12 Reasons Why International, particularly Russian-American Marriages Fail

[mspanky]

http://russianwomenspeak.wordpress.com/2007/01/07/some-reasons-why-international-russian-american-marriages-fail/

[groovlstk]

Outstanding

[55North]

Indeed.

Check this.....

http://russianwomenspeak.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/filthiest-post-on-russian-women-western-men-interaction-body-language-manners-public-conduct-etiquette-hygiene/

I instantly remember one anecdotal Russian couple. Him: “I’ve fallen in love with my wife after our first date, for her big, sparkling, mysteriously tragic eyes of a baby doe.” Her: “I’ll never forget our first date. It was long and absorbing; so, through all the time we were standing by my home, I nearly cried, my urinary bladder bursting.”

[mspanky]

^^^^^

   I watched

http://www.getrussianwife.com/  "Play Video"
Eduards agency. I don't know but if I were an agency owner I wouldn't have used that guy to show AM in my advertising.

 The guy used every faux-pas possible.

#1. He chewd gum like a cow, even on dates.

#2. Used corny jokes.

#3. was sweating all over the video and remained shirtless andf in underwear when filmed at his hotel. What class!!!!

#4. Drinking beer and talking about his "luck" the night before with one of his dates.

 #5. Dressed like some hick and also spoke like one.

 This guy is priceless and we worry about how badly television programs portray AM in the search. Ed, couldn't you find a finer speciman with class to put in your video? Or were you trying to show any guy no matter how bad his behavior will get a RW because they are desperate. Not a good view of AM for RW.

[Admin]

http://russianwomenspeak.wordpress.com/2007/01/07/some-reasons-why-international-russian-american-marriages-fail/

Interesting list.

12 Reasons Why International, particularly Russian-American Marriages Fail
January 7, 2007 — wonderlander

Just one Google dig into Runet (Russian-language Internet) for mere stats on international divorce rate brought 34 600 sites and pages of serious research and personal experiences… Here are some molecules of this information, rather representative of the whole substance.

1. Same factors that cause local divorces. (Separate post)

2. Lack of mutual love, which makes the following love-undermining problems totally unbearable.

3. Language barrier. Love is communication. Life is communication. Lack of language skills is like living half-deaf-and-numb, after being an opera singer. Like cleaning a floor with a toothbrush. Like using an AMD K4 with a thin dial-up, after a last Pentium with satellite connection. The point is, what goes faster, - her learning, or someone’s getting tired.

    I’ve known so many times when people grow so irritated, even with the innocent others, just for the very fact of continuous strain. In long communication over a language barrier, it is like this: he starts to feel as if she’s dumb. She starts to feel as if she’s dumb, and angry at herself as well as at whatever makes her so. (Same with cultural differences.)

4. The resulting sensoric-informational deficit. Some Russian women are extroverts, some introverts. Many are used to having many pals, chatting with neighbors, colleagues, co-travelers, taxi drivers and beauticians, and exchanging jokes with sales & food service people. Very many prefer to keep silence and/or sit home (until it feels depressing dull). But since you are going to be the #1 person in her life… Even when YOU don’t need much and meaningful talks with your spouse, - SHE does.

    Otherwise, she feels ignored. A top reason for Russian divorces and adultery is Lack of Interest and Understanding, which takes shape of Not Talking (other than “fetch, thanks, do you love me, yes I love you”), or Having Nothing to Talk About. Russian people are curious about world’s events, and used to pondering over global ethical problems, or at least discussing books, films and daily impressions.

Remedy: An initially decent-speaking mate. Her language courses. Much socializing. Books and films in your language. Internet, for Russian-language sources of connection to her native background (also to alleviate the problems mentioned below). Your readiness to communicate intensively, and to be her patient coach.

5. Cultural differences in behavior, between people TOO different by values, attitudes, manners, and neighborhood habits. A long-promised list to be developed here. These differences, especially individualism vs. collectivism, rationalism vs. emotionalism, discipline vs. rulebreaking, success vs. suffering and bashing, may be quite traumatic, - especially for the one relocating into the alien environment (which takes ca. 7 years to adapt into - 3 and 7 years being critical points in every marriage), and still more for a couple of parents as they face a field of unknown-ever problems in bringing up children (however promising a bicultural environment may be for the kid). Particular confrontations arise between Western step-children and Eastern step-mothers.

