How To Select the Right One?

[I/O]

msmoby-ru: I tried to get a bit through on much the same line as you when I first came in but I wasted my breath. I can see two sides to the argument, but one thing is clear to me, you will get more rejections from women if you mention or even hint at a VM routine. Doesn't mean it isn't doable but........................anyway, I'm getting sidetracked again, learn from my experience, you're wasting your time trying to sell the VO idea here. Each person is different as is each forum. You know, you've gotta go to the FSU and "Date" all these women before you can know what you like...........always kinda struck me as a bit of a crock really.

I/O

[GreginGa]

Let me at least clarify what I was trying to say. It would take a certifiable idiot to take 10 or 12 days from work,spend several thousand dollars and just hope that the person you're going to see just happens to be the right one. Thats fairy tale land and yes I know the VO approach does work some of the time,but why risk it? Also I cant think of one good reason to volunteer and tell the girl that you came here to visit another woman as well. So so many times the girl is the one that makes the decision to never go on the second date because she has other options and she's willing to work the best angle until she gets who she wants.

I met a guy at Obriens Pub in Kiev that was rather heart broken or so he thought. He had been writing to this girl for some weeks and got on a plane. She tells him after he arrives that she's been thinking and Ohio is just not quite warm enough for her to ever consider moving to. She liked California or Florida. The poor bastard didnt know what to do. I casually pointed out that he was in a city filled with tens of thousands of single girls that wouldnt mind living in Ohio if they thought he was their sudba. The guy was actually thinking of changing his flight and going home early. Too much at stake to visit or tie yourself to just one girl.

[viking]

Here is my two cents on this. You ALWAYS need a back up plan.

If you have been in communication with a woman and plan a VO trip, at the very least find one/two RELIABLE agencies in this city, review their web site, select a few ladies that you might want to meet. You can tell your gal the truth, that you have planned to only visit her, but if things go south (and many times they do) you will have the flexibility of visiting these agencies, telling them your are visiting their city and would like to meet some of the ladies you had already pre selected. They will tell you if they are available for a meeting and set it up for you.

And trust me, these agencies know the drill. They know some guy just did not hop on a plane, spend 20 hours traveling, spend a few grand, to ""just"" plop himself in their office at the spur of the moment. They will know that something did not work out for you and that is why you are there. If they are really a reliable agency, tell them the truth and go from there.

Better than sitting on your butt wondering what to do next.

[KenC]

I think it is all a matter of depth.  As long as you are not in too deeply than the first meeting is more like speed dating.  
If you take the approach that your "real" relationship doesn't begin until you are face to face, then no one should be offended by you meeting others.  Everyone wants to be "special" but I submit that "special" begins at the face to face meeting and not before.

When I went to meet the Mrs., we had had almost two months of phone conversations prior to it.  Even though we knew each other quite well, I did not broach any romantic subjects with her and I certainly never mentioned marriage.  On the surface, I was going to Russia to meet a woman I had become friends with via our phone calls.  And such, as there was no romantic involvement, I saw no harm in meeting other women while in Russia.  Quite frankly, she too assumed I would meet others.  

Even after our initial meeting (where all sorts of sparks flew), I still continued with the plan to meet other women.  My thought process was that even though I had begun a romantic relationship with Lena, it was far too early for any commitments.  Having an exclusive relationship after one date is nuts to me.  Having an exclusive relationship with someone you never met is even crazier in my book.
I think it is all how you view your actions.  There is nothing wrong with playing the field in order to find the right woman with which to build a relationship,  But it is wrong to string along a number of women too far down the trail to matrimony.
KenC

[Gator]

Having an exclusive relationship after one date is nuts to me.  Having an exclusive relationship with someone you never met is even crazier in my book.

Agree with your second sentence, yet I do not see WOVO as an exclusive relationship.  It is more about attempting in good faith to create an exclusive relationship, i. e. hoping for love.

There is nothing wrong with playing the field in order to find the right woman with which to build a relationship,  But it is wrong to string along a number of women too far down the trail to matrimony.

Agree with the second part.  With regard to the first part, after intimacy I never dated women concurrently.  I either stayed or moved on with no intentions of returning.


