special target group instantly 25% discount.
Not only does it wonders for the target group, but the moment someone outside decides to buy anyway you get reward for the extra effort. 

[Stirlitz]

That is basically what I do. The special target group is those who need help for more than one or two days.

[AugustD]

I think Igor understands plenty about Capitalism if he skyrocketed his prices and still gets good referrals (which is why this thread was started).  I am with KenC in that you do not need to justify your prices by explaining how much you pay for your cheese (which by the way pisses me off right now!).  Simply your price is what it is.  If you guiltily justify it then maybe you think it is too high.

Also KenC did not attack, in my opinion, being friends with business associates.  I think he wisely forewarned people that are going to Odessa to simply understand that Igor is not your friend but a "hired gun".  Am I correct?  If so, a fair warning for anyone.

I can be as altruistic as the best of them(I should have fired my brother 6 months earlier but I am soft!) but I took the "real professional consultants are buddies with everyone" not too well either.  Sounds like Igor does a fine job.  Is the argument about friendly relationships with him or is he is "macking" on your dates?

[Simoni]

Get over yourself, Simoni.  I don't care who's butt you been kissing, if it was for money, it is tainted.  If I gotta pay you for your company, you aint no friend of mine.
KenC

Hold your horses, Ken...Look what I posted upstream...

... there are different views on this.  I won't say your perspecitve is wrong, but I will say that it differenent from my view and the way I conduct my professional business.  And hence, I do think you should treat me with the same respect that I treat you when I simply say you have a different perspective.

I'm saying both ways of thinking are ok.

[Stirlitz]

you do not need to justify your prices

I do not justify them. I just corrected Shadow who believed that I had found an opportunity to increase prices when in fact I simply raised them because I had to, and that’s it.

Igor is not your friend but a "hired gun"

I am not anyone’s friend just because they hire me. I can be friendly. But even a dog can be friendly and being friendly is not being a friend. It is a very multifaceted issue and the idea of a friend can be very different despite one and the same word used for that. For example, a friend can be someone who is simply on your side like in a war.

I would say that only a few of people I helped became my friends later. Not all of them. Yet I had a client who directly offered me friendship along with business from the beginning and I never needed to be extra friendly to increase the cash flow. Just for the record.

Again, I was responding to Shadow’s objections of me being friends with some of my [former] customers, like the ones who posted earlier in this thread, unless he meant being friendly by saying about me becoming a friend to clients.

Edit:
Let’s see what Webster ‘thinks’ about it:
friend
1 a person whom one knows well and is fond of; intimate associate; close acquaintance
2 a person on the same side in a struggle; one who is not an enemy or foe; ally
3 a supporter or sympathizer (a friend of labor)

Choose what you like

[Simoni]

My point is, and has been, that it is "ok" to have a friendly, personal relationship with clients.  No, more than ok. It's desirable.

And as a client, I desire the same viewpoint with whom I have hired to work for me.

In terms of this discussion, no, I don't demand that everyone think like me.  But I do think it's healthy to respect varied viewpoints.  That is why I chimed in.

Of course we may be talking apples and oranges hear. Literally.  As in orange trees...

In my business, ideas are the tender.  Therefore, you have to think along with your client to ensure that comprehension and schema are shared and understood. The better I know my clients, the better the work will be.  Now in contrast, if we are talking about physical labor, like one  of JBs oilfield workers, or someone planting orange trees, the case might be different.

[KenC]

My point is, and has been, that it is "ok" to have a friendly, personal relationship with clients.  No, more than ok. It's desirable.

And as a client, I desire the same viewpoint with whom I have hired to work for me.

In terms of this discussion, no, I don't demand that everyone think like me.  But I do think it's healthy to respect varied viewpoints.  That is why I chimed in.

Of course we may be talking apples and oranges hear. Literally.  As in orange trees...

In my business, ideas are the tender.  Therefore, you have to think along with your client to ensure that comprehension and schema are shared and understood. The better I know my clients, the better the work will be.  Now in contrast, if we are talking about physical labor, like one  of JBs oilfield workers, or someone planting orange trees, the case might be different.

Simoni,
Not everyone thinks like you.  For example: me.  I detest bootlicking consultants.  Don't give me lip service, give me results!  I have had partners like you in the past and they ultimately allowed all the friendly BS to cloud their judgement with regard to overall performance.  BTW wheather the work is mental or physical has absolutely nothing to do with it either.
KenC

[Simoni]

Simoni,
Not everyone thinks like you. 

Exactly!  That happens to be my point.  Notice my first post in this thread...