      Announced is translation from:

    - a Russian Ph.D. (Psychology) Olga Makhovska, practicing therapist and Senior Researcher at the Institute of Psychology of the Russian Academy of Sciences, which has first brought up the statistics of 80% international divorce rate in the recent time of Internet-facilitated dating spree. Author of a frank and well-grounded book on East-West marriages, written upon field studies of 1998-2002 (US, France). Some observations already incorporated into this post;

    - the site of, I dare say, “All-Our-Times-and-Nations’ ” Gooroo of Russian humor (have I mentioned that specific national humor is a foothold and mirror of Former Soviet people’s life?), where Russian-speakers of all nationalities add their experiences to his own well-traveled insights into East vs.West & West vs. East peculiarities;

    - Prof. Daniel Rancour-Laferier of California University, - interview to a Russian source, and abstracts from his “The Slave Soul of Russia. Moral Masochism and the Cult of Suffering”.

6. Resulting loneliness. Russian women need friends. Close friends. It’s in their blood. Female friends. At least one. With similar problems and experiences. Her old friends stay overseas, and connection is lost inevitably. New friends? Fellow emigrantes fall into two categories: helpful & sharing, or jealous & negative. On the other hand, many foreign husbands object to their wives’ friendship with fellow countrywomen, to say nothing about their Western women (who are not much friendship material themselves).

Remedy. A sound common denominator between your mentalities, an environment to live in, which both of you can stand (whatever country), and no hampering to her connections with the diaspora or Web pals. Wrong girls won’t mix with a good one, and vice versa.

7. Her liaison with family. In some cases, keeping her mother close helps (though most mothers are too deeply rooted into their native life, and too fearful and vulnerable for “transplantation”.) On the other hand, there are cases of Russian wives driving their husbands mad for consulting with relatives on their family matters. International variant: hanging on the phone for hours daily. Expat variant: the Great and Terrible Russian Mother-in-Law intruding into everything.

    Professional and Laymen’s Conclusion over Russian Life: A Couple Shalt Not Share Home With Their Parents, for the sake of its sanity.

Checkpoint. How much co-dependency is there between her and her relatives?

8. Common traits and needs – making each other “just like our Russian men”, “just like our Western women”. – “I only wanted a kind husband and an interesting job, but got under lock!” - “How could I know Afros are off the local dating fair for their promiscuous habits!” – “Have enough lazy supremacistic users at homeland!” (Complaints retold by international ex-wives to post-divorce therapists back home… sorry, it was a printed article, can’t give a web link).

http://www.ethnonet.ru/lib/0903-03.html – a Russian social study on the “female exodus”, reliant on different scholarly surveys and statistical data of domestic and foreign national migration services – shows that most “Post-Soviet Wives International” blame their native countries for sexual discrimination, lack of chances for a respected and well-paying job, CONSISTENT with making a sound family (please take these words literally to get rid of feministic fears, and see #8 to watch what consequences an opposite attitude may bring about), AND lack of SUPPORT AND APPRECIATION from fellow countrymen, who offer rudeness, hypocricy, egoism, despotism and parasitism of all kinds as a substitute for “male strength” which implies calm tolerance.

    Many men and women on the international dating fair make similar mistakes, playing up to what they know about the other party’s expectancies, and blaming each other for buying into it. He - brings flowers, opens doors and hints how great he is, - only to cut it off for callous domineering (just after Russian notorious proverbs: “attends to a woman for a month, to get her attend to him for a lifetime” and “hen no bird, woman no human”). She - describes what an addictive houseworker and humble “yes-your-lordship” she is, only to tell around how selfish those Western grooms are.