WOVO vs. WMVM. Eventually a man will only visit one, whether it is his first trip, second or tenth.  There are stark pros and cons for both approaches, much like whether to consider a woman who has children or no children.  To each his own.

Personally, I went WMVM, then went WOVO (with the same ONE) for 3+ years.  Then repeated the process a couple of times only to end up with the same ONE.  Remarkably, she would have been the ONE if I had initially went WOVO in 2002.  At my stage of life then  (rebound from 25-year marriage) and considering my dual objectives (travel adventure and romance), WOVO was not best for me.

[KenC]

Having an exclusive relationship after one date is nuts to me.  Having an exclusive relationship with someone you never met is even crazier in my book
Agree with your second sentence, yet I do not see WOVO as an exclusive relationship.  It is more about attempting in good faith to create an exclusive relationship, i. e. hoping for love.

You confuse me here, Gator.  If going to visit one woman is not an exclusive arrangement, what is it?  It certainly not "nonexclusive" if visiting others is not allowed.  I think we men put the cart squarely ahead of the horse in this process.  What is so wrong with going to Russia to meet some women and then see what shakes out from the meetings?

There is nothing wrong with playing the field in order to find the right woman with which to build a relationship,  But it is wrong to string along a number of women too far down the trail to matrimony.
Agree with the second part.  With regard to the first part, after intimacy I never dated women concurrently.  I either stayed or moved on with no intentions of returning.

In my scenario "intimacy" would not be a logical goal on the first trip.  It would be more of a "meet and greet" mission before eliminating too many women.  Again. I have always promoted men use agencies as a way to be introduced to a number of women.  What the man and woman do after meeting is what really counts.

WOVO vs. WMVM. Eventually a man will only visit one, whether it is his first trip, second or tenth.  There are stark pros and cons for both approaches, much like whether to consider a woman who has children or no children.  To each his own.

My point here is that men pare their list down too far  and get in too deep before going on their first trip.  I understand that it will eventually boil down to one woman, but why even try to decide before meeting?  I also understand that I am promoting an additional trip here because with my suggestion, the man would not really get serious until maybe the second trip.  But isn't it better to make your selections in person?  Rather than from photos on the Internet and a few emails (which she may or may not have written)?  Other than Lena, I sent an introductory letter to a group of women and basically asked if they were intrested in meeting me while I was in their city.  Most said, yes.
KenC

[Gator]

You confuse me here, Gator.  If going to visit one woman is not an exclusive arrangement, what is it?  It certainly not "nonexclusive" if visiting others is not allowed.  I think we men put the cart squarely ahead of the horse in this process.  What is so wrong with going to Russia to meet some women and then see what shakes out from the meetings?

Agree, WOVO is an exclusive arrangement; it is not an exclusive relationship as you stated earlier.  It is better defined as a temporary exclusive arrangement. 

In my scenario "intimacy" would not be a logical goal on the first trip.  It would be more of a "meet and greet" mission before eliminating too many women.  Again. I have always promoted men use agencies as a way to be introduced to a number of women.  What the man and woman do after meeting is what really counts.

All of us are different.  I disliked the quick meet and greet, and instead preferred to spend at least a day with a woman.  This meant that I met fewer women, yet I already knew much about them from telephone calls and letters before the trip, more than I would know from a quick meeting.

Agree that intimacy should not be a "goal" unless one is a sex tourist.  If a man likes a RW and she likes him and the circumstances are appropriate and no one is misleading the other, why not?  Lots of if's.

My point here is that men pare their list down too far  and get in too deep before going on their first trip.  I understand that it will eventually boil down to one woman, but why even try to decide before meeting?  I also understand that I am promoting an additional trip here because with my suggestion, the man would not really get serious until maybe the second trip.  But isn't it better to make your selections in person?  Rather than from photos on the Internet and a few emails (which she may or may not have written)?

Ken, you define your trip to meet Lena as not a WOVO.  Perhaps it was WMVM in your mind, yet it was 90% WOVO and 10% WMVM based on the effort before your trip and based on what you did when in Tver.  Your effort with other women was frivolous, just enough to ground truth your impressions that Lena is indeed a very, very special woman who seemed perfect for you.  Or maybe you just needed to back off and catch your breath.  Whatever, you were a 90% WOVO in my opinion. 

