A child from Russia is killed in the USA

[Misha]

I am not accusing Americans, I wrote nothing in my first point, but the reaction of gabaub hurt me.

I had that suspicion before and now it's proved. That's sad.

I am sorry that my reaction hurt you, but I do see a definite trend in the Russian media: the demonizing of foreigners and the blatant disregard of the suffering of ordinary Russians in their own country. In a way it is reminiscent of Soviet propaganda from the 1970s: Pravda would always cover the suffering of the proletariat of the bourgeois capitalist states as a way of reminding their citizens how fortunate they were to live in a Communist paradise.

[ScottinCrimea]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-07-19-russia-adoptions_x.htm

"Lakhova is ready to sacrifice thousands of children, many of whom will die" without proper medical care, said Boris Altshuler, director of Russia's Right of the Child group.

He said that the figure of 13 children was minuscule compared with the estimated 2,000 children killed in Russia every year.

Deputy Prosecutor General Sergei Fridinsky disputed that, telling reporters that 1,080 children have been killed in Russia in 2000-05, about 200 children per year.


Okay Serebro, explain this one:  the director of a children's rights group claims 2,000 children are killed in Russia every year and the government disputes it, saying only 200 a tear are killed, as if that is an acceptable number.  Now compare that to 14 Russian children killed in the US in 10 years and tell me where are the children safer?

Russians also responded to data showing what happens to children who are orphaned and never adopted. According to a 1997 report from the NATIONAL COUNCIL FOR ADOPTION, these are the outcomes: "1 in 3 become homeless; 1 in 5 commits a crime; 1 in 10 commits suicide; more than 2 million former orphans are unemployed

Nonetheless, there are even more orphans and abandoned children needing help. The number of orphanages has doubled since the early 1990s, with a current total of 230,000 orphans living in the facilities.

So if we plug the numbers in, of the 230,000 orphans in facilities in Russia, 77,000 will end up homeless, 46,000 will become criminals and 23,000 will commit suicide.  So tell me, given 14 out of 60,000 adoptees killed versus 23,000 not adopted who end up committing suicide, whose life is at greater risk?

I'm still waiting for you to "get off your ass" and provide some corroborating evidence to your broad and inflammatory statements.

[Serebro]

Scott,  these are problems of Russia, Russia has a lot of problems, I don't deny this, but it doesn't mean that we should ignore the problem we have with american people adopting Russian children, it's also the problem that should be solved.
Russian orphanges is a different problem.

When families adopt children in Russia they don't normally kill them, why do they do this in america, what's wrong with americans.

And stop changing the topic all the time.

[ScottinCrimea]

When families adopt children in Russia they don't normally kill them, why do they do this in america, what's wrong with americans.

When families adopt children in America they don't normally kill them either.  Still, it happens in both countries, though rarely.

So what solution are you offering?  Stop adoptions of Russian children by Americans?  If the 60,000 weren't adopted, based on the statistics cited by Russian authorities, 6,000 of these children would have committed suicide.  If we're talking about the life and welfare of these orphans, what I have cited is very relevant.

You've cited a problem, so now come up with what you think is the best solution.  Let's see if you can think beyond the emotional knee jerk.

[Serebro]

When families adopt children in America they don't normally kill them either.  Still, it happens in both countries, though rarely.

So what solution are you offering?  Stop adoptions of Russian children by Americans?  If the 60,000 weren't adopted, based on the statistics cited by Russian authorities, 6,000 of these children would have committed suicide.  If we're talking about the life and welfare of these orphans, what I have cited is very relevant.

You've cited a problem, so now come up with what you think is the best solution.  Let's see if you can think beyond the emotional knee jerk.

Scott, I am not offering a solution, cos I am not the American who adopts childen and I am not the Russian who lets her child be adopted.

The thread wasn't started as a problem solving thing, it was made for information.Besides I was curious what made "well-behaved" middle class americans kill adopted children regularly like it becomes an epidemy.

I found an answer to my question in your replies. Their lives aren't valuable, because their american parents don't consider their adopted children to be human beings, they consider them to be cheap toys from a poor country where these children "would have commited suicide or starved anyway"(your words). So they feel free to do what they want with them:no matter what they do they are sure that it's not worse that in Russia.


We can lock the thread.

[ScottinCrimea]

Serebro, absolutely nothing in my posts could have led you to that conclusion.  I see that you already had that incredibly irresponsible opinion and were grasping for anything that might support the conclusion that you had already made.

