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Author Topic: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)  (Read 23186 times)

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Offline Ronnie

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2008, 12:24:12 PM »
Sandro,
Your right that history isn't made up of "ifs" and "buts" however, the entire point raised by Serebro (I believe) was a theory of delay in opening up the western front.  First, the western front was already open before Barbarossa - it's just that the good guys were losing - and even if there was ill-intent on the allies part (from Serebro's POV) against the soviets, it may very well have been for good reason if British intelligence knew of the Zhukov plan.  Even if they didn't USSR had already demonstrated a willingness to invade nonbelligerents as I mentioned.  It would not have taken too much imagination to anticipate the icebreaker strategy/theory.  So the allies had good reasons for wanting the Wehrmacht to wear down the Red Army and vice versa.  The result was that such a strategy, if it existed may have saved millions of civilian lives on all sides, including and perhaps especially, on the Soviet side.
One can only imagine how different the world would be had the Soviets invaded Germany and Nazi-occupied europe.  Hitler didn't expect a Soviet double-cross any more than Stalin expected it from Hitler.  Each foolishingly assuming perhaps, that he himself was the evilest of geniuses. 
Ronnie
Fourth year now living in Ukraine.  Speak Russian, Will Answer Questions.

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #101 on: April 18, 2008, 12:46:11 PM »
if there was ill-intent on the allies part (from Serebro's POV) against the soviets, it may very well have been for good reason if British intelligence knew of the Zhukov plan.
I doubt whether MI6 may have been aware of Zhukov's plan, or they'd have attached much significance to it, had they known about it.
Quote
Even if they didn't USSR had already demonstrated a willingness to invade nonbelligerents as I mentioned. It would not have taken too much imagination to anticipate the icebreaker strategy/theory. So the allies had good reasons for wanting the Wehrmacht to wear down the Red Army and vice versa.
I'd wager that their concern was much more short-term tactical than far-away strategical, i.e. a weaker declared opponent (Germany) first, and a weaker declared but untrusworthy ally (USSR) only later on, possibly.
Quote
Hitler didn't expect a Soviet double-cross any more than Stalin expected it from Hitler.  Each foolishingly assuming perhaps, that he himself was the evilest of geniuses.
Assuming that Zhukov's plan was indeed submitted to Stalin, and considering the latter's sweet character/disposition, his rejection was probably more based on practical grounds, IMHO, rather than on not wanting to piss off the Nazis ;D.

Anyway, this is just interesting speculation on our part ;).
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 03:44:50 PM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline mischief

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #102 on: April 18, 2008, 03:34:35 PM »
And Stalin sure wasn't in a rush to ally with Western Europe, since he was still plotting against "World Imperialism" at the onset of WWII. :)
yep...

I did not read the topic and have only a slight idea what was argued about... just thought it might be interesting if share some things that I learned from my grandfather ... He was a colonel and died from the wounds shortly after I was born.  He left a war notes for my dad which I used as a reference when learning history...
As far as I know Stalin received several warning about the coming attack but did not do anything. There were different political intrigues going on... Whether Stalin did not believe that Hitler was going to attack or something else, who knows now... but the fact is army was not prepared for attack... there was not enough of people, armament, provision or anything else for that matter... the whole army was pretty much disorganized when war was declared....My grandpa started as a captain of penal battalion. Basically all poorly armed prisoners were used as a shield for soldiers and if they refused to go they would be shot by our soldiers.  Another interesting thing lots of orders would come from the people who were not on the battlefield... for example, there will be a tower with two German solders on top... what would two soldiers do? just go around them... but a detachment would get an order to take this tower so they would loose 50 -60 soldiers just to take those two down... where is the logic?
I'm sorry I don't have time to put things I remember in good English...  But my belief is if the soviet army was properly trained, equipped, if the orders would come from the qualified people and if a single life were at any value there would never be such unspeakable amount of war victims...
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 03:44:28 PM by mischief »

