Shengen visa nightmare for my girlfriend

[Ronnie]

My wife was almost denied a Schengen visa by the Italian consulate in San Francisco last year.  They wanted to see our itinerary and when they saw that our ship had more days in Spain than in Italy (though we flew into and sailed from Rome), they tried to send us to the Spanish consulate.  When I pointed out that we were spending three nights in Rome prior to boarding the ship, they relented.  So it would appear they focus more on the days in each country.  As Roy Kirk learned, it's easy to show them what they want to see in the way of reservations then change it after getting the visa.

IMHO it's a poorly devised system but once the national identity of each country is finally obliterated by the EU, it won't be an issue. I always thought Schengen was intended to be a transitional half-step leading to ultimate loss of sovereignty.

[Shadow]

IMHO it's a poorly devised system but once the national identity of each country is finally obliterated by the EU, it won't be an issue. I always thought Schengen was intended to be a transitional half-step leading to ultimate loss of sovereignty.

that is going to take a long long time...as none of the participating countries are keen to lose their national identity.
Schengen is intended to create easier traffic of goods and workers, and to save the participating countries in jobs for customs officers.
It was never intended to create loss of sovereignty. A good example is the participation of countries in Schengen that do not participate in the EU, and there for will not lose their sovereignty even if the EU countries do in the long run.

[msmoby_ru]

My wife was almost denied a Schengen visa by the Italian Consulate in San Francisco last year.  They wanted to see our Itinerary and when they saw that our ship had more days in Spain than in Italy (though we flew into and it sailed from Rome), They tried to send us to the Spanish Consulate.  When I pointed out that we were spending three nights in Rome prior to boarding the ship, they relented.  So it would appear they focus more on the days in each country.  As Roy Kirk learned, it's easy to show them what they want to see in the way of reservations then change it after getting the visa.

IMHO it's a poorly devised system but once the national identity of each country is finally obliterated by the EU, it won't be an issue.

the UK and Ireland ( because of the UK's stance)  won't join this scheme ... As Roykirk found out,  it's got it's more relaxed members ( Greece) and it's "sticklers" for correctness .. that's why I don't see the EU eroding national identities too fast.. It can't be like the US - there's too many national languages

Here's an irony for you - much of the EU is run from Brussels, in a country ( Belgium) that ran without a government for a long time, and many want it to split up !!

[Wolf]

   The problem with the Shengen is that depends on the country, some are morelax anothers are tougher.  I have heard that coming to Spain from Ukrain is a nightmare  so you must use another easier country to get a visa because they usually deny the visas from young women. From my point of wiew I am not against Shengen treaty it has erased a lot of paperwork in the borders but it is a big problem for the people who comes from outside the Shengen or the EU borders.

[Ronnie]

The wheels of the EU began turning 55 years ago.  When something so unthinkable as one European government and one sovereign state for Europe is the goal of certain power centers, they know it's necessary to move methodically and gradually toward that end, until one day the citizens, already speaking one language, carrying one passport, saluting one flag and exchanging one currency will finally acquiesce to the fait accompli - not that their advice and consent was ever sought or expected in the first place.

[msmoby_ru]

The wheels of the EU began turning 55 years ago.  When something so unthinkable as one European government and one sovereign state for Europe is the goal of certain power centers, they know it's necessary to move methodically and gradually toward that end, until one day the citizens, already speaking one language, carrying one passport, saluting one flag and exchanging one currency will finally acquiesce to the fait accompli - not that their advice and consent was ever sought or expected in the first place.

)

Sorry Ronnie, quite simply WRONG, WRONG, WRONG

1/ What common language will your future Europe use? French, German, ENGLISH, Esperanto? France will NEVER agree to English, and Germany the same.. why should they?

2/ When you have the French President telling the Irish they must vote, again, until they get the "right" answer...

I think your vision of the EU is something even the most rabied supporter of integration would "laugh" at - Every country has it's own agenda...

ONE good thing that has come from the EU - no wars between France and Germany for 63 years... that's GOT to be a record !

[Shadow]

The wheels of the EU began turning 55 years ago.  When something so unthinkable as one European government and one sovereign state for Europe is the goal of certain power centers, they know it's necessary to move methodically and gradually toward that end, until one day the citizens, already speaking one language, carrying one passport, saluting one flag and exchanging one currency will finally acquiesce to the fait accompli - not that their advice and consent was ever sought or expected in the first place.