Similarly, before I made my initial month-long WMVM trip with 8 telephone numbers in my pocket, a handicapper reading my mind would have placed 3-2 odds on the Muscovite who married me six years later.  Even with those odds, it was WMVM because of the novelty of the RW concept, my rebound mentality, and my desire to see the Big Three cities and the Crimea.

[KenC]

Gator,
I am not saying that we don't have our favorites as I did with Lena and you did with your Moscow lady.  But my first trip was 100% VM because I did visit many just as you did.  The fact that you and I did meet other women changed the whole complexion of the meetings of our respective wives IMO.  And I would dare say that it was a good thing too.  I like the natural progression of a relationship where each level is to be enjoyed and explored to it's fullest.  Of course some of us move to the next level long before six years!
KenC

[Jumper]

ahh another WMVM vs WOVO debate,its due i guess,
,gotta love it!

one thing that BOTH camps need to accept.not everyone thinks the same! and thats OK!
try to simply recognize that dating views, ,and what is acceptable to one person , may not be to another, and vice versa ?

 ms_moby said

so let's discuss the "solid backup plan" - assumptions - you have the contact details for a dating agency in the area - you can call them if all else fails - GREAT... and what exactly do you expect to find at short notice, and she'll be thinking WHY are you here, who did you REALLY come to see.

not picking on you ms moby, it was just a good quote to illustrate something..i think is often overlooked,, or when it sbrought up put some weird stigma is put on it..

i'm sorry to burst the bubble here, but many people simply  wont care,
they wont care why you are there , or who you originally came to see.
 The often portrayed thought by the WOVO crowd,that a person accepting of this or , with this mindwset ,is any less of a person morally is absolutely ridiculas.
because its based on circumstances of meeting and nothing else.
 if I  met an interesting woman , somewhere,, a newstand, a cafe ,, what have you.
I never CARED why she was there, or who she met yesterday , or will met tomorow.
and its  a safe bet if she found me even slightly interesting or amusing,
that she really did NOT care why i happened to be there at that moment,
the fact we met and hit it off, and would go on from there , to whatever end, would be the focus.
The same could be said for American dating places like great expectation or "its just lunch" . Neither party in these scenerios  "cares" wht the other part met at yesterdays lunch or tomorows.
umm just exactly like meeting someone randomly as life happens ,and is quite natural

listen sorry for the upcoming long rant,,LOL!
 but i really tire of the continued charaterization  of men or women who accept dating as dating, and introductions as simply introductions, as something odd.
The idea of a woman,or a man , signing up with any dating agency locally or internationally is to be introduced to  other people.(duh)
To expand the number of people you meet in your life.
thats its very foundation.
If you meet them at the buss stop , or the supermarket,, you wont care why they are there..just glad fo rthe chance encounter that may bring happines t oboth yoiur lives..
but if you meet them thru email or an agency ,,suddenly you do care the exact circumstances of why you might have met or run into each other ?

if either a RW or a WM meets many ,in life thru randome circumstance,
 or thru direct intent,
 its different than intentionally writing many and weeding down who to actually meet?
how bizarre that outlook is. seriously.

I completely understand the WOVO outlook. and i agree for certain individuals
its the only way.
what i dont understand is the non-acceptence or view that anything *else* is odd or less "ethical " in some fashion.

Lets say I met a girl walking down the street..near the river and park.
she had a nice smile.I strike up a poor russian /english conversation.
how is why i am on that street relevent to anything?
it certainly isnt relevent , why she is there?

its kind of romantic two strangers meeting and hitting it off?

if i was a local guy it certainly wouldnt be relevent,
why i was in the park or street?
but if i came to visit many..(but none had worked out so far)  it is?

or perhaps its only relevent if she is also signed up with an agency?
(then its a meat market right? right?)

how about if i dint know she was signed up at any agency  the moment we met,
and she had no idea just how many agencies had stolen her profile?

hmm, what "if" she was on her way to visit a WM that had been writing to her?
(WOVO style)and so followed thru with her meeting , as she should..
but despite the long correspondence they dint "click",
 what then?