...you'll just have to accept that there are different views on this.  I won't say your perspecitve is wrong, but I will say that it different from my view and the way I conduct my professional business. 

People think differently.   Or, as Dan wrote, "different strokes for different folks."   My point is that people have different styles.  I want professional and interactive.   Perhaps you want "just shut up and get the job done?"  In my line of work, interaction is crucial, so shutting up would result in poor service.

I'll ignore your personal insults.  Maybe it's that old Detroit culture shining through...

[I/O]

Sometimes, (often IMO) people underprice themselves, work harder than necessary for the same amount of money as could be made with higher prices and a slightly smaller number of sales. KenC

This leans on the question of where you choose to position yourself. Either with a quantum profit margin. (Low volume, high profit) Or with a "Volume sales/cash flow" strategy. (High volume, lower margin)

I've owned two business which fall each into one category. The lower volume, higher profit (percentage per item/service) is fine when the capital resources are available to carry it. If an owner has limited capital, the high cash flow, lower margin thing can work OK. Basically using OPM. (Other peoples money) The two units I speak of, ultimately ended up showing much the same net profit. Hassles? Much of a muchness and it depends entirely on your individual style as to which you will prefer.

IMO, neither offers a real conduit for immediate friendship with a client. Yes, it can come later under some circumstances, but that is after the transaction is complete. Those trying to use the "Friendship" flag to enhance or develop a business relationship, IMO are saying the product or service, in and of itself, is not worth the price, but I'll value add it with my friendship.

As applied to guides etc, I think it is simply a marketing tool and it stinks. I've never used a guide as such and never intend to as I have seen this type of line coming from far too many. The nature of this beast is that it is a very "personal" persuit and as such lends itself to the "Warm and Fuzzy" thing. Any freshman should never buy into that under any circumstances. "Oh but because I am your friend, I will do this or that". What a crock..!! If I want extra, I can afford to pay you for that, what I want is for you to do your job and provide the COMPLETE product or service you agreed to provide. NOT more and NOT less.

None of that prevents a courteous business relationship. What else do you need? Courtesy and friendship are not automatically mutually inclusive.

I/O

[Simoni]

IMO, neither offers a real conduit for immediate friendship with a client. Yes, it can come later under some circumstances, but that is after the transaction is complete. Those trying to use the "Friendship" flag to enhance or develop a business relationship, IMO are saying the product or service, in and of itself, is not worth the price, but I'll value add it with my friendship.

None of that prevents a courteous business relationship. What else do you need? Courtesy and friendship are not automatically mutually inclusive.

The end of the quote is what I have been trying to say.   Courtesy and friendship and professionalism can be inclusive.

I have used a guide, and and yes...

Yes, it (friendship) can come later under some circumstances, but that is after the transaction is complete.

We developed a close friendship after the guide service was no longer needed, and remain friends years later.  To say that people cannot be friends because they were once clients is simply wrong, in my experience.

One more point-- for those businessmen in the US who espouse the no-nonsense no friendship philosophy, you are losing clients.  Because you see, some clients need and want to work with someone they can identify with on a personal basis.

[I/O]

One more point-- for those businessmen in the US who espouse the no-nonsense no friendship philosophy, you are losing clients.  Because you see, some clients need and want to work with someone they can identify with on a personal basis.

Simoni: You have not a clue whether this is correct or not as applied to the wider business community. It may be applicable to your/some fields but it is not applicable to all. Such statements are silly.

I/O

[Simoni]

Actually, your statement is silly.

I did not say it applies to everyone, or all clients.    I wrote...
"for those businessmen in the US who espouse the no-nonsense no friendship philosophy, you are losing clients."

If you don't believe that to be a true statement, then you are being "silly."   If you lost two clients because rude and unfriendly service, then you indeed are "losing clients."

But the numbers are much greater, in reality, than two clients.

[docetae]

I am myself consultant and draw a line between friendship and professional acquaintances during the time we do business together. And I will always refer them to other if they become friends after. Why ? The line between a service given to a friend and a paid service is very tiny... and many people use this to get more done for less. And if you ask them to pay for your time, they will look surprised..If you start to be in conflict with these people, they will always try to make you look bad. And for a consultant, reputation is selling point number one.

I can have a friendly business relationship, but will never do business with friends.

[Lit_1nce]

If you lost two clients because rude and unfriendly service, then you indeed are "losing clients."

I think that's a bit different than "friendship"

and docetae's post is "spot on" !

[I/O]

Actually, your statement is silly.