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #103 on: April 18, 2008, 03:50:31 PM »
some things that I learned from my grandfather ... He was a colonel and died from the wounds shortly after I was born. He left a war notes for my dad which I used as a reference when learning history...
Mischief, if that diary is still in your family's possession and is descriptive of your grandfather's experiences, it might be a publishing success in today's Russian climate ;).
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline tim 360

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #104 on: April 18, 2008, 04:07:54 PM »
Mischief,  Such an interesting post.  You are lucky your Grandfather took notes on the war and gave them to your Father.  I have read some accounts of just what your Grandfather wrote about.  Thank you for posting the information.

What I gather is Stalin did not expect the Nazi's would attack Russia.  They had a treaty and certain agreements on countries.  Many historians find that strange because Stalin trusted very few and not for very long yet he trusted Hitler. Thus, Russia was not very well prepared for war when Hitler's surprise came.  It has been reported by those there at the time that Stalin was completely stunned.

I think that just a year or two previous that 90% of the top Russian military was purged and either shot or sent to the Gulag.  And that the officers who replaced them were inexperienced at best.  I would think that alone would cause some problems on the battlefield in the early fighting.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2008, 04:09:27 PM by tim 360 »
"Never argue with a fool,  onlookers may not be able to tell the difference".  Mark Twain

Offline I/O

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #105 on: April 18, 2008, 06:39:51 PM »
You see, I do not completely agree with that. While prudent to consider the imbalance among many who circulate in the internet, there is a measure of human decency which everyone has a right to expect. Sure, we have seen it repeatedly violated, but that is no reason to 'give up' on it. If you 'give up' the crazies win.- Dan

Dan: I'd like to take you up on this point. In principal, I agree with your sentiments. In practice, I can see it is not worth it. Such a pity I think. Personally, I am laughing long that AD have gone on discussing those photos because it simply demonstrates what I have been saying for a long time, a group of disgruntled hens with nothing better to think about. For me personally, it is slightly different. I don't care who says what about how I look or the fence in the background of one photo. I almost take it as a compliment they are so interested.

Nevertheless, for you it is slightly different as it is for my wife, who is quite upset about it, particularly the way it was done, that is, copying photos, storing them in a private folder and then posting links. That is the action of someone seriously mentally disturbed. Dan, I understood, perhaps I was wrong, sometime ago you were looking at software to provide some protection from this sort of thing? By way of example, and I admit to knowing nothing about this sort of thing, on another site, they simply have some sort of system where you can't "right mouse" click on a photo and copy it. Sure it is probably limited protection, but it might stop the casual idiots. Just a thought.

I find it ironic, and to this extent I agree with some of what is being said over yonder, that so many people now want to put up the flag of support for the departed in retrospect. So much value? Nonsense. What value? Rarely did the poster tell the same thing twice on a given subject. Clearly has limited to little knowledge of her own country and relies heavily on chasing a few internet links to support theory when the going gets tough. Considers she can say whatever she like to whomever and justify it as "Being Honest". When others dare to be honest with her, she screams and shouts exactly as a spoiled child who can't have her own way.

Apart from raising the flag of what a handful of undesirable Russian Women can be like in the eyes of the freshmen, IMO she provided no value whatsoever and her departure has left an opening for this place to improve. I hope the opportunity is taken.

Dan, I also have read through much of the AD thread and I note some people there have taken quite a balanced view. I note she was advised severally there, if she doesn't like it someplace else to simply stay away. Personally, although she will never see it, from what I can read and understand, I think the thread on AD has only served to highlight her own foolishness in the eyes of her own country women. Backfired might be a better word.