By not offering your idea of a solution or listening to differing ideas and facts, you show that your concern is not at all for the childrenn involved, only for provoking an argument.  That's a pretty pitiful use of the terrible plight of these children and can be counted as one more form of abuse.

Though 14 children in 10 years is certainly not an acceptable number, how did you determine that this number constitutes an "epidemy"?

Now I would consider 23,000 child suicides more indicative of an epidemic.  What are you doing personally for these orphans to help solve this problem?  Have you written abything about this or other dangers to these children anywhere "for information"?  Maybe because it doesn't relate to the US?

[viking]

A man I know who works in my town spent over one year to finally adopt a beautiful Ukraine boy. Almost a baby. It was almost 2 years ago.He and his wife love this child. This child will be well cared for his whole life. And I think there are many other children from around the wold who find wonderful homes here in America. And I also think Americans, for the most part, open their hearts to homeless children more than any other country. And most of these children grow up in loving homes.

Are there bad apples in the barrel? Yes. But it does not matter from which country the child is from. If the parents are not good, the child will suffer. We have very strict laws about how a child is raised. If a person suspects a child is being neglected or abused, they can call many different services who will investigate. But it is impossible to find every bad parent.

In this case does it matter the nationality of the parent, or the child? The man was an animal and deserves to be punished, and he will.  But I can understand a passion of sorts to hear about a child from ones country being abused in another. I would feel the same if a Russian family adopted an American child and abused him in Russia.

But it still comes down to a common factor. An evil man hurting/killing a child. Period.

[Misha]

When families adopt children in Russia they don't normally kill them, why do they do this in america, what's wrong with americans.

And stop changing the topic all the time.

So, Serebro, you are claiming that no Russian adoptive parents have ever killed their adopted children? Russian government sources state that 2,500 Russian children are killed by their parents every year. None of these parents have ever been adoptive parents?

When you write that "when families adopt children in Russian they don't normally kill them." This implies that American parents adopt children to kill them. Again, any child dying is a tragedy, but 6 out of 60,000 adoptions is hardly a standard occurrence.

[KenC]

Scott, I am not offering a solution, cos I am not the American who adopts childen and I am not the Russian who lets her child be adopted.

The thread wasn't started as a problem solving thing, it was made for information.Besides I was curious what made "well-behaved" middle class americans kill adopted children regularly like it becomes an epidemy.

I found an answer to my question in your replies. Their lives aren't valuable, because their american parents don't consider their adopted children to be human beings, they consider them to be cheap toys from a poor country where these children "would have commited suicide or starved anyway"(your words). So they feel free to do what they want with them:no matter what they do they are sure that it's not worse that in Russia.


We can lock the thread.

Serebro,
This is an unfounded and unsupported distortion of the truth.  One case or even a few does not support your conclusion.  And no posts here endorsed your claim either.  You are twisting words to the max in order to try and embarrass Americans.
Ken

[Blues Fairy]

I was curious what made "well-behaved" middle class americans kill adopted children regularly like it becomes an epidemy.

I found an answer to my question in your replies. Their lives aren't valuable, because their american parents don't consider their adopted children to be human beings, they consider them to be cheap toys from a poor country

The way the question was posed, the answer couldn't have been different.  And you people are earnestly trying to talk reason into this child. 

[Gator]

I was curious what made "well-behaved" middle class americans kill adopted children regularly like it becomes an epidemy.

Their lives aren't valuable, because their american parents don't consider their adopted children to be human beings, they consider them to be cheap toys from a poor country where these children "would have commited suicide or starved anyway"(your words).

Serebro,

You have lost control of your mind.  I hope for your sake that your condition is temporary; otherwise, you will become a very miserable and bitter old woman (at a young age).

[Gator]

Blues Fairy,

I think it is past her bedtime.

[Ronnie]

Serebro's resentment of America knows no bounds.  She will stoop to any level to dig up some small shred of anti-American propaganda.  She purposely ignore that the killer in this this case was Russian.  I  should have thought she'd bypass that one but since he was living in America...America is guilty. 

I think the reason it was covered in Russia is precisely for the dual propaganda effect;  First, it purports to show that those Russians who emigrate are mentally ill and,  second, that those Americans who  adopt a child from Russia are only looking for more children to abuse or maybe a third effect, Americans hate Russia so much they steal Russia's kids take their hatred out on them.  I know at least one Russian who swallows it all, hook, line and sinker.