9. Bride Fairytale Illusions. There are two frequent models of Russian wives’ behavior of “hanging on a man’s neck” without becoming a “full-fledged member of society”, which models turn unbearable to their husbands. (1) “Cinderella Forever”: “Why study language, as well as explore anything outside the house, and bother adapting to foreign life, - it seems so easy to serve the duty of cooking and cleaning, since everything around seems so stable at last.” – Normal reaction of a grown-up, “hunter-winner” man: “What a bore!” Pathological reaction: “Now it’s time to unwind into revenging for all the crimes of feminism!” (2) “Princess Born”: “I’m young and beautiful, I give you great sex, you are my debtor, why aren’t you a movie hero?” – No comment. Anyway, either of the parties finally initiates divorce.

    UPD: See this brilliant brief on class-wise compatibility and misalliance.

Warranty. Clear vision and honest discussion of goals, roles and plans for life.

10. Exploitation. Yes, many people indeed use each other for ends irrelevant to marriage. Women, to jump into a better life, consenting to “tolerance” instead of “love”. Men… The aforementioned international marriage expert quoted a case as exotic as a gay guy playing “as much in love as to have children”, with a girl whom he has “imported” as a surrogate mother.

    Lincoln: “Vile is the weapon of fools who aren’t sly enough to play honestly.” (Excuse me, what’s an exact wording?) Or, as Russian wisdom goes, “Lie is a one-way ticket.” Greencard divorcers often get branded for loneliness. Men get blacklisted, too.

If she is TOTALLY sweet, obliging and “self-effaced” all the way, might be too good to be reliable. It’s, at best, the Hospitality of Hostess and the Cautious Modesty of Guest, and at worst… (Go castigate Natalia for telling it again, but don’t then say you didn’t know.)

11. Savior’s Arrogance. “Eat your America, your money, our house, my car! I’m coming back to lick stamps at my native post office, where no one nuzzles me into my “despicable” past, as well as his own benefactions!”

12. Discardable partners: “Husbands from Hell“ and, in the wives’ turn, “Pet Beasts from Wilderness“. Unfortunately, all these come in legions, often well-masked or maladvertised.

Topic not exhausted.

Sincerely,

© Comrade Natalia

My comments on the above:

Not surprisingly, the most significant factors are those that also affect local marriages.

Numbers 3 and 4 are inseparable.

6 and 7, too, are VERY closely related.

2, 8 and 9 seem like they might be combined with # 1.

# 10, Exploitation, seems appropriately placed in the list - and applies equally to both sexes.

I especially liked the 'signature' of the article. Great sense of humor.

- Dan

[Markus]

I will show the ignorance of the writer of this article.

This author has surely compiled a list of thoughts. I wonder if all 34600 pages
were read. First of all, what is this writers definition of fail? He gives no time frame,
which would make his 1st reason valid for any divorce. I know folks that fall into the "local"
divorce that have been married for over 30 years. That would mean that any International
marriage that was less than 30 years or more fall into this reason. The reason could be anything
that causes a local divorce. Since the writer didn't specify a time frame, what is the use of remaining reasons? Perhaps the writer can specify a time frame. So far, I see a lot of thought going
into this article (not). I realize there's a specific thread on the 1st reason but I "fail" to see how
using this reason justifies the remaining reasons. The 1st reason sums it all up!
2) 2. Lack of mutual love, which makes the following love-undermining problems totally unbearable.
The writer must be a lazy thinker and think I'm an active reader for him to create a reason out of the blue
and say the answer is below. He's a lazy writer and I'm a lazy reader. So scratch number 2.

3) Language barrier. Well, I'm pretty much taboo in this area because I can't recall any other man who
married an FSUW with little English. I did and she speaks English very good today. I can't scratch his
reason because I don't know anyone else who married a lady who spoke much English. The writer must
be a person who is not willing to put up as much effort as I did. When one reads the reasoning for this
number 2, one would think this man has experienced it himself. But, Google is our source. Would Google
show that most marriages fail for this reason? Oh that's right, the writer didn't specify the amount of
marriages. A writer that makes general statements without specifics is not really a person I want to believe.