KenC has copped a fair bashing over some use of words here and I have avoided direct comment before now, but a balance must be put forward. Ken is as tough as they come and as gentlemanly as they come all wrapped together. Anyone who can't see that is too blind for words. I suspect Ken, as I do, immensely admires the women folk here who come as ladies. Their strength is their femininity IMO. I think the toughest of the guys here, including Ken would walk a thousand miles without shoes to help any of them, for what? Simply because they are ladies deserving that respect and honor. The departed poster does not fall into that category. Gutter snipes are deserving of nothing. I know what my wife's opinion of this person is after simply reading a few posts for about 10 minutes. I suspect LenC would say much they same. (Probably better not said on here as it would be somewhat colourful) I glean that BF is of similar opinion.

What loss of value? I submit.........none. Dan you had an extremely difficult job to do with this one and I am all too aware you probably were under pressure from several angles, however, I thought, in the end, from public view, you handled it strategically and with dignity. I was/am impressed. :clapping:

I/O     

Offline William3rd

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #106 on: April 18, 2008, 07:41:37 PM »
William,  On Dec 8th 1941 congress voted a Declaration of War on Japan.  On Dec 11th (3 days later) congress voted a Declaration of War on Germany and another on Italy.  Cheerio, tim360

AFTER Hitler declared war on us, right?

Offline Ronnie

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #107 on: April 18, 2008, 10:06:07 PM »
Both declarations occured on December 11, 1941.  Because of the time difference it's reasonable to assume that Germany's came first.  Germany's declaration was really a declaration that America had been the aggressor and therefore a state of war already existed.
Ronnie
Fourth year now living in Ukraine.  Speak Russian, Will Answer Questions.

Offline tim 360

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #108 on: April 19, 2008, 06:03:56 AM »
Hey William,  Yes.  Germany declared war first thing on the morning of the 11th.  A couple hours later the US reciprociated.  With the treatys in place it was a done deal. Ronnie: Time difference, yes. 
"Never argue with a fool,  onlookers may not be able to tell the difference".  Mark Twain

Offline ScottinCrimea

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #109 on: April 19, 2008, 04:44:55 PM »
gabaub,
And you probably never will see an apology.  You certainly are entitled to your opinion.  As I have posted in this thread:
I cannot continue to be respectful to those that show me disrespect.  Man or woman.
  When a member here chooses to take an aggressive path, as I believe Serebro did, then they can expect the replies to be aggressive too.  The aggression started from Serebro, not me.
KenC

I'm sorry, but to me, this just looks like two children covered in mud and pointing fingers at each other saying, "He started it!"

Aggression does not always require an aggressive response, and name calling should be reserved for the sandboxes.

Offline Daveman

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #110 on: April 19, 2008, 06:04:48 PM »
I'm sorry, but to me, this just looks like two children covered in mud and pointing fingers at each other saying, "He started it!"

Aggression does not always require an aggressive response, and name calling should be reserved for the sandboxes.

Typically I'd agree here, but in this situation - even if it were an episode of childish name calling - the fact that one party took photos and posted them elsewhere in a bit of a tantrum is ridiculous, childish, and there is no excuse for that - regardless of how pissed off someone becomes.

We saw the beginning of a meltdown once before when she lashed out at another member of the board here who formerly had relations with her. Granted, his actions kinda brought that situation upon himself but the spiraling temper was obvious at that time.  Unfortunately this type vindictiveness is an all too common trait and best avoided in relationships (duh - duh - duh.. watch for the warning signs which are always present and get the hell away from it). I'm sure it's common in people in general, but it seems more prevalent in FSUW (probably because we tend to analyze and generalize their behavior more).

This episode went beyond name calling and finger pointing into wacked out behavior.  Both could have handled the disagreement itself differently, but that really isn't the issue here as I see it.  People get into it here on a regular basis, sling a bit of mud and then go back to normal.  We accept that as part of the life of RWD... but deliberately malicious acts such as what occurred in this situation cross the line of tolerance.



The duty of a true patriot is to protect his country from its government. -- Thomas Paine

Offline ScottinCrimea

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #111 on: April 19, 2008, 06:34:43 PM »
Daveman, I agree, her posting photos in another forum was totally malicious and unacceptable, but that occured after the events on this forum.