The time they will speak one language is far, very far, away. The time the Europeans will salute the European flag is far, very far, away.
The one passport they have, although in separate covers. The one currency is emerging, although not all countries are part of it.
But to create a 'United States of Europe' is not in the near future. One of the reasons is that there are too many different nationalities and languages involved.
When a simple treaty to make a common law base gets delayed and leads to heavy protests among many of the member states, do you really expect states to unite in a short time ?

[Ronnie]

The time they will speak one language is far, very far, away. The time the Europeans will salute the European flag is far, very far, away.
The one passport they have, although in separate covers. The one currency is emerging, although not all countries are part of it.
But to create a 'United States of Europe' is not in the near future. One of the reasons is that there are too many different nationalities and languages involved.
When a simple treaty to make a common law base gets delayed and leads to heavy protests among many of the member states, do you really expect states to unite in a short time ?

Is 50 years in the future far, far way?  It will be done long before that IMO.  The open borders and free flow of immigration will untimately lead to everyone speaking English as their main language and a slow eroding of nationalities. Your grandchildren will likely think of themselves as simply European. The legacy language of their grandparents and great grandparents will become as Gaelic has become in Ireland....spoken by most or many but not any longer in the mainstream as their first language.

Protests?  It just means they tried to cram too much too fast down your throats, thinking you wouldn't notice or mind.  They will be back with a piecemeal approach and there will be nary a whisper of debate.

I'm not speaking as someone who has lived his whole life in Europe, because if I had, I'd probably share your view Shadow...that no such thing will happen any time soon.  You have, however, acknowledge that which has happened and it is a great change from the way Europe was.  If you believe Europe is better today than it was, then we must agree to disagree.  Flavors are best when they are distinct and pure as are colors on a palette.  Mixing them into one produces a bland and uninteresting result.

I am speaking as an American observer who lived in Europe 40 years ago and now pops in every so often and is struck by the changes more than I would had I stayed.  I would rather America could have been more like Europe in it's variety of cultures. But instead it seems Europe is moving to become more like America.

I think that I'm realizing more as time goes by that there is an ultimate master plan for a single world government that began in the 1920's and is gaining more momentum every year and your Queen Beatrix, our David Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, Jimmy Carter, the Clintons, the Bushes and other European blue bloods who believe that ruling is their birthright are the orchestrators.

[Ronnie]

Moby,
You and Shadow demonstrate to me that I'm right.  As long as you buy into the myth that things can never happen you are comforted and are willing to ignore the very things that indeed have happened or accept them as good. 

Of course the French will accept speaking English.  Who would have believed a Sarkozy could ever have been elected president?  Future generations will find it easier to speak English than French.  It will be Au revoir "c'est la vie": and hello, "whatever."

Germans? Heck, they already speak better Englisch than I do. 

No wars between France and Germany because of the EU?  You are reading the EU talking points, I'm afraid. Wars were historically more frequent between France and England but that ended long before the EU. 

Never say "never," my friend.   Some in Europe are waking up and asking themselves, "where are we going.. and, why are we in this handbasket?" 

It's happening in America too but that has nothing at all to do with Schengen visas, does it? 

[Shadow]

What has happened to Europe is a good rather than bad thing, and if they would really manage to make a more centralized government, I would applaud it. I am not closing my eyes, and for a small country like Holland, the development is beneficial.

But if such a Union after 50 years has no support to create a common ground law between the members, I do not see our Queen or her son resigning from office.
We are not the United Stated where only immigrants ruled, and territories were taken from 3 main countries...
We are not a Russian Federation that united by historic struggles and fights..

Europe is the Old World, from where most of the current civilization originated. To unite the countries in to one big State has last been tried 60 years ago. And the last success in this is more than 1200 years ago...

[msmoby_ru]

Moby,
You and Shadow demonstrate to me that I'm right. 

Suggest you book an appointment with a "Schrink" in Paris and Berlin ... You only demonstrate that ( like Mr Bush) some Americans haven't got a clue what is happening outside their county .. let alone state. ... :-o

As long as you buy into the myth that things can never happen you are comforted and are willing to ignore the very things that indeed have happened or accept them as good. 

Ronnie, the UK is more likey to be the 51st state of the USA..

Of course the French will accept speaking English.  Who would have believed a Sarkozy could ever have been elected president?  Future generations will find it easier to speak English than French.  It will be Au revoir "c'est la vie": and hello, "whatever."

Germans? Heck, they already speak better Englisch than I do. 

 

I don't think your "schrink" bill will be THAT big.. if they are honest, they will say you are a "hopeless case" - and suggest job working as an advisor for a US govt dept specialising in foreign affairs... 

