"Trustworthy" Agencies?

[Shadow]

Jack I was the first one to mention BeSmart in this thread. But I also mentioned that as fas as I know, he has not taken this matter up with the main agency. This is what I mean that all we have is noises that go bump in the night.
 
It may be a pink elephant, it may be a duck, and it is much more likely to be a duck than a pink elephant.

Common sense tells Kevin is probably right. But common sense has a history of failing.
So lets examine proof of scam, and try to find who and where exactly the culprits of the scam are. For the men who were scammed it may not make a difference, but for the business as a whole it might. If anyone can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the mayor income from any agency comes from dishonest behavior, and that they are encouraging this kind of behavior then please step forward.

Kevin and pwrhaps CCowboy, could you put the geographical distribution of the letters you receive against the geographical distribution of all profiles ? That could give a good indication.

[Admin]

Shadow, and Dan, I hear where both of you are coming from.

However their becomes a time when common sense has to prevail.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck, but the creature says he is a pink elephant and the creature demands you prove he is a duck when he say's he is a pink elephant. One has to sometimes use common sense if it's not going to be possible for you, or anyone, to convince this duck he is not a pink elephant.

It used to be years and years ago in America if someone was convicted of a terrible crime such as murder our legal system said the prosecution had to present a body, a murder weapon.  Well, cleaver murders were able to dispose of bodies in such a way that they were never found. If you could destroy a body or dump a body in the middle of the ocean and no one could present a body the defense would argue the person is still alive, but is in S. America hiding from the world, you cannot convict my client of this crime.  And for years and years with the American legal system you had to have a body, or parts of a body, to PROVE that the person was dead or had been murdered.

Then prosecution teams across America started presenting all the circumstantial facts and events. They had no body, no murder weapon, so smoking gun, but all the circumstantial evidence and events, or "common sense" pointed to one person as being the murderer.  Prosecution teams then said "Let's present what we have and let a jury decide, let a jury use common sense". 

Kevin is applying common sense. Sure, it's not enough evidence for some people, never will be. But with enough reports, very much like this new guy BeSmart, their comes a time when common sense has to prevail.

Look at what the new member BeSmart wrote just yesterday, ..."Conclusion: Based on my personal experience in over 20 “third party flower deliveries” to ladies on their website: AnastasiaWeb is a complete and total scam. Try to argue that with me, I have all the evidence.".....

Time and time again, reports like this, year after year.  At some point common sense has to prevail.

OK - so if the 'standard' is now "common sense" - let's explore that one just a bit.

For the "scam" to work, it strikes me that this is the scenario:

* Guy is sitting at home and suddenly gets the urge to find an MOB using the internet.
* Guy is ignorant and does no internet research.
* Guy somehow finds a site, unluckily, that is a "scam agency" (whatever the hell that means)
* Guys registers an account there (a REAL one, not a FRAUDULENT one)
* Immediately, the guy (he is 50 years old, 5'7" tall, bald, and weighs 300 pounds buck naked), starts receiving notices that 18 and 19 and 20 year old women have read his profile and sent him a letter. IMPORTANTLY, those notices are ONLY sent to him when he is logged in to that 'free' account at that "scam agency" (whatever the hell that means).
* Old fat bald guy, thinking himself to be God's gift to womankind, decides it must be true! There are, indeed, a treasure trove of 18 year old nubile women who cannot contain themselves and are anxious to 'give themselves' to him - and ONLY to him - and ONLY to him ALWAYS!
* So he decides to 'click' on the 'letter' (which is really NOT a letter, it is only a notice send to some 'in-box' or something all within that agency's site), and pay the cost of the 'credit' to read the letter.
* The cost to read the first letter is (?? - let's say $8), and he devours it - sopping up every word - fantasizing about the photo he saw and imagining her drooling over her keyboard as she was composing every drippy, sappy, word in that 'letter'.
* So he pays to read another. Again, he pays $8, and again he is lost in the fantasy - only this time it is a tall brunette, instead of a lithe blonde - but the fantasy is even better.
* Now he selects another letter. This time a gorgeous buxom grey-eyed bombshell. The fantasy continues.

So Jack - tell me - at what point shall we inject "common sense" into the equation?

You see - some of (MUCH of) what Kevin seems to want to do is protect guys from themselves. His fundamental premise, that he wrote about earlier, is that guys cannot help themselves from clicking on (and paying) a beautiful woman's profile. Should someone (anyone?) be expected to intervene on behalf of that poor soul who cannot exercise the self-restraint to NOT click on the profile? And what of the fundamental premise of 'caveat emptor' (buyer beware). I seem to recall this concept being taught in grade school (maybe it was middle school - but it was certainly PRIOR to high school). It was reinforced throughout my school years - and especially so in business school in college. Is it only me, or should it be expected that others would anticipate a profit motive from any service we elect to engage? Would you walk into a doctor's office and NOT expect there to be some financial transaction? How about taking your car to a mechanic's shop - does he/she work for free? Maybe the stock broker down the street - maybe they will help out and not expect anything in return? What do you think?