While I don't agree in the least with Serebro's temper tantrum, I also know that when dealing with a petulant child, the solution is not to go down to their level.  Calmer, more mature heads should prevail and seek to diffuse the situation, not feed the flames.  While Dan certainly made every effort to do so, others on the board did not.

Offline KenC

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #112 on: April 23, 2008, 08:29:26 AM »
I'm sorry, but to me, this just looks like two children covered in mud and pointing fingers at each other saying, "He started it!"

Aggression does not always require an aggressive response, and name calling should be reserved for the sandboxes.
Scott,
Sweet words of advice, but kind of like the pot calling the kettle black IMO based on your other words:

Put on your reading glasses old man and maybe it will be clearer.

Come on Kenny, give me yet another blast of bullying to hide your inadequacies".

what a pile of BS this post was!

Serebro,  I've grown tired of waiting to see if you have anything of benefit to contribute and it's obvious that no amount of reason, logic or facts will change the strange ideas in that silly little mind of yours, so I have nothing to offer you.

Don't throw out the "I was just providing information" crap.   Pretty pathetic.

KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline ScottinCrimea

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #113 on: April 23, 2008, 09:15:01 AM »
Yes Ken, I'll admit that I've crawled down into the mud to join you a couple of times recently, and I feel the dirtier for it.  In another recent post of mine I wrote, "I think we all need to take a step back and see if we are contributing to the problem or rising above it."  Still, I would call two insults directed at you and one at Serebro (the other post attacks only the post itself, not the author) as an aberration, not a a pattern. A constructive response to dealing with a problem that has driven many good members away and created a negative tone for this forum isn't "Well he did it too!", nor is it, "Take it or leave it, I ain't gonna change!"

Offline KenC

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #114 on: April 23, 2008, 09:44:50 AM »
Yes Ken, I'll admit that I've crawled down into the mud to join you a couple of times recently, and I feel the dirtier for it.  In another recent post of mine I wrote, "I think we all need to take a step back and see if we are contributing to the problem or rising above it."  Still, I would call two insults directed at you and one at Serebro (the other post attacks only the post itself, not the author) as an aberration, not a a pattern. A constructive response to dealing with a problem that has driven many good members away and created a negative tone for this forum isn't "Well he did it too!", nor is it, "Take it or leave it, I ain't gonna change!"
Scott,
I made the point I wanted to make here.  As a way of clarification, some of the quotes came from exchanges I was not a particpant in too.  I understand that my style of posting is not for everyone, but there are also many here that do appreciate my no nonsense style of posting too.  But over all I tend to agree that I have been far too aggressive in my attempts to help people here.  I cannot promise that I will not offend some in the future when I post the obvious, but I will try to be less offensive in the future.  In return, I only ask that you view my future posts objectively and do not harbor any retaliatory feelings for the past conflicts you and I have had.  It is time for you and I to move on.
KenC
You are a den of vipers and thieves-Andrew Jackson on banks
Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline AnastassiaAsh

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #115 on: April 23, 2008, 10:18:55 AM »
Can anybody give me a link here where Serebro posted Dan's pics or other info, please? I missed it. Thanks.

Offline possum

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #116 on: April 23, 2008, 10:22:08 AM »
Can anybody give me a link here where Serebro posted Dan's pics or other info, please? I missed it. Thanks.

It's over at Antidate in the 'tripper-reporters' section.. :D
Why get a ball and chain when you can get the milk for free?