There are plenty of other realities,
Some people are accepting of meeting more than one person..
it might be because they just recognize the fact,
that any  man or woman well meet quite a few people everyday in normal life circumstances.

its romantic to fly thousands of miles to see the *one and only*..
to investigate and find out about the woman first,,
and shes "worth it" right Nastya ?

but thats not how most people meet in regular life.
they simply meet.randomly!
 thru friends, work, social setting like cafe , church ,,wherever..
they dont know if each other is "worth it"
(the effort to begin a relationship and fly thousands of miles)
Thier romance begins then.
My wife was of like mind..
she thought just as highly of a man that dint need to have the *safety net* of
already knowing she was *worth it* as one that did.
That was able to confidentlly meet people anywhere.
She is an extreemly confident independent person,, and certainly planned on meeting as many WM ,or local men ,, as it took to meet the exact right one for her.Thats how most people marry, and live thier lives?

This view that its somehow more *noble* to first weed out who is worthy of your time thru email or phone calls..is strange.
Dont get me wrong!!  i think it's practical,, and a good way..!!
and for some people the absolute only way..(understandable)
but lets not overlook that it IS practical and pragmatic,it is deliberate,,
 and not nearly as *romantic* as its often portrayed.

When single, i would chat up(or attempt to lol)
 any interesting woman in any city or airport or cafe,,anywhere,,anytime
why not? how else will you find out if shes interesting, interested,and may end up being your wife.(if you both click,and your characters,life views align)
Wether  i was in Chicago, LA, Prague , Athens or Dnepropetrovsk isn't going to make a difference.
but somehow meeting someone that way, is viewed as less romatic or ethical..
 than being pragmatic,deliberate and intially screening out who i will, or will not, meet in life or a particular city or region of the world?

If my original date flops locally, and i meet a girl on the way home..
wonderful right?
If my flight is delayed in frankfort, and i meet this great girl from germany but going to university in Florida ....
again ..wonderful?

how is that much different than a guy with a WOVO doesnt work out,, yet he meets  a woman and they hit it off?
(wether she was signed up with an agency seems irrelevent)

if his simferopol flight was canceled, and he meets a local airline worker..
its circumstance and that makes it  romatic and great..
 but if his WOVO crashes and burns and he meets a girl thru the local agency number he kept in his pocket,., thats different..and the woman is always portrayed here
that she  will "undoubtably" question his motives and character?

Sorry that is not the case for everyone.
In fact the tables where completely in reverse when i met my wife.
it happens that there are other scenerios,, the WOVO crowd often  painting the *poor agency RW* into some corner, isnt always reality .
  In this  case she was on the way to meet a WOVO man, she had written long term with..it did not work out.
*We* had not corresponded, and had simply just *met*.
We did not date then.I followed up later, and we started to date ,,and on from there...

both camps should have some real understanding for the other,
 as the situations are not so *cut and dried* in human relations.

both ways have both negatives and positives!!
The main thing is that the type of person  comfortable in either method,
  will naturally gravitate to a person who is like minded.A good thing?

[Jumper]

to the original poster and topic-

How do I choose the right one? What do I look for? Can I filter them even before I meet with them?

I dont want this to sound weird,
  if you date RW , that are confident and attractive (as most are that you will meet) ,
they will be the ones ultimately doing any *choosing*  


anyway - you are not picking out a puppy..lol
 (dang where is my old avatar when i need it?)
Sorry I know what you meant,
but I wanted  to answer:
"well be sure and check her nose to be sure its wet and healthy,her ears for infections,
and  make sure she has her  shots,is from a good bloodline and pedigree"


rest assured, if a typical RW is seriuos in this endeavor,(for whatever motivation)
, it is YOU that will be scrutinized top to bottom.. and choosen..

Also, if you are asking on a forum *what to look for*?

my advice is to know exactly and very sprcifically what you are looking for ,
before you take the trip.

They are not from mars.
You should be able to read women well enough to understand:
1. her interest level in you (and yours in her)
2. her character personality ethics,and all the things you would quite normally be "looking' for?

you would look for the same things there, that you would with any woman anywhere
that  you were interested in a romantic relationship  with?