4) I"m referring to the writer as a dude now rather than the writer.
He says, "Even when YOU don’t need much and meaningful talks with your spouse, - SHE does."
Duh. Everybody likes attention. When would the spouse not want to talk expect for angry moments
or maybe a bad day. Dang, you're giving advice that you think only a genius knows. Where is the
substance is your thoughts? How is this different in a domestic marriage?

5) I think that if the man doesn't put up an effort to prevent this from happening it will be
a problem. I just got back from Russia and I had cultural shock and I've been in the same place
many times. But, good for the writer for stating something so obvious for the men who read
about this process. I think the writer is divorced from an FSUW.

6) Ok, this falls into reason 1.

7) I can't take it anymore. This guy is so full of it that, although I will read the remaining post,
my responses will just continue to show he's full of it.


Now I know this guy is an idiot, "making each other “just like our Russian men”,
And yes I read the rest of the reason. This guy doesn't have a clue.

I"ve read the rest of this story and I'm you telling this guy is a complete idiot. He makes a couple of
good observations but they are thoughts that apply to all marriages. I wasted my time on this
guy because I hope folks don't take him serious. He sounds like a Maxx that went through
a bad experience.

Mark

[I/O]

Mspanky: Good link...!!!

Markus, you've condemned the writer based largely on your own experience. You bucked the odds and pulled it off but it is surely folly to advise people to go that way when they have other choices, is it not? I agree the author has not come up with anything much new, but let's think for a moment if the author hasn't been attached to a RW. If this is the case, then the author hasn't done too badly at all to come up with a pretty good KPI list. Therefore I disagree with your banishing the author to "Idiot Status". I also think the author does have a clue, quite a few clues actually.

I"ve read the rest of this story and I'm you telling this guy is a complete idiot. He makes a couple of
good observations but they are thoughts that apply to all marriages.

How can the "Guy" be a "Complete Idiot" if he makes remarks that apply to "All Marriages"? Surely "All" includes international? Your logic is beyond me.

Some comments

1. Same factors that cause local divorces.

And then some..!!!

2. Lack of mutual love

Interesting one and I suspect much more common than many realise and for a variety of reasons. One part can be the men who see the “body” they want and set their mind to falling in love with it’s owner. Sometimes they do and sometimes they fail. The other side is the pragmatic RW (I’ve spoken to few quite recently with this attitude) who sees a guy who fit’s her requirements and believes within herself that she will learn to love him. Some succeed and some don’t.

3. Language barrier.

The original subject so many of us scream about and so many refuse to listen to. Marry someone you can’t speak with at your own peril IMO, because good sense suggests the risks will be much higher.

4. The resulting sensoric-informational deficit.

Thank goodness for the available internet links, Russian Language (Local content) newspapers, internet TV down streaming and other available resources to help fill the gaps through the initial linguistic / lifestyle adjustment period. These women are information sponges and if the ability to feed that need is removed, then I suspect one is sitting on a time bomb.

5. Cultural differences in behavior.

IMO, this has as much to do with simple acceptance as it does with understanding.

6. Resulting loneliness.

This can kill any woman’s enthusiasm very quickly. It should never be underestimated.

7. Her liaison with family.

Skype is a marvellous resource. (I think I’ll buy shares)

8. Common traits and needs.

Goes far beyond intimacy and eating. You figure out if “Common” exists and I think it advisable to do so before marriage (Sarcasm intended).

9. Bride Fairytale Illusions.

IMO a real potential trap for those marrying the younger girls. I’ve long thought this caper is best suited to those who have been around a little on both sides. Exceptions work, but I suspect they involve greater risk and effort.

10. Exploitation.

Touchy area this one. Doesn’t everyone use everyone to a more or less extent? Is there not something of a “Deal” in many of these marriages?

11. Savior’s Arrogance.

Easy trap to fall into. “I have the right because I am providing you will more than you had” type of thinking. I suspect not too many guys haven’t flirted with this thought at some stage or other.

12. Discardable partners:

Lack of commitment is one of the many “Ills” of modern marriages. Both WM and RW are guilty of this at times from what I can see. Nobody can stop people who think this way from marrying and I guess someone must keep the divorce lawyers in work. It would be sad if they had to go on social security payments.

