Black guy heading to Ukraine

[TW1970]

Well, here I am ready to embark on a new chapter of my life. I’m 37 years old, mixed race (my father is Black/mum is White), no kids never married. The last 10 years or so, I’ve been working for the USA government in various capacities. I met a Ukrainian lady a year ago and we became good friends. She was working here in DC as translator in my office and we still keep in contact even though she returned to Kiev.

I guess I’m getting to that point in my life where I’d like to settle down, so I’ve taken a more active approach to meeting women now. The only problem is that I don’t feel compatible with most American women I’ve met: (I’ve lived overseas a bit, and I feel more of a connection/attraction with European women). I told this Ukrainian lady I worked with that I would visit her and her country in the summer and she’s extremely excited to see me but I never been to Ukraine before and I do not know the local population’s attitudes towards Mixed race/Black people. So any insight/advice folks can provide here would be greatly appreciated! I’m not really looking to do the tour thing and I’ve been corresponding/talking with a few women from smaller cities in Ukraine too.

[Fashionista]

I don't want to sound like a party-pooper or something, but my guess all these Ukranian ladies will be saying: "I am not a racist, I just prefer white men for <i>aesthetical</i> reasons."  Me, being a cute <i>hapa</i>, growing up in central Russia, surrounded with predominantly white population, was a little bit tough. Me didn't likey being called names. And you do know that the N-word doesn't consider bad in FSU? Well, now you know. Good luck to you, I really hope you'll enjoy your jorney.

[Admin]

Welcome to RWD.

You will probably find many opinions here that are generally discouraging - but not mine.

I *do* think you will encounter some amount - maybe a LOT - of ignorance and bigotry. You will almost certainly hear people use the Russian word for "black person" which sounds shockingly like the pejorative English term "nigger" (please recognize it is NOT an insult as it is in English - it is merely the Russian term to describe a person of black skin color). I also think you will encounter most people who will be simply curious - and unless you are remarkably unlucky, you should NOT encounter any outright dangers owing to color. It is also possible you will get some increased attention from the local 'militsia' who will ask for your papers more often than a white person might - but it should be nothing more than a simply hassle to produce the papers and be on your way.

BTW - on the subject of terminology - note that to describe someone as 'Caucasian' might be interpreted in Russian and Ukraine as indicating a person who's origin is in the Caucasus, which is often the base for terrorists and anti-Russian sentiment - as another example of the differences in terminology application and meaning.

Now - race issues aside, I like the approach you have described. You should go to visit an interesting place with a rich history and enjoy it as you would an excursion to any foreign destination. You have the added advantage of knowing someone there, and you should take the opportunity to get to know her better - and others if you are so inclined.

Generally-speaking, you should find Ukraine to be an exciting and exotic travel destination. It is a country which has a VERY low population of black people, so it will have a few eccentricities, and challenges, you would not find in western European countries - but none that should dissuade you (IMO) from visiting.

As you have specific questions - please post away.

- Dan

[catzenmouse]

Well I was going to say something like what Dan just posted (not as eloquently though) so instead I'll just say Welcome To RWD!

Keep an open mind (which it sounds like you do already), enjoy the time in Ukraine, and tell us all about your thoughts and experiences when you get back.

Ken

P. S. Sorry to hear about your disability... working for the government that is...  (former Federal Reserve employee here)

[BillyB]

Welcome TW,

  I have seen some Blacks with a RW girlfriends and some black members on these forums have even married RW.

But for most men of different ethnic backgrounds and skin color, they will have an uphill battle. Prepare yourself for much more rejection than success. You mentioned you're "talking" to some women in Ukraine. Keep talking and judge by their tone of voice if they're "into" you.

You have to look harder than most guys but there are some RW that will be attracted to you. Just make sure they are after you and not your wallet or a ticket over here.

[TwoBitBandit]

I agree with Dan entirely on the usage of the n-word.  You'll hear it all the time in the FSU, but it doesn't have the pejorative meaning that it has here in the states.  It's simply a term to describe a person with dark skin color.

Aside from this particular word, though, people in the FSU are arguably the most racist people in the world.  The stuff I've heard FSU citizens say about people from other countries (China, Vietnam, Brazil, whatever) has genuinely shocked and offended me.

Just be prepared to hear some really odd and derogatory comments.

There's plenty of good things to say about the FSU, I certainly don't discourage you from going.

[groovlstk]

I met a Ukrainian lady a year ago and we became good friends. She was working here in DC as translator in my office and we still keep in contact even though she returned to Kiev.

TW, I can't see in your post if this woman is a romantic attachment for you, or simply a friend?