Offline ScottinCrimea

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #117 on: April 23, 2008, 10:41:25 AM »
Ken,
I think we both want to see the forum be a comfortable place to post our thoughts, experiences and advice.  I am one who appreciates your no nonsense style.  I don’t ask that you change this, only that you focus on the posts, not the poster.  I think there has been a recent pattern of retaliatory postings on both our parts and I agree that this has to stop.
As you recall, I accepted your challenge to review your posts on this forum to find the inconsistencies there.   Here is what I found;
Overall, you consistently provide excellent advice and have been a tremendous asset to this board
The “overly aggressive” nature of your posts was minimal in the beginning but progressively increased over time to where it overshadowed your other contributions.  In January you apologized for this and promised to change, but this lasted only two months.
I did find inconsistencies in what you posted at various times.  Some of this related to “fuzzy math” where you increased or decreased the length of time of certain events to support your argument better.  At other times the recounting of events was changed slightly to allow you to appear in a better light or make your point more tenable.  In some cases you gave advice to others that went contrary to what you yourself had done but reworded it to better rationalize your actions.  I see this as more human nature and not a flaw in any particular individual.  It shouldn’t be something that is brought up to question a person’s current post unless egregious.  For example, I have seen inconsistencies between prior posts and your current trip report but to bring these up would only serve to undermine what is proving to be an excellent read and a learning experience for those new to this.
As do many here, you sometimes go beyond those areas where you have experience or expertise when offering advice and then become defensive when challenged on this.  While being married to a RW for going on 9 years is a tremendous accomplishment (whether hers or yours is a matter of conjecture and friendly kidding), it is used too often as your basis of expertise when your “credentials” are challenged.
You don’t tolerate behavior in some others that you sometimes justify in yourself. Again, human nature to various degrees.
These are my observations only and you can agree or disagree.  There were other things that I observed, some positive and some negative, but these were the main things.
I still wouldn’t want to sit down and have a beer with you, but I hope we can agree to let things go and both work toward the betterment of this forum.

Offline KenC

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #118 on: April 23, 2008, 11:10:27 AM »
Scott,
I guess I consider that if under your close scrutiny, you have only come up with some vague semi-inconsistancies that I have "passed the test." 8)

Consider the hatchet buried.
KenC
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Banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies-Thomas Jefferson

Offline krimster

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #119 on: April 23, 2008, 11:13:22 AM »
"In some cases you gave advice to others that went contrary..."

Yes, absolutely appalling!  How can anyone do such  thing?

"I don’t ask that you change this, only that you..."

Scott, I think KenC can post whatever he damned well feels like posting without interference or lecturing from anyone.   If this blog is so vital to your well being that you feel compelled to coerce others into accepting conditions that you yourself have violated repeatedly, including this most recent thread, then it must be awfully lonely for you out there in Utah.

Scott, why wouldn't you have a beer with Ken?  That sounds petty to me Scott, I'd be more than happy to share a piva with you.  I would however probably not want to go fishing with you, because I'd have to read here about the world's record fish you caught and how wonderful the conditions were and the deluxe accomodations on the yacht, when in reality you had to throw the fish back because it was so small, it rained the whole time and we were on a leaky row boat.








 Previously warned. Harassing another member is a violation of the ToS.

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #120 on: April 23, 2008, 11:45:53 AM »


  Fishing is fun stuff but when a type of person shows up to fish and expects it to be similar to a thought process then you have trouble. Eventually the mental aspect evolves into friendship but on a few occasions I've seen where a person does not have a clue to what fishing really is. Maybe Scott would discover that fishing is like thinking but without an ounce of criticism intended to anyone as it's a surprise to see the fish hauled in rather than plant a harvest. In fishing he may find that surprises come naturally and the fisherman is as natural and complete as one could ever hope to be.

Makkin
FUBAR

Offline krimster

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #121 on: April 23, 2008, 12:01:29 PM »
Fishing should be about anticipation, relaxation, good fellowship and appreciation of the natural wonders.   Unfortunately, this blog doesn't have much in common with fishing.  I think I will turn off my computer now and go fishing (thanks for the idea!)

Offline AugustD

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Re: Boy It's Quiet Here Today................. :)
« Reply #122 on: April 23, 2008, 12:09:17 PM »
Pretty deep thoughts Makkin.  All I know is the worst day fishing is much better than the best day at the office.

 

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