No wars between France and Germany because of the EU?  You are reading the EU talking points, I'm afraid. Wars were historically more frequent between France and England but that ended long before the EU. 
 

Er Ronnie, Britain was last a war with France 193 years ago - nearly as long ago as it was with the US.. France and Germany ( AKA 
 Prussia had 3 more ding dongs and the people of Alsace-Lorraine kept waking up in different countries )

Never say "never," my friend.   Some in Europe are waking up and asking themselves, "where are we going.. and, why are we in this handbasket?"  

Most never went to "sleep" and know that a Union - any Union - is better than before.... but we are more likely to see some nations cede from the EU , rather than give up their language / heritage / national security policy/ currency.
 

It's happening in America too but that has nothing at all to do with Schengen visas, does it? 

Methinks you still confuse states with Nations... there are few similarities... but this is FUN

[Ronnie]

Suggest you book an appointment with a "Schrink" in Paris and Berlin ... You only demonstrate that ( like Mr Bush) some Americans haven't got a clue what is happening outside their county .. let alone state. ... :-o

What you say may true but there is nothing in my notes here that would support that.    What is also true is that most Americans haven't a clue about what is happening INSIDE their own country..or state....a malady with which it seems we are not alone afflicted.

Ronnie, the UK is more likey to be the 51st state of the USA..

Actually, by Barack Obama's count, the UK would be the 55th state as he claims he's already visited 54 of them. (See my first point above).

I don't think your "schrink" bill will be THAT big.. if they are honest, they will say you are a "hopeless case" - and suggest job working as an advisor for a US govt dept specialising in foreign affairs... 


Er Ronnie, Britain was last a war with France 193 years ago -

Er Mark, wasn't that my very point?  What role did EU play in that?

Most never went to "sleep" and know that a Union - any Union - is better than before.... but we are more likely to see some nations cede from the EU , rather than give up their language / heritage / national security policy/ currency. 

The trendline would have to reversed.  Who will head up that momumental effort?  To quote the Guardian last month, "Gordon Brown has ruled out a public vote on the treaty, saying that it does not alter the UK constitution, but opponents say a vote was promised on the EU constitution and that the Lisbon treaty is virtually identical."

Methinks you still confuse states with Nations... there are few similarities... but this is FUN

Nope, no confusion here.  Mexico, the United States and Canada are nations last I checked, and yes, we are being pushed toward integration into a North American Union.  As with Europe, it is being done in a non-public way..."harmonizing" our laws, opening our borders, etc.  Fortunately for US, many Americans are wise to scam but it will be difficult now with both our presidential candidates favoring the NAU (while claiming to know nothing about it)

[msmoby_ru]

Hi  Ronnie, I note you danced around :

1/ the language issue

2/ the fact that certain EU members would LEAVE if such things you suggest were forced on them

3/ That the founder members included Germany and France who DID fight each other a lot much more recently than Britain / France - thus making the EEC ( as it was known ) all the more relevant. But we could include Germany v Poland, or Poland v Lithuania... this list is long..

4/ it's dangerous to quote someone who is so inaccurate that he would claim the UK HAS a constitution - we don't !!! - a contrary view here:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_Kingdom[/url

Mr Brown is going to have to go to court and win, before he can sign "us" up !!



5/ The "states" I was referring to, and let's stick to that for now, as your contention re the EU's future is so wrong, were the countries of the EU.


6/ I'm not an expert on NAU / SPP

Mark

[SANDRO43]

Of course the French will accept speaking English.

VERY unlikely, I'd say, given their unequalled cultural history in the 1700s-1800s, which they go to pains to preserve and promote, language being a fundamental part thereof.

Wars were historically more frequent between France and England but that ended long before the EU.

You forget that no such thing as Germany existed until 1871:

The unification of Germany took place on January 18, 1871, when Prussian Chief Minister Otto von Bismarck managed to unify a number of independent German states into one nation, and thus create the German Empire, from which all of the states since that time bearing the name of Germany descend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unification_of_Germany

[Ronnie]

Mark,

Dance? Moi? At the dances I was a member of the band so never got a chance to learn to dance.  (Wanna hear a guitar riff instead)?

I think you're making straw man arguments on my behalf.   I referred to France and England and whether you have states or nations or just tribes, it's the same.  France and England ended their centuries of war without an EU.

It is undeniable that they are losing their unique flavors.  That is what strikes me as lamentable.  The gradual loss of popular sovereignty is also lamentable...more than lamentable - it is dangerous prospectively.

One characteristic of long-term trends is that they tend to move imperceptibly.  Watch the hands on a clock and you think not much is happening.  But go away and come back 6 and 1/2 hours later and you see a huge change.

