Why is it referred to as "The Great Patriotic War"?

[2tallbill]

2Tall, have you thought about this at all?
How do you launch gliders if you don't have air superiority? Gliders are big, fat and slow. And make real good targets. The Russians did not have air superiority until later in the war when they could feild aircraft like the IL-2 for ground attack and the Yak-9 for fighter duties.

I really doubt Russia had such large stockpiles considering how desparate they were for materials under lend lease. Even such basics like Radios were always in very short supply in forward units. So you had situations with one tank in a single troop with a Radio and the rest being controlled by signal. Now imagine the results if that single tank is knocked out?

Like I said - seems like crap to me.
The treaty - as discussed earlier in this threat is the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact.
I think even Stalin knew one day Hitler would attack, it was just the timing caught him off guard.

There is probably a kernel of truth  in the book - but if so it is well hidden.

On the part of gliders the US used gliders during the Normandy invasion, they are an offensive weapon and rarely did the US have air superiority.

As for lend lease the US sent relatively few tanks to Russia (7,056), but a lot of trucks (375,883) locomotives (1,981) Russia built less than 80 locomotives during the entire war. 

Like I said before I am not defending the book, but I am sure that Russia had a plan in place to eventually invade Germany but Germany invaded first which eventually led to their demise.

[msmoby_ru]

On the part of gliders the US used gliders during the Normandy invasion, they are an offensive weapon and rarely did the US have air superiority.

The "allies" had air superiority...

[deccie]

On the part of gliders the US used gliders during the Normandy invasion, they are an offensive weapon and rarely did the US have air superiority.

2Tall, Gliders have NO weapons. They are completely passive and are a BIG FAT target until they get on the ground and discharge their cargo and as another writer pointed out the Allies DID have air superiority. Until the glider is on the ground the gilder is VERY vulnerable. The tow aircraft is as well  until it releases.

As for lend lease the US sent relatively few tanks to Russia (7,056), but a lot of trucks (375,883) locomotives (1,981) Russia built less than 80 locomotives during the entire war. 

The UK and Canada also sent tanks and other vehicles to the USSR. It wasn't just an American show you know.

What is also not disclosed on the numbers you cite about is the TIMING of when they arrived. They arrived at an absolutely crucial juncture when Russia was relocating factories about to be over run. Sometimes raw numbers are not the most critical factor at all.

You also fail to mention the aircraft sent. Aircraft like the P-39 Airacobra. A useful aircraft with a heavy weapon in a time of great need. Havocs, Mitchells and other types were also sent.

[SANDRO43]

2Tall, Gliders have NO weapons. They are completely passive and are a BIG FAT target until they get on the ground and discharge their cargo and as another writer pointed out the Allies DID have air superiority. Until the glider is on the ground the gilder is VERY vulnerable. The tow aircraft is as well  until it releases.

Furthermore, the glider fleet took off during the night, to land at pre-dawn:

Take-off was scheduled for approximately 12:10am, on the morning of the 6th, with touchdown in enemy territory at 4:00am near Heisville.

http://www.71stsos.com/normandygeobuckley.html
Therefore, they could have been intercepted only by German night fighters, of which there were precious few in the area, most of them being based in Holland and Germany to counter the RAF night bombing raids.

[Ronnie]

well since you beleive the great one world government is coming it's a bit hard to debate anything with you logically Ronnie.

I agree wholeheartedly.  There can be no debate employing logic where there is a complete absence of it on one side or the other.

How the US expects Russia just to sit back and take that I just have no understanding of...

Refreshing candor.

[SANDRO43]

As it often happens, this thread is running its "natural" course:

1. The original question has been answered a few days ago.
2. Now it's rambling in all sorts of directions .

May I presume to remind to some argumentative contributors that "The Great Patriotic War" refers to WWII, and not to an as-yet-fortunately-unexploded WWIII ?

[Jet]

The UK and Canada also sent tanks and other vehicles to the USSR. It wasn't just an American show you know.

What is also not disclosed on the numbers you cite about is the TIMING of when they arrived. They arrived at an absolutely crucial juncture when Russia was relocating factories about to be over run. Sometimes raw numbers are not the most critical factor at all.