If she's a friend and she's willing to be honest with you, you have a diamond in the rough. Having a friend on the ground who can help set you up at an apartment, show you the transportation systems, and even act as a translator when you're meeting women is great. Having that same friend keep you grounded by telling you less than pleasant truths (the kind that marriage agencies and such like to keep hidden) about your endeavor and life in her homeland is even more valuable.

Good luck and persevere if you want to be successful.

[TW1970]

P. S. Sorry to hear about your disability... working for the government that is...  (former Federal Reserve employee here)

Thanks for the support! So you were another cog in the wheel, brick in the wall too huh? Lol! But you can't beat the benefits...

[I/O]

TW: Frankly I think it rather poor form on the part of some to gloss this thing as they have. Let me put it how my Russian wife does FYI, "I find black people interesting, I would (And she has) happily sit and have dinner with a black man, I could talk with him all day, but there is NO WAY I would ever consider marrying one".

That my friend is what you will find among the very vast majority of Easterners. Yeah, you'll get the sugercoaters who will talk about the exceptions and I am very well aware of a few Black American/White Russian marriages, but they are just that, a few.

I also warn you, and here I disagree with Dan strongly, there is a number of people/groups, albeit small number who seem to want to see with their own eyes if a black man bleeds blood or ink. I don't think you need to be obsessed, but I do think you should keep your eyes peeled.

Whilst not unprecedented, I frankly think your chances of finding a quality marriage partner in the FSU are slim. Would love to see you prove me wrong and sincerely wish you all the best, but I suggest you should go expecting little.

I/O

[TW1970]

TW, I can't see in your post if this woman is a romantic attachment for you, or simply a friend?

If she's a friend and she's willing to be honest with you, you have a diamond in the rough. Having a friend on the ground who can help set you up at an apartment, show you the transportation systems, and even act as a translator when you're meeting women is great. Having that same friend keep you grounded by telling you less than pleasant truths (the kind that marriage agencies and such like to keep hidden) about your endeavor and life in her homeland is even more valuable.

Good luck and persevere if you want to be successful.

Good question. When she was here in the USA she was definitely a friend since we worked together. She was curious about me as I was to her so we hung out a few times but I did not think she was “romantically” interested in me. However, since she returned to Ukraine, she has expressed more of an interest in me. How does that saying go, “absence makes the heart grow fonder”?

It’s may be possible and although I was born in the evening, it wasn’t last night so I have proceeded cautiously for right now. I told her we could hang out in Kiev but I was going to spend time by myself just as she did while she was here in the USA. No mention of us being boyfriend or girlfriend. She seems ok with that now but once I step on Ukrainian soil who knows..

Honestly, I think she is a good woman, attractive, although quite young (young being 21 y/o), and possible very impressionable so I’m hesitant to start something.

[TW1970]

I *do* think you will encounter some amount - maybe a LOT - of ignorance and bigotry. You will almost certainly hear people use the Russian word for "black person" which sounds shockingly like the pejorative English term "nigger" (please recognize it is NOT an insult as it is in English - it is merely the Russian term to describe a person of black skin color). I also think you will encounter most people who will be simply curious - and unless you are remarkably unlucky, you should NOT encounter any outright dangers owing to color. It is also possible you will get some increased attention from the local 'militsia' who will ask for your papers more often than a white person might - but it should be nothing more than a simply hassle to produce the papers and be on your way.

Thanks for the encouragement and observations Dan!  I suppose, I would be foolhardy to not at least anticipate a little bit of bigotry. I have traveled to and lived in a several countries and understand some ignorance is to be expected. The Czech Rep, Slovakia, and Poland were fine and I felt totally safe when I was there. But then again, I was on govt business and went about things discretely and kept a low profile.

As far as the terminology, folks have different ways of expressing themselves so that is fine by me. I’m just trying to get a sense from folks how minorities are perceived and some of the challenges they face in Ukraine. 

[BC]

TW,

I am quite curious as to how you like Ukraine and vice versa.  We watch a lot of RU TV here and there are a couple of quite popular black/maybe mixed race fellows getting along quite well with a lot of air time (and bet with the ladies too).  Now if you could speak RU fluently I'd probably give you better chances than most, especially with the younger crowd.

Generally mixed race couples in Europe are viewed as different but no big deal.  UA folks seem to orient themselves more towards Europe so that might be a little hidden plus.

I'll go against the grain and tell ya don't even look for a wife.  Just have fun and let life do for you what it does best (worked for quite a few married guys here).