Then if you do *click*, let it develope as naturally as a long distance relationship will allow.

and yes 5K is likely a decent  average trip price, and plan on making enough trips  to know your *intended* very very well. however many that takes for you.
It isnt the time or place for short cuts.


yes you can *filter*, before you met them,
 but if you have ten that you "want" to meet,
isnt that what you already did?

if not, then if going on a visit many trip line about more than that!
 if you havnt already pre screened or arranged these ten you are interested in.
even pre arrnged meetings many  may not meet you for any number of reasons, or you may not click in the first 15 seconds with most of them , or them you.
Just how it is.


IMHO- to filter-  the best way is by phone.
Hopefully you have good russian or she has good english as this is a big help initially.
but use a US based translater third party line, if needed.
(they are readily availble and often may be  money very very well spent?)
because in real time ,, her exact words,, tone of voice, inflection, all can speak volumes you may not get out of emails. wether you can or not, the translatior can tell if shes a bit crude or refined for example just in style of speach. and you shouyld b eable to hear if she is excited to take your call.. or not so.
wether she is a shy person,,or more outgoing,.,things you need to match yourself to?
these are often not as readily apparent in email.
and it lets her  know a lot more about you as well.
(just as important of point)
 


Good luck!

[msmoby_ru]

" In dealing with about 2,000 AM over the years, my experience has been that almost 85% of the first meetings don't turn into second meetings, regardless of how long they had been writing to each other".


A person who disregards these stats is either incredibly naive or  an unbelievable optimist, both to his own peril.

Dear Ambach123

I've never met JB, but ( I believe) he knows the FSU well and has/does earn a crust aiding WM to find FSU women ...

If his input is involved with arranging the meets he quotes from, I'd be seriously worried his match-making capabilities !


I rather think one is naive or optimistic to turn up in an FSU country to indulge in a spot of speed dating... ..More so now than in KenC's time.

You started this thread, asking for advice, and you have had some...IMHO if you come to Kiev thinking the way you do now, you will learn a lot ..

[KenC]

Dear Ambach123

I've never met JB, but ( I believe) he knows the FSU well and has/does earn a crust aiding WM to find FSU women ...

If his input is involved with arranging the meets he quotes from, I'd be seriously worried his match-making capabilities !


I rather think one is naive or optimistic to turn up in an FSU country to indulge in a spot of speed dating... ..More so now than in KenC's time.

You started this thread, asking for advice, and you have had some...IMHO if you come to Kiev thinking the way you do now, you will learn a lot ..

Why is that moby?  Agencies today will not introduce you to 2 or 3 women a day for tea/coffee?  Is it now mandatory that you have a full blown relationship in order to meet?  Agree or disagree as is your opinion, but do not dismiss mine without reason.

I find the endless debate between WOVO and WMVM hilarious.  We ALL have to eliminate potential relationships down to just one eventually.  It is all a matter of timing as to when you get to "the one."  I am suggesting that the final "eliminations" do not come before meeting face to face as you will have much better criteria to make such decisions at that point.
KenC
(BTW Jack Bragg should never be confused with jb as they are two very different people)

[Jumper]

LOL!  "very" different is an understatement of the week KenC
 


I would agree with ms_moby ,in this particular scenerio because  kiev might be slightly different grounds than other places.Simply because the pro dating agency theme has been rooted there long enough to be routine almost.The shear numbers of european businesman going there for fun or what have you,as well as the many Americans,  i think has tainted many of the local agencies.i mean just how many can be in one city?there arnt that many, and the agencies learn quickly what makes money. and how to do it effienciently.
i'm not saying you cant meet sincere women thru a kiev based agancy.
but i would say the percentage of "noise" you'd have to shuffle thru on average would be increased.

like you said ..it comes down to "when" the elimination process begins for both sides?
In most WOVO scenerios, typically the net is cast very wide, simply
by email,,not any specific location in mind.. and the elimination process done beforehand.

hey one way may have higher results than another?
we have never really  seen any evidence of that either direction?

i just have issue when one method or another is held up as more romantic or ethical..
as thats highly subjective,when most people in the world meet much more randomly
in life anyway.

[msmoby_ru]

msmoby-ru: I tried to get a bit through on much the same line as you when I first came in but I wasted my breath. I can see two sides to the argument, but one thing is clear to me, you will get more rejections from women if you mention or even hint at a VM routine. Doesn't mean it isn't doable but........................anyway, I'm getting sidetracked again, learn from my experience, you're wasting your time trying to sell the VO idea here. Each person is different as is each forum. You know, you've gotta go to the FSU and "Date" all these women before you can know what you like...........always kinda struck me as a bit of a crock really.