Serebro asks why the American press doesn't report these tragedies. Odd since she provided the link to the American newspaper who first reported it and without such report, dear Serebro would never have gotten her anti-American fix for the day.

[BC]

It would be much more constructive to discuss how parents are screened on both sides of the waters.  Something fell through the crack here.

[Serebro]

Serebro,

You have lost control of your mind.  I hope for your sake that your condition is temporary; otherwise, you will become a very miserable and bitter old woman (at a young age).

Oh, Gator, I am sure my case will not be as bad as yours and I will not have to go to India or anywhere else in order to find a gf who is 40 year younger.

It's pointless.

The only miserable nation in the world in modern Americans, not because they do bad things, but because they do bad things and they are sure that they are right and they are saving the world, grow up, immature 60 yo kids, take your flags off your eyes, your image is falling down, very soon it will reach the Earth and you will have to face  reality which will not be very pleasant for you putting you in the same row with faschist Germany or Napoleon's France.and you are still sitting here discussing how bad other countries are... look at your own one.

[Serebro]

Serebro's resentment of America knows no bounds.  She will stoop to any level to dig up some small shred of anti-American propaganda.  She purposely ignore that the killer in this this case was Russian.  I  should have thought she'd bypass that one but since he was living in America...America is guilty. 

I think the reason it was covered in Russia is precisely for the dual propaganda effect;  First, it purports to show that those Russians who emigrate are mentally ill and,  second, that those Americans who  adopt a child from Russia are only looking for more children to abuse or maybe a third effect, Americans hate Russia so much they steal Russia's kids take their hatred out on them.  I know at least one Russian who swallows it all, hook, line and sinker.

Serebro asks why the American press doesn't report these tragedies. Odd since she provided the link to the American newspaper who first reported it and without such report, dear Serebro would never have gotten her anti-American fix for the day.

Ronnie, yes, I know that Americans like to express their point of view, at the same time they don't read a lot, so from your post it's obvious that you didn't read what I read in my previous posts.Go to school and ask them to teach you reading not only expressing your stupid ideas.

Blues Fairy

The way the question was posed, the answer couldn't have been different.  And you people are earnestly trying to talk reason into this child. 

what's wrong, dear, is western life too sweet that it's ok to kill Russian children and smile?!
so, who are these 900 people discussing the news on mail.ru
http://news.mail.ru/incident/1666052/comments/

they aren't as polite as me in their ideas about Americans and their democratical society, are all of them immature and stupid?!

the country that can't control its idiots killing children at school and students at universities speaks about how great, unique and superior it is...lmao

[Ronnie]

The only way to help Serebro overcome her illness is to stop feeding it.  We are her enablers, like the parent who brings home vodka for an alcoholic child.  We just need to stop.

[Serebro]

The only way to help Serebro overcome her illness is to stop feeding it.  We are her enablers, like the parent who brings home vodka for an alcoholic child.  We just need to stop.

I agree, stop saying how great America is and how bad Russia is when a russian child is killed in the USA.
Learn to accept your mistakes and faults and get rid of your  favourite habit -to raise eyes to the sky, sigh and say that the level of crimes in so high in the WORLD when something bad happens in the USA,

you post tons of articles about the "bad"government of the FSU countries, of the level of hepatitis in Ukrainian odessa, why not to learn to admit your own mistakes, that's the thing what is childish, a child can't accept his mistakes and is always trying to find circumstances/people who are at fault..

[BC]

Serebro,

Help me a little..

Lets just suppose hypothetically that these parents were unfit to care for an adoptive child.

RU authorities allowed them to adopt.
US authorities allowed the child to immigrate with these parents.

Who is at fault?  RU? US? or maybe both?

[I/O]

why not to learn to admit your own mistakes, that's the thing what is childish, a child can't accept his her mistakes and is always trying to find circumstances/people who are at fault..

Suggest you take a little of your own advice.

For Gods sakes Serebro, step back from your irrationally emotional pulpit for a minute and see what you are doing here. You are USING the death of a child to vent your opinons of another nation. That IMO is disgusting at best.

Did it occur to you that perhaps 299 odd million Americans are as horrified at this event as the rest of us are?

Think about it. Your turning this into a football to kick around is horrible. I thought even you capable of better.