You also fail to mention the aircraft sent. Aircraft like the P-39 Airacobra. A useful aircraft with a heavy weapon in a time of great need. Havocs, Mitchells and other types were also sent.

Here's a decent source for British and US lend-lease contributions:
http://wio.ru/tank/ll.htm#avia

Some notable negative aspects of the lend lease programs were:

• Many of sent vehicles (tanks, planes, etc.) were used and in bad condition Although, the British were very helpful in 1941..42
• Lend-Lease vehicles were worse than modern Soviets ones Although, at the time USSR had many even more obsolete tanks and planes
• Goverment delays, smaller numbers than promised

[deccie]

• Lend-Lease vehicles were worse than modern Soviets ones Although, at the time USSR had many even more obsolete tanks and planes

That is defintely true. The Matilda and Valentine both had 2pdr weapons with limited armour piercing capacity. British tanks were always behind until very late in the war when the Comet turned up on the scene. They had some "useful" tanks but rarely any very good all round ones. Even tanks like the Churchill had a lot of "shot traps" and were deficient in curved armour.  The Matilda had very good armour but I'm not sure how well it's suspension would have dealt with the snow.

The the Lee/Grant with it's side mounted 75mm gun would be quite inferior to a T-34 or Kv-1.

[SANDRO43]

The Matilda and Valentine both had 2pdr weapons with limited armour piercing capacity...

Since we had even poorer tanks, a captured Matilda was a "Valentine card" to us .

The Matilda had very good armour but I'm not sure how well it's suspension would have dealt with the snow

I wonder if Oz tank troops were humming "Waltzing Matilda" when riding through the North African desert .

[deccie]

Cool pic Sandro.

Both the Matilda and Valentine are "favourite" tanks of mine. (I build model kits).
I've been fortunate enough to see one Matilda and I've seen a "monster truck" on TV that used a Valentine tankchassis as the base. What a waste of a good tank.. 

Australian forces did use the Matilda quite extensively.  Luckily for us the Japanese had even worse tanks than the Italian.

When the Matilda II first came into service (Battle of France if I recall) they were actually better than a lot of the German tanks they faced  epecially the early Pzkpfw I and Pzkpf II's. Unfortunately there were not enough of them to make a real difference. Even the French Char B was better than most German tanks of the time. But it was handicaped by a hull mounted gun and a one man turret. (with a second lighter weapon)

[Jet]

Last trip to Germany I bought a 1/72 kit of a JU-290. I'm looking forward to building it but will only do so once i have stopped moving around.

Deccie,
Since you build, you *might* appreciate this. One of my all time favorite WW-2 fighters, the MiG 3 high altitude interceptor:




It's my interpretation of "black 12" (second plane behind "Red 02") from the famous photo taken on March 7 1942 of the 120 IAP of the Moscow Air Defense. Still need to actually add the black 12 to the tail  . It's the Trumpeter 1/35 kit.

[deccie]

Very interesting website jet - thanks.
Confirmed most of what I thought although I was unaware Churchill's were also sent to Russia.

The worst vehicle on that page would have been the Tetrach.
Not a tank you would be wanting to fight a full blown battle with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrarch_tank

[deccie]

Deccie,
Since you build, you *might* appreciate this. One of my all time favorite WW-2 fighters, the MiG 3 high altitude interceptor.

It's my interpretation of "black 12" (second plane behind "Red 02") from the famous photo taken on March 7 1942 of the 120 IAP of the Moscow Air Defense. Still need to actually add the black 12 to the tail  . It's the Trumpeter 1/35 kit.

Nice kit Jet - you do good stuff. Although 1/35 is a weird scale for Aircraft. Personally I like the Yak 9 better. One of my "wants" is to see if I can track down a Esci Tu-22M 1/72 Blinder. It's just so cool to look at. That and a Tu-95...

Model kits and computers are two hobbies Ksenia just doesn't understand....

[deccie]

My only kit photo I have electronic..

My 1/600 HMS Belfast..