[TW1970]

TW: Frankly I think it rather poor form on the part of some to gloss this thing as they have. Let me put it how my Russian wife does FYI, "I find black people interesting, I would (And she has) happily sit and have dinner with a black man, I could talk with him all day, but there is NO WAY I would ever consider marrying one".

No worries and I appreciate the input. I am curious though, does your wife make a distinction between Africans, African Americans or folks of mixed race? I am also not visiting/considering Russia at this time so I am wondering if ladies in Ukraine will have similar beliefs as your wife? By the way, I noticed the Oz flag in your avatar. Ever been to Adelaide? I spent some time there.

[AnastassiaAsh]

TW: Frankly I think it rather poor form on the part of some to gloss this thing as they have. Let me put it how my Russian wife does FYI, "I find black people interesting, I would (And she has) happily sit and have dinner with a black man, I could talk with him all day, but there is NO WAY I would ever consider marrying one".

Sorry about that but the same here. It may seem strange but it is more about 'curiosity' than anything.
Why don't you want to marry a black woman? To add race differences to the cultural is a doom, I think. Her being 21 is toooooo young, for anybody.

[docetae]

Well, here I am ready to embark on a new chapter of my life. I’m 37 years old, mixed race (my father is Black/mum is White), no kids never married. The last 10 years or so, I’ve been working for the USA government in various capacities. I met a Ukrainian lady a year ago and we became good friends. She was working here in DC as translator in my office and we still keep in contact even though she returned to Kiev.

I guess I’m getting to that point in my life where I’d like to settle down, so I’ve taken a more active approach to meeting women now. The only problem is that I don’t feel compatible with most American women I’ve met: (I’ve lived overseas a bit, and I feel more of a connection/attraction with European women). I told this Ukrainian lady I worked with that I would visit her and her country in the summer and she’s extremely excited to see me but I never been to Ukraine before and I do not know the local population’s attitudes towards Mixed race/Black people. So any insight/advice folks can provide here would be greatly appreciated! I’m not really looking to do the tour thing and I’ve been corresponding/talking with a few women from smaller cities in Ukraine too.

Hello, first thing you will discover is that the politically correct does not exist in Ukraine... I remember one discussion with one woman and everything which is not white and catholic was for her different (including Jews, Black, Asiatic..). Mixing ethnicity is definitely not in Ukrainian culture.
They are most used to see Turkish men, black people are mainly only there for studying. You will meet mainly ignorance and stereotype...

The good thing is that you will find no hypocrisy... people are very straight and will tell you what they think. But it can hurting sometime...

[I/O]

No worries and I appreciate the input. I am curious though, does your wife make a distinction between Africans, African Americans or folks of mixed race?

TW: LOL, this is a discussion we have almost every day at the moment because she is in the thick of an Advanced Adult Migrant English Program and that naturally exposes her to far more non white people than it does white people. She is basically what I would call soft racist. When it comes to marriage, Whites for Whites, Blacks for Blacks and Yellows for Yellows is how she seems to see it. She is well aware that in a modern world this is not staying that way, but that is her ideal if she was completely honest with herself. She also has good friends back home married to Vietnamese men. Nevertheless, she sees some cultural differences and they simply don't fit with her preferences.

I would observe in her attitude, for the sake of this discussion, the better educated and more articulate the Black person is, the more accepting she is. So to link this back to your question, I suspect she would be more accepting of Black Americans generally speaking than she is for example of some Sudanise people by way of example.

I don't profess to know how all Russian or FSU women think, but I have mixed with quite a few from Vladivostok to Bucharest and many places in between. What I have found is her attitude is not untypical when you really drill down. Sure, they will date you, but it will be more from curiosity than any real serious interest. When push comes to shove, they will opt out in favour of one their own colour.

Look TW, you're a big boy who is educated and has been around a little, what I am trying to get across is that the Rah Rah mob will cheer you on to the point of your own destruction at times and you need to be aware that you will be right up against the wall if you get serious about this. A 21 y/o hottie from the east who is interested in a Black American man is a rare beast indeed and the whole things screams to me of Good Time Girl/Pro Dater/Green Card Girl or sheer desperation. I may be wrong, hope I am, but if I was in your boots, yes I would go, but I would have one hand planted firmly on the auto ejector seat button because me thinks you'll need to press it pretty hard somewhere along the line.

How Ukrainians think compared to Russians. :noidea: :noidea: Frankly I haven't noticed much difference on these types of subjects.

By the way, I noticed the Oz flag in your avatar. Ever been to Adelaide? I spent some time there.

