Run for your lives....The propaganda war

[BC]

Einstein is a good example of what states should not do. If Germany hadn't fallen into a nationalistic frenzy and blamed the the world for its problems and persecuted its Jewish population, then Einstein would have stayed in Germany. Sadly, Russia seems intent of following the pre-WWII German path...

But you do get the point I was trying to get across, or?

[Misha]

But you do get the point I was trying to get across, or?

That he moved to the United States and could freely express his views 

[krimster]

"Your claim, you come up with the law text. If not, admit it is false."

In America you must pay income tax
Unfortunately, I can not come up with the law text, therefor according to you it's false.

OK, "Mr, Logic" Are you ready?

Everything I say is a lie
I'm lying 

Oh no, your head exploded!

[Jet]

Krimster, I like ya buddy, really, but you're losing credibility fast. You initiated the argument, so it's up to you to produce compelling evidence to back you position. Cite your source (and not just ''the law in Russia'')

[BC]

That he moved to the United States and could freely express his views 

 

[Misha]

Your claim, you come up with the law text. If not, admit it is false.

This site offers a history of the propiska, the Russian internal passport and how collective farm workers were denied the right to move about freely in Russia: http://www.kc.koenig.ru/aktkbg/KALININ/akkab_01.htm.

The farm workers were effectively tied to the land (much like the serfs of feudal Russia) with the following Soviet law (if anybody is up to it, feel free to translate): "7 декабря 1932 года в Москве председателем ЦИК СССР М. И. Калининым, председателем Совнаркома СССР В. М. Молотовым и секретарем ЦИК СССР А. С. Енукидзе было подписано постановление № 57/1917 “Об установлении единой паспортной системы по Союзу ССР и обязательной прописки паспортов”" In essence, the passport/propiska system was set up in 1932 and not all citizens were given the right to have an internal passport as those on the collective and state farms were excluded.

This law establishing the system of internal passports and the need for a propiska effectively meant that those living in the collective and state farms could not leave as they were denied an internal passport and without this they could not go live elsewhere without the permission of the state.

It took 40 years for the laws to change and for every Soviet citizen to receive the right to an internal passport (and the option of leaving the Collective farm): "В действительности же только 28 августа 1974 года постановлением ЦК КПСС и Совмина СССР “О мерах по дальнейшему совершенствованию паспортной системы в СССР” принимается решение о введении с 1976 года паспорта гражданина СССР нового образца 46 . Это положение о паспортной системе устанавливало, что “паспорт гражданина СССР обязаны иметь все советские граждане, достигшие 16-летнего возраста”. Выдача и обмен новых документов должны были проводиться с 1976 по 1981 год." (someone else can translate, but it specifies the relevant Soviet laws regulating passports and the right that was finally given to all Soviet citizens over the age of 16 to their own internal passport).

It took until the 1970s before all Soviet citizens could get their passport. However, the propiska system has been maintained to this day.

[pitbull]

ok, Krimster, let's finalize the issue. In your answer to my question you wrote:

"Pitbull,
   The quote from the first book was to refute the assertion that "permission would be automatically given" in regards to leaving the kolkholz."



I'll remind you your original claim and the link to "supporting evidence":

Horroshie ludie, as little as 15 years ago, Russians who worked on a farming collective NEEDED PERMISSION TO LEAVE THE COLLECTIVE TO GO WORK ELSEWHERE.

My source:
http://books.google.com/b...3n8G8eJkmhTrwIg&hl=en

First of all, in 1992 NO ONE NEEDED PERMISSION TO LEAVE THE COLLECTIVE TO GO WORK (or study)ELSEWHERE!!!.  You could go to study anywhere in Russia, to work in any city or village, to relocate with your family etc. NO NEED FOR PERMISSION.

The author of the book you cite talks about the privatization process in the early 90-s in Russia, particularly the privatization of the land. The phraze "to leave the collective" on the page cited meant the right that collective farmers obtained with "privatization" to TAKE A PIECE OF LAND from the collective and become independednt farmers. Note that  the minority of collective farm workers opted for this. Some of the collective farm directors' naturally wanted to keep the best pieces of land within the farm and procrastinated the signature process, or used their bureaucratic powers to prevent the loss of the land. This is it. Purely technical problems at some farms.

Not only doesn't your cited source support your claim that collective workers needed permission "to leave the collective to go work elsewhere", it actually shows that the Russian government encouraged people to become independent farmers AND leave the collectives (hence privatization process).