I/O

Hi I/O

Thanks for the advice.. 

It is interesting to note that the most vociferous WMVM advocates are still looking themselves, whilst commenting on the success (or not) of other member's marriages - is that necessary to support a viewpoint, I wonder?!!

[Gator]

It is interesting to note that the most vociferous WMVM advocates are still looking themselves, whilst commenting on the success (or not) of other member's marriages - is that necessary to support a viewpoint, I wonder?!!

At first glance it seems that KenC and I have the most posts advocating WMVM.  Still looking?  We have no need being that we are happily married.  MSMoby, what am I missing?

[GreginGa]

The thing about Kiev these days is the fact that girls are there from all over Ukraine,Moldova and Belarussia because of the pay scale. You can absolutely find any kind of girl you're looking for if you have the time,money and wisdom to search. Sure things are different now rather than when Ken was there back when dinosaurs roamed the banks of the Dnyper and I mean that in a good way Ken. The old game of boy meets girls remains the same. I've always been a big advocate of if you cant talk to the girl then why waste your time. I know one popular Kiev based agency that has had the same girls listed for years and years. It also helps if one gets lucky. I also agree with AJ in the sense that you should start trying to meet the right one when you get seated on the plane, at the cafe, in the market and on the street. I certainly dont think there is an exact science,but common sense should be a factor.

[GreginGa]

At first glance it seems that KenC and I have the most posts advocating WMVM.  Still looking?  We have no need being that we are happily married.  MSMoby, what am I missing?

  Lump me in with both of you guys as far as WMVM is concerned. I stopped looking sometime back as well. LOL

[msmoby_ru]

Why is that moby?  Agencies today will not introduce you to 2 or 3 women a day for tea/coffee?  Is it now mandatory that you have a full blown relationship in order to meet?  Agree or disagree as is your opinion, but do not dismiss mine without reason.

Ken, I am well aware of your story of how you met, and it was 10 years ago.. things have moved on and you do not visit Kiev, do you?  .. Ambach 123 is asking about Kiev, not Russia.


I rather think you are taking my differing with your advice too personally.. I respect that you've been a member here a long time, and are STILL successfully married, ( far more important ) but that doesn't mean your advice NOW is current or correct, IMHO - particularly in the case of Kiev.[/quote]

I find the endless debate between WOVO and WMVM hilarious.  We ALL have to eliminate potential relationships down to just one eventually.  It is all a matter of timing as to when you get to "the one." 

Agreed, but HOW we eliminate is being debated here, and whilst timing comes into it, research, planning, instinct and honesty (within and without) about yourself and one's needs can save a lot of time, money and heartache.

I am suggesting that the final "eliminations" do not come before meeting face to face as you will have much better criteria to make such decisions at that point.
KenC

Come on, Ken .. are you suggesting WOVO means we're committing before a meeting?!!
I agree with Gator.. it's a temporary agreement, pending the meeting.

(BTW Jack Bragg should never be confused with jb as they are two very different people)
[/quote]

 

I wasn't aware that there was the possibility of confusion - esp. as I was quoting Jack Bragg.. but thanks for pointing it out .. !

[msmoby_ru]

At first glance it seems that KenC and I have the most posts advocating WMVM.  Still looking?  We have no need being that we are happily married.  MSMoby, what am I missing?

perhaps reading your very own posts?

WOVO vs. WMVM. Eventually a man will only visit one, whether it is his first trip, second or tenth.  There are stark pros and cons for both approaches, much like whether to consider a woman who has children or no children.  To each his own.

Personally, I went WMVM, then went WOVO (with the same ONE) for 3+ years.  Then repeated the process a couple of times only to end up with the same ONE.  Remarkably, she would have been the ONE if I had initially went WOVO in 2002.

you go on to point out that you weren't really ready to settle down, and that's why WOVO wasn't for you...

  At my stage of life then  (rebound from 25-year marriage) and considering my dual objectives (travel adventure and romance), WOVO was not best for me

Finally you told us all that on meeting your wife, by chance - at a railway stn, that SHE would have blown you out if she'd be on a WMVM schedule... No?