Common sense Jack. I like the notion.

- Dan

PS - to be clear, my use of the example above is NOT intended to be a disparaging commentary on anyone that has suffered a loss with a scam. It is designed only to clarify a scenario - and I welcome learning about the real-life experiences of those who felt they were scammed.

[Kevin]

We need to focus on how the network/agency is involved. Yes, some guys don't know a scam site from a non-scam site. But when a network/agency takes advantage of this. That is where a scam/dishonestly of the agency/network is a factor.

If I took my top 10 ladies and sent out a "intro letter" from these ladies to all of my clients. I would not only being dishonest to my clients. I would be on a scam list within 24hrs.  I don't expect other sites to be honest as me. But when we see such a pattern of dishonesty.

The group should assist each other and newbies to avoid such agencies/networks.

Kevin

[Shadow]

We need to focus on how the network/agency is involved. Yes, some guys don't know a scam site from a non-scam site. But when a network/agency takes advantage of this. That is where a scam/dishonestly of the agency/network is a factor.

If I took my top 10 ladies and sent out a "intro letter" from these ladies to all of my clients. I would not only being dishonest to my clients. I would be on a scam list within 24hrs.  I don't expect other sites to be honest as me. But when we see such a pattern of dishonesty.

The group should assist each other and newbies to avoid such agencies/networks.

Kevin

I agree, but how do you suggest we try to focus on that ?
Supposed your top 10 ladies started sending out intro letters to all your new clients, how would you react on this, in all honesty ?

We know as a fact that when you register a fake profile on some sites that have a bad reputation, you will receive letters.
How are you going to prove who sends out the letters ?

[Admin]

I agree, but how do you suggest we try to focus on that ?
Supposed your top 10 ladies started sending out intro letters to all your new clients, how would you react on this, in all honesty ?

We know as a fact that when you register a fake profile on some sites that have a bad reputation, you will receive letters.
How are you going to prove who sends out the letters ?

I think there is another pretty large distinction that is being overlooked.

If I am sitting at my computer, and I see an email come into my In-Box, and it claims to be from a lady having read my profile - that would evoke an entirely different response from me than....

if I am logging into a site, and once logged-in, I see "notices" that tell me I have "Letters" somewhere ON THAT SAME SITE from ladies who have read my profile and want to communicate.

Once again - this may just be my naturally suspicious nature - but these two scenarios are, to me, VASTLY different.

- Dan

[Faux Pas]

Faux Pas, all we established here is that a profile that is constructed not to receive letters still attracts them.
There is no absolute certainty who sent out the letters. It can be the internet agency, it can be the sub agency it can be the women (or others) who are controlling the profile.
Either one of these three is a viable possibility, all we know for sure is that new profiles are scooped and targetted by a letter without viewing the profile. From a technical point of view, if the internet agency provides their sub-agencies and female with a list or feed of new profiles, it is a very easy task to send a form letter to them by a script.
This should be a strong suspicion that the letters might be fabricated, and sent out with the object of financial gain only. However the caveat is that there is zero proof for this.
One might suggest (as has been done) that the form letter is a way to promote real and seeking women to all new subscribers, picking those that will react and are within the criteria of the women. One might suggest that the posters of the profile are the culprits, in order to gain by other dishonest methods (scam, pro-dating).
All three are possible, and any mix of them as well. Fact is that without further investigation there is no proof for the pink elephant, we only hear some noises go bump in the night.

As mentioned before, my wife did not post her profile direct but through a 'ghost agency' that sent out first interest letters on her behalf, this through a 'dating site'. In your definition this is a deceptive way of working that could even be labeled as dishonest. Yet behind it there was at least in one case a real and sincere woman, and the 'ghost agency' never came up until when we discussed marriage agencies and sites much later. There is a strong chance that many profiles on free sites, and even a number of them on agency sites are not managed by the women, but by 'ghost agencies'. Women pay for these services, and get promotion in return.

The bottom line is that it is easy to put a label on an operation, and as said I support the label myself. However there is a distinct difference between putting a label and providing proof. Setting up a fake profile and showing it gets letters is not proof. It is an indication that the letters received do not discriminate by profile and there for might be suspicious.
That still makes it needed to do due diligence on a business model, and when choosing it to provide you with services to know how to use it in your favour. Thinking you are God's gift to women will cost you.

Shadow,
I really do get the message and point you are trying to relay. But again I think you are caught up in the semantics and offering an excuse or possible excuses for a behavior where there simply isn't one. It doesn't matter if it is a subagency or anyone else in between. What does it matter where and how much they divvy up the scam money?