I did not say it applies to everyone, or all clients.    I wrote...
"for those businessmen in the US who espouse the no-nonsense no friendship philosophy, you are losing clients."

Evidence please? You don't know, you think. Big difference.

If you don't believe that to be a true statement, then you are being "silly."   If you lost two clients because rude and unfriendly service, then you indeed are "losing clients."

But the numbers are much greater, in reality, than two clients.

If's maybe's, opinion. Evidence?

I/O

[KenC]

Actually, your statement is silly.

I did not say it applies to everyone, or all clients.    I wrote...
"for those businessmen in the US who espouse the no-nonsense no friendship philosophy, you are losing clients."

If you don't believe that to be a true statement, then you are being "silly."   If you lost two clients because rude and unfriendly service, then you indeed are "losing clients."

But the numbers are much greater, in reality, than two clients.

So one cannot be professional without the bootlicking, therefore they must be rude and unfriendly?  What is wrong with you?  Anyone can be friendly and courteous without trying to become a friend.  Or in most cases pretending to be a friend to further his business interests.  There is no way you can make a valid blanket statement that people that do not try to make their clients their friends, lose business.  Personally, I see the tactics you reccomend here as transparent and insincere attempts to cover up for shortcomings of service or product quality.

Please tell me where I insulted you in my posts.

BTW, I don't know if I would use Bush as a good example of any type of professional management skills if I were you.
KenC

[2tallbill]

The reason Igor can charge the prices he does is because of the value of his services.

It's true that you can get someone to do direct translation for a lower price. A young college
girl studying English will do it for less, with more mistakes, with less reliability. Igor also is certified
to do very technical translations for engineering, gas and oil and other businesses.

Lets talk about what I do for a moment.
I sell windows and doors, so does Home Desperate (Home Depot). We don't really sell the same thing. If you want a 40 foot long wall of mahogany copper clad doors to open electrically and disappear into a pocket into a wall, then I am your guy. Very few people would attempt to get some inexperienced 20 something year old
with 4 months experience to do this. They would be spending maybe $70K to $100K for this. If they ordered
the windows from this inexperienced kid and they would be required to sign their lives away taking complete
responsibility for them before home depot (if they even sell such things) would order them.

Did the young kid know that some kinds of thresholds will keep out 60 mph wind driven rains but stick up an inch and a half? or did he order the flat threshold that will be effective only up to 20 mph wind driven rains
but it looks nice. There are ways to set the higher threshold so it doesn't stick up so high above the finished floors, but likely he doesn't know this.

Can the young kid draw construction details so that your architect or builder can frame the opening correctly or set the threshold properly. Or more likely will he not understand it at all? Will the muntins, finishes, astragals, match the rest of your windows and doors? Does he know the difference between African mahogany and South American? which will he order you? the right one or the cheaper one?

If you are looking for an inexpensive vinyl window to put into your rental home then the guy at home depot can most likely help you out. I could too. I do this maybe three times a year where the home depot guy does this every day (for 4 months). Most people after talking to me for about 5 minutes would lose the home depot guys business card as soon as they realize what I know about construction, architecture, windows, etc.

Let's get back to what Igor does vs what a college student could do for you. The college student will likely not have any idea the mistakes you might make since she has never or rarely been around people from the West. Igor has experience, certifications, knowledge that the college girl wont have. He can readily give you advice that simply the young girl wont think to give you. Does the girl give you an exact translation of what the lady you are seeing is saying?

Igor has more experience and provides a better service. He can get you a local cell phone, an internet connection, he owns a car and can drive you places. He will tell you when a lady is trying to pull something
over on you. How much is this worth? One time my bank card didn't work and Igor pulled out the money and paid for something until I was able to get it straightened out. He told me about various things I was doing the wrong way.   

Yes, it's a fact that you can get cheaper translation services from a college girl and you can get cheaper windows from Home Depot. Can you afford the cheaper service?

Just my two kopecks,

Bill

PS. I know the names of the kids of many of my customers and their ages. I have been camping, fishing, to sporting events, golfing, skiing, snow mobiling, dirt bike riding, white water rafting, barbeque's, dinner, drinking, trips to the factory, (even a trip to Italy) and etc with many of my customers. None of my customers would call me unprofessional.

[Simoni]

I can have a friendly business relationship,
but will never do business with friends.

Docetae, you are totally correct on the first part.  You can indeed have a friendly business relationship, and that is important to some clients.

Now, on the second part, my experience is different.  I hired a very competent man to re-create and manage some of my websites.   Our families later became friends.  I still do business with him. He is excellent and does excellent work. So no, I will not fire him because he became a friend. 