See why I don't count you as a WMVM advocate, now ?!)

[Gator]

you go on to point out that you weren't really ready to settle down, and that's why WOVO wasn't for you...

Among two other reasons: 

-  wanting a travel experience (see the sights of different cities)

-  the novelty of the RW MOB scene (I needed to check it out before getting my hopes up).

Finally you told us all that on meeting your wife, by chance - at a railway stn, that SHE would have blown you out if she'd be on a WMVM schedule... No?

No.  That was GreginGA with whom I had to pleasure of sharing an evening at a Cuban restaurant in Tampa.  Stunning wife.  And Greg just advocated WMVM above.

Yes, the amount of verbiage is unwieldy and one can get confused.

By the Way.  What's Different About Kiev?

I have met women in Kiev and other Ukrainian cities in 2002 and 2005.

I have met women in Moscow and other Russian cities in 2002 and 2005. 

Frankly, I did not see a difference other than Muscovites were a little more demanding and there were more approachable, stunning single women in the Big Three Cities.  However, Kiev did not impress me as lending to a different approach.

Caveat 1:  I have been criticized by experienced RWD men for walking around Ukraine and Russia and not noticing a bounty of prostitutes.

Caveat 2:  I am an older gentleman.

[KenC]

Ken, I am well aware of your story of how you met, and it was 10 years ago.. things have moved on and you do not visit Kiev, do you?  .. Ambach 123 is asking about Kiev, not Russia.


I rather think you are taking my differing with your advice too personally.. I respect that you've been a member here a long time, and are STILL successfully married, ( far more important ) but that doesn't mean your advice NOW is current or correct, IMHO - particularly in the case of Kiev.

Agreed, but HOW we eliminate is being debated here, and whilst timing comes into it, research, planning, instinct and honesty (within and without) about yourself and one's needs can save a lot of time, money and heartache.

Come on, Ken .. are you suggesting WOVO means we're committing before a meeting?!!
I agree with Gator.. it's a temporary agreement, pending the meeting.

(BTW Jack Bragg should never be confused with jb as they are two very different people)


 

I wasn't aware that there was the possibility of confusion - esp. as I was quoting Jack Bragg.. but thanks for pointing it out .. !

Moby,
It all still boils down to "boy meets girl" and that hasn't changed since the beginning of time.  What *is* important is what you do from that point forward, not how you met.  Do you suggest that Kiev is different from the rest of the world?   WOVO *is* a commitment to meet only one woman  thereby (at least theoretically) making the trip exclusive to that one woman.  You may be saying, "I am only coming to visit you" but what you really mean is that she will be the only one you visit if she meets all your expectations.  Even though pulling off a VM is less comfortable for the ladies, it is more honest IMO.  It is like "I will come meet you and we will see what happens from there."

I didn't mean to insult you regarding jb/Jack Bragg.  You are new here and I wanted to clarify.
KenC

[GreginGa]

Moby I think you're confusing myself and Gator. I'm the one that met my wife in the railway station. My wife was never listed with an agency. Not that there is anything wrong with being listed. Had I told her that I was going to see a few other chicks while on my return to see her then she would've probably blown me off.

Now I do know Gator. My wife and I had a great Cuban meal at LaTerasita in Tampa several years ago. I find him to be very wise to this process and would advise anyone in the market to adhere to his advice. As a matter of fact there are several on here that I would listen to if I was about to undertake this process. Kiev is no different than Nairobi when it comes to boy meets girl. Well maybe just a little but hopefully most of you will understand the concept implied.

[ScottinCrimea]

Whether we do our filtering by e-mail, by phone or by meeting each one personally, ultimately everyone will do the WOVO eventually.  Everyone here is just debating when it is best to do the filtering and that is very individual with no right or no wrong.  Some do one thing better, some the other.  Why do people seem so intent on insisting that their way is the best?

According to what many state here, I did everything wrong.  I initially wrote to a few, narrowed it down to two and then finally one.  I wrote way too long before I went to visit (one year) and I never spoke to her on the phone before I went.  I had no back up plan other than being sure that I had all my hotel reservations and someone to meet me and drive me from place to place.  I had never worked with an agency and didn't have the names or phone numbers of any.  I was maybe 90% sure that things would be fine, and I wasn't willing to risk the relationship that we had built up by seeing several others on my trip for that 10% insecurity.  I was prepared to live or die based on the 90% surety I had created by my filtering process PRIOR to ever meeting her.