If you want to know who is involved in the nefarious and deceptive scams and practices just look at who is collecting the money. In this case it is an agency that collects a fee for a letter that was supposed to be from a woman. Written by or from the woman are two very distinct things.

When a man signs up to an agency and led to believe they will receive letters from women for cash, that is what they should receive, not letters from an agency, subagency or anyone else or entity in between.

That being said, the only way to level that playing field would be allow the men to pay with Monopoly money. Because it is just as real as the letters that the agency sends out. Of course there is another way. Inform the recipients that the letters are not from the women directly, BEFORE they pay to open and read them.

For the record and I mentioned it up thread, my initial venture into agencies to find this out cost me $100 bucks in less than 24 hours. I felt then as I do now. I was deceived. It's not the money that bothered me it was the fact I was hoodwinked. I despise that. I do not conduct my business in that manner. These type agencies give them all a bad name. IMO

[Shadow]

Faux Pas, what I am trying to point out here is that there is no absolute proof that the internet agency itself deserves the name of scam operation as long as there is no conclusive evidence.
I would like to challenge someone to put a similar bogus profile on freepersonals.ru and other big dating sites then see if it attracts any letters. Yes I hear the cries about them being free while reading being paid on other sites. However if we want to establish that receiving letters to a bogus profile is a dishonest and (potential) scam activity, we should not limit it to one business model.
When the business model is paying for letters, you pay for any letters real and not real, honest and dishonest ones. If one feels that due to the pay-by-letter model one is entitled to better quality control, I would agree. However any kind of quality control does depend on consumers complaints.

When you buy a bad product in a store and do not go back, but instead decide to tell everyone about how bad the product is, you are not giving the store a decent chance to act. When someone who does not need the product goes and buys it just to see if it is bad, he can agree with you. However it still does not give the store, the importer or the producer an alert and the chance to improve their products.
This is a similar case. Complaints are that letters arrive that are presumably dishonest. There is no proof they are, who created or sent the letters. There is no investigation or request for investigation. All that is reported is how bad the product is, without even an attempt to find the cause or give the seller feedback to improve.

You may call it semantics, and from the viewpoint of a guy who paid money for nothing you are right.
What did you do after feeling deceived ? Did you at any point try to reclaim the money or contact the agencies ? Or did you decide that it was a lost cause without even trying ?

[Shadow]

I think there is another pretty large distinction that is being overlooked.

If I am sitting at my computer, and I see an email come into my In-Box, and it claims to be from a lady having read my profile - that would evoke an entirely different response from me than....

if I am logging into a site, and once logged-in, I see "notices" that tell me I have "Letters" somewhere ON THAT SAME SITE from ladies who have read my profile and want to communicate.

Once again - this may just be my naturally suspicious nature - but these two scenarios are, to me, VASTLY different.

- Dan

In most cases the e-mail is made from the notices, and can, depending on the site, be made to look pretty similar.
Many sites have a way to notify you of arrived letters, and some will forwar the letter instead of a notification.

While registered on the site where I met my wife, I suddenly received an interest mail from another site, that I did not register on.
As I had the habit of changing my profile for every site, without going beyond the truth, I knew the source at once.
On my request the owner of the new site delared it a 'cooperation'.
Within 24 hours they new site banned me from their forums, as it turned out they leached a large number of male and female profiles and did not appreciate that being discussed on their site.
After contacting the orginal site owner, he managed to have the new site remove all profiles they took without his knowledge.
Without having taken action, the new site would have gained many members and probably they still did by leeching profiles from various sources.

[Kevin]

A few things that must be implied when joining a site/agency.

1. When you get a letter though any agency/network that the ladies read your profile and is interested.. Otherwise it is spam.  (exceptions would be matchmaking service and they better inform the client upfront if he is paying to read them)

2. The owner of a site is responsible for its context and procedures.

3. If the owner allows such actions. Then the owner is responsible.

4. When I get a notice to Read a letter from anyone. (lady, client, ect) it is implied that such person wrote it too me.  Why should it be different from a lady on a network site?

kevin

[Kevin]

Faux Pas, what I am trying to point out here is that there is no absolute proof that the internet agency itself deserves the name of scam operation as long as there is no conclusive evidence.

I agree to the point. But at the same time with the agency is informed of such letters and allows the agent to continue sending such letters after the case has been presented. Then the agency giving its consent for such activity. (either you stop it or allow it). Both the agency and agent made money.  My proof showed multiple agents doing the same thing. I have seen no agents remove.

Note: I am also aware of some very honest agents in both of the networks that i mention.  I've email me a few of them off line and they are aware of this technique but do not take part in it.  They refer to it as easy money.