The only real "mistake" I made was to do the life rafts in yellow.

[deccie]

A sample of a friend's collection.

[Jet]

Although 1/35 is a weird scale for Aircraft. Personally I like the Yak 9 better. One of my "wants" is to see if I can track down a Esci Tu-22M 1/72 Blinder. It's just so cool to look at. That and a Tu-95...

Model kits and computers are two hobbies Ksenia just doesn't understand....

LOL Liliya doesn't understand either, but I've learned an awful lot about the VVS through researching to build the kits.
1/35 is a weird scale but it fits nicely beside my Zvezda Katusha. Mostly I stick with 1/72 scale as it takes up less space therefore generating less complaints from the wife 

The little guy and I are in the midst of a project to try to assemble a collection of all the planes ever produced at Zavod № 21 in N. Novgorod, but we're not even halfway through yet. We started with ICM's Polikarpov B-5, and then Hasegawa's I-16, the LaGG-3, all the Lavochkins except the LA-5 razorback, & the MiG 15. We'll start on the Mig 21 when he returns in August.

The I-16 in an obscure parade paint scheme from 1939

The La-7 in Flanker colors - cuz Kolya thought grey on grey was too boring 


The TU 22 & 95 are both monsters but very cool indeed  and very nice work on the Belfast - I've never tried my hand at ships, they look like they'd take way more attention than I'm willing to devote at any given time  . Your friend's collection is very nice as well! I even noticed a pair of P-3 Orions in the second shot, a plane that's near and dear to my heart, as my Dad headed up the team that designed most of the computer systems on the originals.

[Jet]

  hehehehe looks like I've managed to hijack my own thread 

[deccie]

LOL Liliya doesn't understand either, but I've learned an awful lot about the VVS through researching to build the kits.

Glad  to see I'm not the only one to get wondering looks. (-:

1/35 is a weird scale but it fits nicely beside my Zvezda Katusha. Mostly I stick with 1/72 scale as it takes up less space therefore generating less complaints from the wife 

I stick to 1/72 as well. It goes with the armour kits.

The little guy and I are in the midst of a project to try to assemble a collection of all the planes ever produced at Zavod № 21 in N. Novgorod, but we're not even halfway through yet. We started with ICM's Polikarpov B-5, and then Hasegawa's I-16, the LaGG-3, all the Lavochkins except the LA-5 razorback, & the MiG 15. We'll start on the Mig 21 when he returns in August.

Sounds like a worthy objective. As for me, I build what i like - whatever it is. in general i like the Sukhoi's over the Migs. I like the Su-22 in particular.

The La-7 in Flanker colors - cuz Kolya thought grey on grey was too boring 

I think the Flanker colours suit it. I painted an Israeli Kfir in a similar scheme once.

Your friend's collection is very nice as well! I even noticed a pair of P-3 Orions in the second shot, a plane that's near and dear to my heart, as my Dad headed up the team that designed most of the computer systems on the originals.

My friend's collection is indeed impressive. Those photos only show about 2% of it. I have a 1/72 Orion in my own collection unbuilt. Which gets me on to the downside of kits - moving. My friend has lived in the same city all his life. In part because of his kits.  I think he moved twice in 15 years and moved his kits all by hand. whereas I have tended to move both more often and for greater distances... so now I only build kits that move easily until I am more settled.

The Orion is a cool plane. It recently celebrated 40 years of service in the RAAF. Only one has been lost in a flying accident with another lost to ground fire. (i.e. burning)

[deccie]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/30/2260735.htm

[tfcrew]

Actually, I am talking about the Katyn Wood massacre of Polish military by Red Army troops.

22,000 dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre

• <ins></ins>

New Katyn Massacre Documents May Cause Political StirTopic: Katyn massacre discussionNew Katyn Massacre Documents May Cause Political Stir © RIA Novosti. Anna Chernova19:44 11/09/2012MOSCOW, September 11 (Dan Peleschuk, RIA Novosti)

<ins><ins></ins></ins>Recently declassified materials that point to a U.S. cover-up of a Soviet massacre of Polish officers and prisoners more than 70 years ago may reignite the intense debate over historical memory and wartime allegiances in Eastern Europe, as well as lead to wide-ranging political repercussions, analysts said.
 