And you people are earnestly trying to talk reason into this child. 

Yeah...I know, you are too right.

I/O

[Misha]

Ronnie, yes, I know that Americans like to express their point of view, at the same time they don't read a lot, so from your post it's obvious that you didn't read what I read in my previous posts.Go to school and ask them to teach you reading not only expressing your stupid ideas.

Blues Fairywhat's wrong, dear, is western life too sweet that it's ok to kill Russian children and smile?!
so, who are these 900 people discussing the news on mail.ru
http://news.mail.ru/incident/1666052/comments/

they aren't as polite as me in their ideas about Americans and their democratical society, are all of them immature and stupid?!

Well, a few are actually very critical of Russia. This is what one of the 900 commentators you cite had to say followed by my rough translation:

а в России?
А сколько в России в детских домах, в роддомах, да просто в семьях алкашей гибнет детей? никто не считал?Уроды, у себя под носом порядок навести не можем, суем нос к другим, у самих бревно в глазу. Мля, зла нехватает, зато разные олигархи меряются, у кого яхта круче. или футбольный клуб, а долю малую подкинуть приютам и детским домам жаба душит. Дождуться скоро, опять начнется заскулачиваение, сколько можно терпение людей испытывать.

And in Russia?
And how many children are killed in Russia in the orphanages, in the maternity home and simply in families of alcoholics? Nobody has counted? Ugly creatures that cannot even create order under their noses, look down their noses at others, and can't even see a log in their own eye [Note: comes from a Russian saying used to criticize someone who sees small faults in others and overlooks major faults in themselves]. Lies, no shortage of hate, while various oligarchs compete to see who has the cooler yacht or football [soccer] club, and little is thrown to the orphanages and children's homes, strangled toads. We don't have to wait long, once again the kulaks [i.e. the rich] will be imprisoned, as how much patience can the people have.

Again, it is not a perfect translation, but it does express I believe the sentiment being expressed by one Russian. Some are critical of the fact that the Russian media is quick to point out the flaws in others, yet ignore the suffering in their own country. 

[KenC]

Serebro,
Is your goal to become an antiAmerican troll here like your friend?  You seem to be on her same path now.  If you cannot understand how you are manipulating the facts here, you are not as smart as I give you credit for.  I could ask:"Why are Russians coming to America to kill their children?"  And that would be as valid (or more) than some of your premises made in this thread.

Any time a child is abused or killed by those put in charge of their welfare, it is a tragedy of the gravest order.  No one here would disagree with that. Unfortunately, it happens.  And it happens all over the world.  To take this one case and make such foolish conclusions regarding America, is, well, just stupid.
KenC

[Ronnie]

What Serebro will never realize is that her efforts to denigrate the US and uplift Russia in the eyes of third parties has exactly the opposite effect.
 
Her ludicrous attacks tend to evoke sympathy for America while confirming the proposition that government-controlled Russian news media has once again become an effective anti-western propaganda tool within the inexperienced Russian population.

[Serebro]

gabaub, I spent a night discussing the same thing with Scott yesterday and now you repeat his posts.
KenC

Is your goal to become an antiAmerican troll here like your friend?

I don't have friends on RWD, I don't call people I meet online friends, lovers, boy friends or husbands anymore.I am getting smarter every day.

If you cannot understand how you are manipulating the facts here, you are not as smart as I give you credit for. 

I am not manipulating facts,
From time to time members of RWD start threads about something extraodinary or interesting happening in Russia/FSU.

My FIRST point had the same idea and it didn't mean express any point of view , to manipulate with facts or something, look at it attentively, it hasn't been modified, it was just a link.


 many members of RWD started expressing their ideas of Russian society and that it should be responsible for its present and past and the same time when I started that thread it looked like instead of simple reading it or dicussing this thread people started pointing to Russia and its orphanages... what does the epiedmic of murders in the USA has in common with behavioral problems of children or problems of Russian orphanages?!

Where is your responsibility for what is happening in the USA?!
If you expect Russia to cope with its problems why to show a good example of it instead of pointing at other countries.

Learn to be responsible if you want the others to be responsible.
That's simple.


And it has nothing to do with trolls

I am just trying to be fair.

[BC]

Serebro,

Did you see my posts above? .. or do you have me on ignore...

Some simple answers to simple questions might clarify a lot.

Cheers!