[Simoni]

So one cannot be professional without the bootlicking, therefore they must be rude and unfriendly?  What is wrong with you?  Anyone can be friendly and courteous without trying to become a friend.  Or in most cases pretending to be a friend to further his business interests.  There is no way you can make a valid blanket statement that people that do not try to make their clients their friends, lose business.  Personally, I see the tactics you reccomend here as transparent and insincere attempts to cover up for shortcomings of service or product quality.

Please tell me where I insulted you in my posts.

BTW, I don't know if I would use Bush as a good example of any type of professional management skills if I were you.
KenC

Ken, I don't know where you come up with your interpretations of the English language.  You seem to jump to non-standard assumptions.

So let's go back to ground zero and see if we are even talking about the same issues...

You wrote:
 

So, those of us that seek to keep "professional" relationships "professional" without all the BS trappings of fake friendships are not successful or sincere? 

Why do you assume friendly service is "fake?"  Have you bought into the RW idea that people who smile have "fake" smiles?

Now, on your point above, "one cannot be professional without the bootlicking"  ~ why do you call being professionally friendly bootlicking?  That comment leads me to believe that we have a different definition of what friendly service is.   

Now, where did this straw man come from?:  "There is no way you can make a valid blanket statement that people that do not try to make their clients their friends, lose business."  ???

I did not make that statement.  What I did say was that ""for those businessmen in the US who espouse the no-nonsense no friendship philosophy, you are losing clients."   You and I/O may see that as "blanket."  But the reality is if two clients are lost, then business has been lost.  That was my point, and it was made to demonstrate that some clients want friendly service.

Our main disagreement seems to be on the topic of friendly, or warm service.   That does not mean being a "friend."  It might lead to that, but it might not. But if it does, as in the webmaster example I gave above, it's fine.

Next you wrote "Personally, I see the tactics you reccomend here as transparent and insincere attempts to cover up for shortcomings of service or product quality."   NOPE.   Read again what I wrote earlier:

In my business, ideas are the tender.  Therefore, you have to think along with your client to ensure that comprehension and schema are shared and understood. The better I know my clients, the better the work will be. 

I don't know how I can more clearly state why a good relationship is needed with clients.  Call it transparent if and insincere if you wish, but if you think about it, I can't see how you can disagree with the statement above.

Next you wrote:  "Please tell me where I insulted you in my posts."  Uh, ok--how about this one?

Get over yourself, Simoni.  I don't care who's butt you been kissing, if it was for money, it is tainted. 
KenC

And finally, your Bush comment:  "BTW, I don't know if I would use Bush as a good example of any type of professional management skills if I were you."

Ken--that was tongue in cheek.  Perhaps you remember that I was the one attacking Bush for entering the war years ago, before it became popular to do so.  And attacking his "No Child Left Behind," before it became a failure.  And Brownie?  That was the ultimate joke as Katrina unfolded, as Bush said "Brownie, you are doing a hell of a job."  He said this as the masses huddled at the Superdome, waiting for Brownie to come to the rescue.

[I/O]

Why do you assume friendly service is "fake?" 

Simoni: Friendly Service and Friendship are two entirely different things. From your posts here, you don't seem to be able to distinguish between the two. Then you go on to assure others they will be losing clients based on YOUR opinion of how business should be conducted. You simply don't know what the situation is in other businesses.

BTW, NOBODY is disputing the value of friendly service.

I/O

[KenC]

Ken, I don't know where you come up with your interpretations of the English language.  You seem to jump to non-standard assumptions.

So let's go back to ground zero and see if we are even talking about the same issues...

You wrote:
 Why do you assume friendly service is "fake?"  Have you bought into the RW idea that people who smile have "fake" smiles?

When becoming a friend is part of your business plan, how sincere can it be?  As when you posted:

My point is, and has been, that it is "ok" to have a friendly, personal relationship with clients.  No, more than ok. It's desirable.

Now, on your point above, "one cannot be professional without the bootlicking"  ~ why do you call being professionally friendly bootlicking?  That comment leads me to believe that we have a different definition of what friendly service is.

   You have repeatidly put forth the idea that you strive to make your business relationships personal not friendly professional.

Now, where did this straw man come from?:  "There is no way you can make a valid blanket statement that people that do not try to make their clients their friends, lose business."  ???

I did not make that statement.  What I did say was that ""for those businessmen in the US who espouse the no-nonsense no friendship philosophy, you are losing clients."   You and I/O may see that as "blanket."  But the reality is if two clients are lost, then business has been lost.  That was my point, and it was made to demonstrate that some clients want friendly service.