“If you look at the whole story, no one looks particularly pretty,” said Dmitry Babich, an international affairs commentator for the Voice of Russia and a member of the Polish-Russian Journalists’ Club. “It’s the reason we are still seeing new documents released, and obviously not very willingly – neither in Russia nor in the West.”

Related News

• U.S. to Share Katyn Massacre Data With Poland
• European Court 'Could Not' Rule on Russia's Katyn Investigation
• Russia may exonerate Katyn victims – Lavrov
• Strasbourg court has no mandate to exonerate Katyn victims says Russia

• Katyn memorial now symbolizes two tragedies

[mendeleyev]

Nice pick, tf. I saw the similar article in the Moscow Times. Very interesting stuff, more damning info on Franklin D Roosevelt. http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/secret-memos-show-us-hushed-up-katyn-crime/467881.html

[ML]

Not defending FDR in particular, but in times of war and other such national emergencies, there are a lot of trade-offs that occur. 

If viewed in isolation, the choices can be viewed with great disgust.
But if each of us were put in the situations, and had all the relevant info . . . who knows what each of us would do.

As suggested FDR was playing to the Soviet Union in this case.
Later, our government did not try to prosecute several known very, very bad guys in the gestapo, etc., . . . simply because they had the best intelligence network going . . . against the Soviets . . . and we wanted to use them.

[LGA]

Because it's great.

[Boethius]

I missed this the first go around, but heard it today.  A very interesting programme on history, in general -


http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2013/07/02/revising-history-1/

[mendeleyev]

Bo, I found myself nodding in agreement minute by minute to this excellent programme.

I found no disagreement but would point out that while Vladimir Putin has indeed latched onto the GPW Victory as a means of unifying all of the Russias and of young to old, nevertheless the one of the greatest and largest celebrations of the year, Victory Day, has been that way for decades. It was not an idea of VP, but rather an already smooth and fast running train and VP naturally was already on board because it was how he grew up in the CCCP.

Having been on Red Square during celebrations and parades, it has been enlightening to see that a single four year period has so much power in bringing generations together. I am continually amazed at the sight of young people randomly approaching elderly veterans and offering thanks and presenting them with flowers. This is a practice repeated all across the FSU on Victory Day (9 May) and one in which I gladly participate. Sadly, we're 68 years past that dreadful period and the government is still lagging behind on the promise of free housing for some of those brave Red Army veterans.

Those 1418 fountains at Moscow's Victory Park, one for each day of the war, run red at night and to this day still stir and overwhelm my emotions. Some 26-28 million died and the rivers at times indeed did run red.





We hear a lot about atrocities committed by the German Army and their SS divisions. But in this part of the world very little is revealed about the wanton rapes and murders of innocent German women and children when the Red Army rolled Westward. When those stories are mentioned, generally there is a quick justification about retaliation for crimes committed by the Germans on Soviet soil. Well you can't have it both ways--a crime against the defenseless on Soviet soil is just as much a crime when committed against the defenseless outside of the Soviet sphere.

I also agree that the biggest danger of the accepted history of the GPW today is the creeping re-Stalinization that is unfortunately a problem today. Stalin is undeservedly honoured today and his overall role in victory continues to be much overstated. The old veteran wants to return to the "stability" of that day which highlights the selective amnesia as nobody wants to return to the Gulags and mock trials of the time of Stalin's terror. These old veterans don't seem to recall that it was Stalin's brutality that defined his personality and style of rule.

Too many youth gloss over Stalin's murderous side, as if his insane wrath had some been reserved only for Caucasians and Asians who if a strong leader re-emerged today, would put those non-ethnic Russians in their place and achieve a "Russia is for Russians" utopia. They seem to refuse to believe that some of their own grandparents and great-grandparents perished when the great Stalin ruled the Soviet Union.

Russia is a great nation and a great people. They can survive even when confronted with the truth of history. In fact, doing so will make them even stronger.