Family originated from that area, I don't spend much time there these days, although I visit relatives every few years. I chose to live in paradise a few years back which is quite a distance North East from Adelaide. (yeah we have the Southerner/Northerner thing here also)

I/O
 

[turniptruck]

White women not marrying black men is the same in the US.  planet-love posted this article:

http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-female-seeking-same-race-male/

[Makkin]

  Best of luck and please keep the board informed on your progress. Hope you find everything you seek.

Makkin

[TW1970]

Sorry about that but the same here. It may seem strange but it is more about 'curiosity' than anything.
Why don't you want to marry a black woman? To add race differences to the cultural is a doom, I think. Her being 21 is toooooo young, for anybody.

It seems there is a common theme from several folks here that there will be alot of curious looks from women. That's ok by me and if I meet someone who is more than just curious great.  As far a marrying a Black woman, I have never really been physically attracted to them. Plus, I always seemed to have more in common with other races especially women from overseas, be it traveling experiences, hobbies, etc.

Yeah my friend in Kiev who is 21 is quite young despite how mature she seems. So I'm not really exploring that as a potential relationship.

[TW1970]

TW, I am quite curious as to how you like Ukraine and vice versa.  

Well, I worked with a lady who is from Ukraine and I am curious to know more about the culture since she offered to show me around Kiev. I think she might be interested in something more than friendship but I can keep things platonic since she's quite young and we were also not a couple when she was here in the USA.

As you mentioned too, I'm going to just try to enjoy the trip and if I meet someone (possibly one of the ladies I am corresponding with right now) and we hit it off great.


 

[docetae]

Well, I worked with a lady who is from Ukraine and I am curious to know more about the culture since she offered to show me around Kiev. I think she might be interested in something more than friendship but I can keep things platonic since she's quite young and we were also not a couple when she was here in the USA.

As you mentioned too, I'm going to just try to enjoy the trip and if I meet someone (possibly one of the ladies I am corresponding with right now) and we hit it off great.
 

quick note about mentality... she can wants more than platonic and not a relationship...

[BillyB]

As far a marrying a Black woman, I have never really been physically attracted to them.

Some people think it's wrong to marry outside your race.

It's definitely wrong to encourage others to marry people they're not attractive to. I don't know why everytime a black guy comes here to ask questions, others ask him to stick with or consider women of his own race as if he never thought about that? How many times have you Western men, pursuing RW, had anyone ask you if you considered dating someone at home? Gee, that never crossed my mind.

TW, some black guys have found success and that's not sugarcoating anything, that's just the facts. Also the percentage of black men engaging in a successful relationship with RW is very low. You know that already and certainly nobody here is hiding that fact from you.

TW, you have a good attitude, seem to be a good guy and not a bad looking guy. You understand you will have difficulties finding a RW that will be attracted to you and you are mentally prepared for lots of rejection until you find what you're looking for. You clearly understand the odds and accept them. Good luck, I hope you find success in the FSU and you find a woman that is happy to be with you too. Anything less than "both" of you being happy with each other will lead to disaster no matter what skin color you possess.

[Misha]

TW, some black guys have found success and that's not sugarcoating anything, that's just the facts. Also the percentage of black men engaging in a successful relationship with RW is very low. You know that already and certainly nobody here is hiding that fact from you.

TW, you have a good attitude, seem to be a good guy and not a bad looking guy. You understand you will have difficulties finding a RW that will be attracted to you and you are mentally prepared for lots of rejection until you find what you're looking for.

I would add that the odds of a white or any other guy from the west engaging with a successful relationship with RW is very low. Heck, the odds of a RM engaging in a successful relationship with a RW is very low: in 2001, Russia recorded three divorces for every four new marriages (source: http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.19951/pub_detail.asp).

Is there racism in Russia and the FSU? Will there be women who won't be interested in a man simply because of the shade of his skin? Of course. However, the goal is not to please and marry ALL women from Russia and Ukraine, the goal is to find ONE woman who will love you the way you are. I can't see why TW can't succeed in finding that ONE woman whom he will love and who will love him.

[I/O]

I don't know why everytime a black guy comes here to ask questions, others ask him to stick with or consider women of his own race as if he never thought about that?

I haven't seen to many ask Black guys "To". What have seen asked is "why they don't". Very different question IMO and it rarely gets a plausible answer.

I/O

[Son of Clyde]

Well, I live not far from DC and work for the US government too. I know of several black guys who were involved with Russian/Ukrainian women. One of them married the lady. So consider me a Rah Rah type. I think if you have the motivation and know what to expect, this could work out for you in a positive way. Send me a pm sometime, maybe we can talk.