I/O

[mspanky]

  Markus,


   I believe the aurthor is a RW. The signature says Natalia. I think she has made some valid points and would love to have some of our RW residents chime in.

[groovlstk]

A number of the items in this list (thankfully not #2) were challenges my wife and I faced (or continue to face), and a few of the items at the end of the list we see in local couples we've met.

This is as good a list on this topic that I've ever seen. It's also obvious that the author is not a native English speaker, and despite the awkward sentences it's refreshingly free of the sort of new age psychobabble that characterize most other such writings.

[KenC]

Mark,
I think you are being overly critical of this list.  Personally I think that it is a very good list.  Maybe not perfect, but the best I have ever seen.  With all the thoughts you have expressed here, maybe you should write one yourself?  Please show us a better list.
KenC

[Markus]

I've been motivated to go back and read what I wrote. How boring reading your
own writing. Especially when the guy is and idiot. Oh wait, that's me (smile).

I/O, I wouldn't say I condemned the writer. I just disagreed. The word "idiot" should
have been left out, but I just grew weary of reading such opinionated stuff without
much thought. I thought we had another expert who had thoughts based upon
shallow thoughts. I apologize for using the word idiot, especially to Natalia.

You say I used my own experience. Well, If I read it in a book, I guess that would be
experience too, just not hands on. Or, I could use another person's experience. The
fact is I have to consult myself based up my eyes and ears and knowledge even if
I'm correct or wrong.

Where in the world did you interpret that I was advising people to go the route I did?
I think your are consulting personal experience of knowing my history to support
your false statement. I didn't say what you said I did nor was that my intention.

I/O, the 1st reason why Intl marriages fail summed it all up. As a matter of fact,
it sums up most marriages. My question here is why did the writer use a fact that
applies to just about any marriage? If I say, the reason some people are in debt is
because they are spending more than their income., wouldn't you read that and say,
"duh?"  I'm looking for substance in the writer's facts, and the no. 1 reason is like saying
the sky is always blue.  But, read on.

msspanky,

I missed that signature at the bottom. Frankly, I quit reading because I thought I would
have been there all day typing in my disagreement.  But, thanks for pointing that out.
Now I look like an idiot (smile).

Kenc,

My disagreements have to do with the reasons specifically targeting marriages with FSUW. And you
have read my disagreement to number 1 so I won't repeat it. Reasons 1 and 2 shouldn't be there.
Now, after reading reasons 1, 2 and 3, I realized the writer hadn't put much thought into the so called
facts so far. I had already formed a biased opinion as to what the rest of the story would say.
After rereading the entire post today and reading on what I didn't comment on, and realizing
the writer is actually an FSUW,  I see frustration from personal experience and not reasons that
support the title. So, I would say I fall into the idiot category for not really reading the whole thing.

If she had omitted reasons number 1 and 2, her post would have been much better. Posting the PHD
stuff was also not impressive. But, I realize now that the writer is an FSUW who got burned on
getting the wrong guy. We focus on the board so much about the women, and sometimes it's
the man who found a good lady who screwed up things.

I might also point out that I should put duct tape on my mouth (hands) before forming an
opinion on part of the story.

I am apparently missinterpretting reason number 8? What is being said here? And she seems to be
consulting some off the wall source. Thats the one where I had to stop reading. She makes a
reference to "making each other just like our Russian men", then refers to and Afro. What's this
mean. Was she trying to mess around with some guy while married?

You did bring out a good point though. I won't come up with reasons while International marriages
fail, but, specifically why marriages with FSUW succeed. But, I can only consult me to begin. And
that's enough to start a big debate because we know I was unconventional as apposed to whatever
the definition of conventional is.

Mark

[Curious_George]

a decent article

[Doll]

  Markus,


   I believe the aurthor is a RW. The signature says Natalia. I think she has made some valid points and would love to have some of our RW residents chime in.

I agree with Natalia.
All 12 reasons are fair.