The extent to which English is spoken worldwide...especially in Europe... is a dramatic departure from 30-40 years ago.
As I said, you have be away and come back later to see the change.

Mark, you keep talking about things being forced by rulers.  Yes, the rulers would like to, and do try to, force the issue.  They want the changes to happen faster, but they'll take slower if that's the only way to sneak past the true sovereigns.

If you think the EU is responsible for a lack of wars between European nations, then I suggest that is giving the EU just the ammunition it needs to continue it's course toward total integration.  How can you say on the one hand, that it's been good so far, but on the other express firm doubt that the European public will permit more of the same?

Just as the overwhelming majority of violence occurs between two people who know each other very well...civil wars and revolution have been most frequent throughout history.  Further, I would argue, that it is the natural tendency of any government to become more tyrannical as its self-perceived power, and lethargy on the part of the citizenry, grow.     

And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that the people preserve the spirit of resistance?  The remedy is to set them [the rulers] right as to the facts....  The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.  It is its natural manure.

—Thomas Jefferson

[msmoby_ru]

Mark,

Dance? Moi? At the dances I was a member of the band so never got a chance to learn to dance.  (Wanna hear a guitar riff instead)?

Fantastique, tous parles  français ? Moi aussi ! .. Et russe ? !! What ya gonna play for us ?

I think your making straw man arguments on my behalf. I never mentioned Germany, you did.

Ha ! I know a guitar playing, non dancing man can handle a bit of Anglo - Irish humour )))  France and Germany were the axis of the EEC, and they will NEVER EVER .. allow English to be THE language of the EU .. for a start this would mean sacking 000's of high paid translators in 27, or more official EU languages !!

  You've used the terms, states, nations and now countries.  I don't care what you call them, call them cultures if you like. 

Ah, our wonderful language doesn't travel well acros the pond ... When I refer to a state I mean a part of a federal republic.. a country or nation is what the EU is made up od and I RESIST the word state that they keep using !!

But it is undeniable that they are losing their unique flavors.  That is what strikes me as lamentable.  The gradual loss of popular sovereignty is also lamentable...more than lamentable it is dangerous.

This is why the British will not, as island race cede any more sovereignty to the EU - they won't give up the Pound, even though it is looking exposed  at the moment.. 

Personally I think we should have joined the Euro, ( the EU guys are our biggest market ) but our economy is out of synce with theirs

The thing about long-term trends is that they tend to move imperceptibly.  Watch the hands on a clock and you think not much is happening.  But go away and come back 6 and 1/2 hours later and you see a huge change.

The extent to which English is spoken worldwide...especially in Europe... is a dramatic departure from 30-40 years ago.
As I said, you have be away and come back later to see the change.

Ronnie, you just don't get it.. YES, English is the language of commerce, but the French, Germans, Spanish and new EU nations that have had Russian forced on them, will NOT be told - again - what language to use.. other than their own It might make sense.. but this is the EU - who try to keep a country's "flavour" culture - but allow freedom of movement for EU citizens..Any way .. California must nearly have 50% of its population speaking Spanish by now.. so may be Spanish will be the US language

Mark, you keep talking about things being forced by rulers.  Yes, the rulers would like to, and do try to, force the issue.  They want the changes to happen faster, but they'll take slower if that's the only way to sneak past the true sovereigns.

Mate, these  "faceless burocrats" are accountable and we pay their salaries..  and can vote 'em out .. unlike the Bush era, it is hard to muzzle the press from a good scandal !

If you think the EU is responsible for a lack of wars between European nations, then I suggest that is giving the EU just the ammunition it needs to continue it's course toward total integration.  How can you say on the one hand, that it's been good so far, but on the other express firm doubt that the European public will permit more of the same?

That's EASY.. I'm in favour of free trade, open borders, free movement of people - but not an eroding of an individual nations right to have it's own currency and foreign policy and language. I reckon the integration has gone far enogh .. and THAT is why some nations are questioning the EU constitution.

Just as the overwhelming majority of violence occurs between two people who know each other very well...civil wars and revolution have been most frequent throughout history.  Further, I would argue, that it is the natural tendency of any government to become more tyrannical as its self-perceived power, and lethargy on the part of the citizenry, grow. 

We can get rid of elected dictators - every five years or less  - we have a vote in the EU parliament ! - We are bearing in mind this chap's Jefferson's words !!

And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that the people preserve the spirit of resistance?  The remedy is to set them [the rulers] right as to the facts....  The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.  It is its natural manure.

—Thomas Jefferson