Therefore, your claim is not only outrageously ignorant, you fabricated the "proof", trying to use the source that actually refutes your claim rather than supports it.

As to my credentials regarding knowledge of FSU and it's history - I would not recommend you to argue with me on the topics, for your own good  

[wxman]

the US also has a special type of a visa for talented people/scientists so every time someone of them came to the US and invented something they gave him citizenship and called him american.

Please give me one example where this happened? Name me one person who created an invention in the US, and then the government just gave them citizenship because of their invention. It doesn't work like that. The person still has to go through all the requirements and take the test to become an American. You don't get citizenship for an invention. Talk about propaganda!
Below are the requirements. Where does it say if you invent something, you get citizenship? Please don't make things up.


Naturalization

Naturalization is the process by which U.S. citizenship is conferred upon a foreign citizen or national after he or she fulfills the requirements established by Congress in the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). The general requirements for administrative naturalization include:

a period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States;
residence in a particular USCIS District prior to filing;
an ability to read, write, and speak English;
a knowledge and understanding of U.S. history and government;
good moral character;
attachment to the principles of the U.S. Constitution; and,
favorable disposition toward the United States.
All naturalization applicants must demonstrate good moral character, attachment, and favorable disposition. The other naturalization requirements may be modified or waived for certain applicants, such as spouses of U.S. citizens. Applicants should review the materials listed under "Related Links" and carefully read the N-400 application instructions before applying.

Note: Recent changes in immigration law and USCIS procedures now make it easier for U.S. military personnel to naturalize (see Naturalization Information for Military Personnel).

 

Naturalization Interviews to Be Conducted on Saturdays, Sundays and After Business Hours on Weekdays

In Fiscal Year 2007, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) received a significant increase in naturalization applications.  To address this increase, USCIS is expanding work hours and adding staff to complete these filings within processing time goals.

As part of this effort, many naturalization applicants will receive an appointment notice for an interview that will be scheduled after normal business hours on a weekday, or on Saturday or Sunday, at a USCIS office where their application is being processed.  This interview is very important, and applicants should make every effort to appear for the scheduled interview since the current USCIS policy for rescheduling of interviews still applies.  Please refer to the appointment notice for additional information about the appointment and the rescheduling policy.

Note: Some naturalization interviews may take place at an asylum office within the jurisdiction of the local USCIS office processing the application.

[krimster]

"I would not recommend you to argue with me on the topics, for your own good"

Yes, because I would be laughing too hard about your "knowledge"
Dude, you've NEVER EVEN BEEN THERE.  I lived there three years, what you think you know doesn't compare to what I HAD to learn each day, go back to sleep, please...

[pitbull]

"I would not recommend you to argue with me on the topics, for your own good"

Yes, because I would be laughing too hard about your "knowledge"
Dude, you've NEVER EVEN BEEN THERE.  I lived there three years, what you think you know doesn't compare to what I HAD to learn each day, go back to sleep, please...

 

Thanks, Krimster!!! You made my day!!!
Well, you certainly have problems with reading/observation...eyesight most probably??

[BC]

It took until the 1970s before all Soviet citizens could get their passport. However, the propiska system has been maintained to this day.

Gebaub, not picking on you... really.

FYI 'proposka' is quite standard in many countries, as an American I first thought that this was a big 'issue' living over here vs US, but in the end realized that it would only be beneficial as a homeless person with no bank account or credit card.  Private services in the US (utilized also by the USGOV I bet) are probably just as efficient or even better when trying to locate someone. Can't do a damn thing without that SSAN.

'freedom of movement'  and a propiska system are indeed compatible. 

[Misha]

Gebaub, not picking on you... really.

FYI 'proposka' is quite standard in many countries, as an American I first thought that this was a big 'issue' living over here vs US, but in the end realized that it would only be beneficial as a homeless person with no bank account or credit card.  Private services in the US (utilized also by the USGOV I bet) are probably just as efficient or even better when trying to locate someone. Can't do a damn thing without that SSAN.

'freedom of movement'  and a propiska system are indeed compatible. 

BC, I am curious, how often have you visited Russia? How much time have you spent there? The "propiska" system is very efficient: it is an efficient way for the police in Moscow to earn some extra money shaking down those who are working in Russia (i.e. helping to maintain the economic system) but are not fortunate enough to have the right stamp in their passport 

[krimster]

sorry, I meant to say dudette!