It's a good thing for me that I didn't know about RWD before I went, because the advice many would have given here would have doomed my relationship.  Now before anyone starts to flame me, I freely admit that my situation was unique for a number of reasons and that I am EXTREMELY lucky that things worked out as they did. Unless someone is willing to depend on being a lucky fool as I was, I would highly recommend that they listen to what is said here because 99% of the time they will be better for it.

As an update, my wife and I have known each other now for over 6 years, have been together for 4 and tomorrow will be our second wedding anniversary. Life is good!   

[KenC]

It's a good thing for me that I didn't know about RWD before I went, because the advice many would have given here would have doomed my relationship.  Now before anyone starts to flame me, I freely admit that my situation was unique for a number of reasons and that I am EXTREMELY lucky that things worked out as they did. Unless someone is willing to depend on being a lucky fool as I was, I would highly recommend that they listen to what is said here because 99% of the time they will be better for it.

As an update, my wife and I have known each other now for over 6 years, have been together for 4 and tomorrow will be our second wedding anniversary. Life is good!   

Scott,
First of all, Congrats on your anniversary!!!!!!!!!!!!
 I find the highlighted portion of your post a little odd.  Most here would have advised you to have an agency phone number in your pocket should things not work out with your (now) wife.  Just how would that have doomed your relationship?
KenC

[I/O]

is that necessary to support a viewpoint, I wonder?!!

msmoby_ru: You will "Wonder" quite often as you read around more and more. It goes with the territory.

KenC: Hilarity? Well yes sir I agree and I always get a giggle out of reading your arguments on this subject. Your experience in on line debates serves you very well, in fact much better than does the evidence of your own experience on this subject. Technically, you did the VM thing, but in spite of all your arguments to the contrary, it was VO with a couple of vague reference points. Nothing more.

Your cover on this one was blown IMO, once and for all in your retrospective trip report. IIRC you or your dear wife mentioned that SHE knew damned well you were in love with her and SHE knew you simply needed time to figure out the blindingly obvious. You are very quick to forget the thing most men also forget, that is, SHE knows all.

There is about 40 million warnings on these forums about GTG's (Good Time Girls) and how to avoid them. These very same "warner's" seem to forget the large number of RW forums out there sounding exactly the same warnings on the other side. A VM man will, whether he likes it or not, largely be tossed into the GTB (Good Time Boy) basket. Now if the "boys" are silly enough to think they are clever enough to disguise what they are doing from the women, then.................................oh but in the next breath, they will tell you about how clever these RW are. Yes they are clever, but just not quite as clever as me..................etc etc. Delusional.

The women in this deal have no obligation. Men choose to travel, nobody holds a gun to our heads and says you must. The result is that when push comes to shove you will gain little if any kudos with the women because you travel half way around the world and although economically, we might try to justify meeting many as acceptable because we have risked so much, most women, at the early stage won't cut you any slack on that basis.

Ahhhhhhh this thread has potential................ VO vs VM and even a hint of Moscow vs Kiev, so all we need is a dollop of city vs country to complete the 40 page mix.

KenC: Kiev, my impression from a very fleeting visit and NOT specifically meeting anyone from there and this is back 3 + years now. Yes it is different albeit subtle. I got the impression that because it is a softer visa option and perceived to be a slightly easier travel option, the number of WM visitors relative to population numbers was higher and as a result, the "fabric" of the city was well geared to receive them. I couldn't help but notice the number of WM sitting in various junctures with a UW sitting opposite who wasn't the slightest bit interested in the guy she was sitting with. In reality, I didn't see anything else. What that told me was "Speed dates" or "Coffee dates" were plentiful but if a guy thought he was going to turn it into any more, he would need to do a little more than speed date. Whilst I see some very very fine ladies in Kiev, I think it has one of the highest percentages of GTG's of any city in any country anywhere in the world I have visited. Having said that, there is what, 4 million people or more, so by numbers if nothing else, there will be some fine women in Kiev but I do think there is a slight technique adjustment needed if one is to find the best of Kiev.

I/O