  Splitting hairs here as I see it.  You cannot make a valid statement that "no nonsense no friendship philosophy" businesses lose clients.  I for one, like to keep all business relationships strictly business and appreciate other that do so too.

Our main disagreement seems to be on the topic of friendly, or warm service.   That does not mean being a "friend."  It might lead to that, but it might not. But if it does, as in the webmaster example I gave above, it's fine.

The whole basis for this on going discussion relates to the concept of mixing personal friendships with business relationships.  You not only promote the idea of building friendships to enhance your business relationships but openly criticize those who do not.  As when you posted (in response to Shadow's post calling for the separation of personal and business relationships)

Not my style.

Nor in other sincere, successful consultants

This quote suggests that others that d not follow your line of thinking are less sincere and less successful.

Next you wrote "Personally, I see the tactics you reccomend here as transparent and insincere attempts to cover up for shortcomings of service or product quality."   NOPE.   Read again what I wrote earlier:
I don't know how I can more clearly state why a good relationship is needed with clients.  Call it transparent if and insincere if you wish, but if you think about it, I can't see how you can disagree with the statement above.

I have read it and this statement falls way short of your earlier statements regarding mixing personal & business relationships.  Again, being friendly & courteous does not necessarily mean seeking friendships as you advocate.  As well as not seeking friendship in business circumstances, does not preclude one being friendly and courteous.

Next you wrote:  "Please tell me where I insulted you in my posts."  Uh, ok--how about this one?

And finally, your Bush comment:  "BTW, I don't know if I would use Bush as a good example of any type of professional management skills if I were you."

How is that a personal insult to you? 

You have made many false assumptions through out this thread:
If one does not seek to make personal friends of their clients they lose clients.
If one does not seek to make personal friends of their clients they must be rude and unfriendly
If one does not seek to make personal friends of their clients they are insincere and less successful than those who do.
If one does not agree with your style of doing business, he must be personally insulting you

Hogwash!
KenC

[Simoni]

Simoni: Friendly Service and Friendship are two entirely different things. From your posts here, you don't seem to be able to distinguish between the two. Then you go on to assure others they will be losing clients based on YOUR opinion of how business should be conducted. You simply don't know what the situation is in other businesses.

BTW, NOBODY is disputing the value of friendly service.

I/O

I agree.  Friendly service and friendship are different things.  But the two can mix.

Friendly service is a requirement for some consumers.  Friendship is not.  But friendship is ok, even desired, in many consulting situations.

Now, for the third time, I stated that a business without friendly service will lose clients.  My statement is true because if a business loses one customer, they have lost a client.  Two and they have lost clients.  I stated this to provide balance to those who believe that friendly service is not important.

[Simoni]

Splitting hairs here as I see it. 
***  I see the same throughout most of this.

You have made many false assumptions through out this thread:
If one does not seek to make personal friends of their clients they lose clients.
Not necessarily true.  But I do believe that friendship between my clients and myself is ok, and even desirable. 
If one does not seek to make personal friends of their clients they must be rude and unfriendlyNot true.  Untrue, in fact. See my note below.
If one does not seek to make personal friends of their clients they are insincere and less successful than those who do.Not true.  You are the one who keeps using the word insincere.

If one does not agree with your style of doing business, he must be personally insulting youNot true

Hogwash!Hogwash to you, since you insist on mis-representing what I say.

Here is what I do say:

It's ok, and desirable, to be friendly to clients and to allow friendship to develop.

A business that is unfriendly will lose some clients to competitors who provide friendly service.  But not providing friendly service does not make a business unfriendly.  This seems to be one conclusion you are leaping to that is not true.

[Simoni]

The main area where I see where we disagree, Ken, is in your statement:

"I for one, like to keep all business relationships strictly business and appreciate other that do so too."

That is your way.  And it's fine.  I have a different outlook, and that is fine too. Customers will be drawn to both of these views.

I suspect the main difference is in the type of business services we offer, but that is a different story.  Perhaps you have a client a day, where my work with a client may go on for months or years.

[KenC]

The main area where I see where we disagree, Ken, is in your statement:

"I for one, like to keep all business relationships strictly business and appreciate other that do so too."

That is your way.  And it's fine.  I have a different outlook, and that is fine too. Customers will be drawn to both of these views.

I suspect the main difference is in the type of business services we offer, but that is a different story.  Perhaps you have a client a day, where my work with a client may go on for months or years.

Nah, the biggest difference is that I mean what I say and say what I mean and you change your point of view when cornered on it.
KenC