[wxman]

Krimster,

Your ship is sinking! You need to read her posts to see what country she is from! I think she has a whole lot more than 3 years experience.

[pitbull]

wxman,

What does the country I am from have to do with the fact that the dude starts spouting personal insults instead of answering the bloody question about his claim!!!   

Krimster,

Your ship is sinking! You need to read her posts to see what country she is from! I think she has a whole lot more than 3 years experience.

[Makkin]

 I/O,

  Having lived in your country I would doubly decline and be glad that I am not a wenging POM at the same time.
 
  I/O you have the ability to be the smart-azz as often as you like but an expert on statistics you are not. Please explain your stupid facts for me better Mate-E

Makkin

[wxman]

wxman,

What does the country I am from have to do with the fact that the dude starts spouting personal insults instead of answering the bloody question about his claim!!!   

pitbull,

I was referring to his post where he said you had never lived in the FSU and his claim that you have no experience with such matters. I was trying to point out to him his error on that post alone, not on his claims. 

[55North]

.......be glad that I am not a wenging POM at the same time.
 

Hey Makkin, we're not a bloody wenging Poms!  It's whingeing Poms.  Get it right. 

Whinge over.   

BTW.  Pom

Pommy |ˌpɒmi| (also Pommie)
noun ( pl. -mies) Austral./NZ, informal offensive
a British person.
ORIGIN early 20th cent.: of unknown origin; said by some to be short for pomegranate, as a near rhyme to immigrant, but evidence is lacking.
 
Shite poets then.   

[BC]

BC, I am curious, how often have you visited Russia? How much time have you spent there? The "propiska" system is very efficient: it is an efficient way for the police in Moscow to earn some extra money shaking down those who are working in Russia (i.e. helping to maintain the economic system) but are not fortunate enough to have the right stamp in their passport 

IIRC 3 times with a business side trip to UA.  Never had a problem except for one time when I 'somehow' overstayed my visa but did get a new visa for an additional week or two from OVIR, but dummy me did not think about the necessity to register the new one.. at the same office that issued it.  Had one control stop on the drive from Kyiv to southern Ukraine but they just wanted drivers papers, didn't even ask for mine.  Wifey told me to just shut up at the UE RU border while riding the train, she gave em hell and that was it.  I relaxed.

Here in IT, as in many EU countries it is required that I carry some type of official ID, but have never been asked for more than a drivers licence when caught speeding or with normal control stops in over 25 years..  Maybe 5 times in total.

[Simoni]

Pitbull-- you are a woman, living in Boston, right?

You are NOT from Ukraine, but Russia, correct?

And although it says on your screen profile that you have been "looking" for two years, you are in fact married, correct?

And highly educated, too :-)

[krimster]

sorry, but Pitbull's profile states "number of trips to FSU: none", this is her information.

If PitBull is a woman (such a warm feminine sounding name that is), I wonder does she come to www.russianwoendiscussion.com to help her search for a Russian woman soul mate? (not that there's anything wrong with that!)

[BC]

sorry, but Pitbull's profile states "number of trips to FSU: none", this is her information.

If PitBull is a woman (such a warm feminine sounding name that is), I wonder does she come to www.russianwoendiscussion.com to help her search for a Russian woman soul mate? (not that there's anything wrong with that!)

Contempt prior to investigation? 

[Jet]

If PitBull is a woman (such a warm feminine sounding name that is)

Keep poking her with a sharp stick and find out how she got that warm feminine name 

[groovlstk]

sorry, but Pitbull's profile states "number of trips to FSU: none", this is her information.

If PitBull is a woman (such a warm feminine sounding name that is), I wonder does she come to www.russianwoendiscussion.com to help her search for a Russian woman soul mate? (not that there's anything wrong with that!)

Krimster, your experience on the ground in Ukraine makes you a great source of information and a valuable foil for the resident pie-in-the-sky posters who want everyone to believe the FSU is some sort of utopia.

However, your withering cynisym and predictable Russophobia wear me out. Why would any member here wish to look for a woman in Ukraine and Russia if both are teeming pits of dishonesty, poverty, and desperation, as you constantly exhort?

BTW, I happen to know Pitbull and her husband. Both are not only wonderful people, but Ph.Ds who'd eat your lunch (and after-dinner cognac) in any debate 

[ScottinCrimea]

Another classic example of someone who loses the debate so instead shifts it to personal attacks.  In this case, the rocket turned out to be a dud.