Kevin

[Shadow]

A few things that must be implied when joining a site/agency.

1. When you get a letter though any agency/network that the ladies read your profile and is interested.. Otherwise it is spam.  (exceptions would be matchmaking service and they better inform the client upfront if he is paying to read them)

2. The owner of a site is responsible for its context and procedures.

3. If the owner allows such actions. Then the owner is responsible.

4. When I get a notice to Read a letter from anyone. (lady, client, ect) it is implied that such person wrote it too me.  Why should it be different from a lady on a network site?

kevin

1. If the lady joined a matchmaking service and the man a network, how to see this point ?
2. Agreed
3. Agreed as well.
4. When you receive a letter it is implied that someone sent it, not that they wrote it.  Many (auto)biographies are not written by the name on the cover.

I agree to the point. But at the same time with the agency is informed of such letters and allows the agent to continue sending such letters after the case has been presented. Then the agency giving its consent for such activity. (either you stop it or allow it). Both the agency and agent made money.  My proof showed multiple agents doing the same thing. I have seen no agents remove.

Note: I am also aware of some very honest agents in both of the networks that i mention.  I've email me a few of them off line and they are aware of this technique but do not take part in it.  They refer to it as easy money.

Kevin

So far I have not seen proof of multiple agents, I have asked you for a geographical distribution. Also I have not seen you or anyone posting a case presented to an agency. All that has been presented so far are notices of letters sent to a fake profile.

[Kevin]

Shadow
Log into the aweb account. You will see ladies from different cites.  Aweb has different agents in each city. You may also click on the ladies profiles and see what agent they belong too.

(1). Matchamaking services typically include the ladies letters as part of the service. Typically their is no extra fee for the letter. (no money for the letter is the exception).

Kevin

[Shadow]

Shadow
Log into the aweb account. You will see ladies from different cites.  Aweb has different agents in each city. You may also click on the ladies profiles and see what agent they belong too.

(1). Matchamaking services typically include the ladies letters as part of the service. Typically their is no extra fee for the letter. (no money for the letter is the exception).

Kevin

Kevin,

If the ladies joined matchmaking services, I doubt they are the ones paying.
further more you are the one making the claims. The burden of proof rest upon you.

[Kevin]

Shadow
I am referring to the Men who orders and pays for  a Matchmaking service that includes letters from ladies and introduction of ladies.  I did not test any agencies matchmaking service. I only tested to see if the lady read my profiles and the letters I was asked to pay to read sent by the ladies.

Out of the letters that I have received. I have the contact information for the Odessa agent and he is not involved with any other city. I know have 42 letters on this profile some of them from Russia. I could.  I can prove that more then one agent is involved.

Here is a 19yr  old that wrote me. I am contacting her though my agent to see if she wrote the letter.

http://www.anastasia-international.com/pages/lady/profile/profilepreview.aspx?LadyID=1115418&activeViewIndex=1

[Admin]

Shadow
I am referring to the Men who orders and pays for  a Matchmaking service that includes letters from ladies and introduction of ladies.  I did not test any agencies matchmaking service. I only tested to see if the lady read my profiles and the letters I was asked to pay to read sent by the ladies.

Out of the letters that I have received. I have the contact information for the Odessa agent and he is not involved with any other city. I know have 42 letters on this profile some of them from Russia. I could.  I can prove that more then one agent is involved.

Here is a 19yr  old that wrote me. I am contacting her though my agent to see if she wrote the letter.

http://www.anastasia-international.com/pages/lady/profile/profilepreview.aspx?LadyID=1115418&activeViewIndex=1

Kevin,

>>I am referring to the Men who orders and pays for  a Matchmaking service<<

When a guy registers an account at A-web, is he placing an "order" for "Matchmaking service" ?

>>Here is a 19yr  old that wrote me. I am contacting her though my agent to see if she wrote the letter.<<

If you are successful with contacting her, please be sure to inquire if she would be willing to visit here and maybe answer a few OTHER questions - such as: "What is your expectation of the IMA you register with?" If she is unable to participate here in English, in this instance, RWD will pay for one of our translators to communicate with her.

- Dan

[Sculpto]

ok, here I go again...

First.. Kevin.. why do you persist in this game of posting fake profiles on ua-ladys or AWEB.  You have been doing this for years.  Frankly, it looks to merely like a type of disguised promotion of your own site that discredits you in the end.  If your site is so great and so much better than those other sites your reputation and referrals should keep you busy enough.  But, you don't and you keep posting the fake profile and creating threads about it.  Seems like you are trying to distract attention from something.  JMO, but...WTF?

Now.. through my research this is what I have learned about how the brick and mortar affiliate agencies work with sites like AWEB and Army etc. 

Each local agency is independent but a member of the Ukrainian Association of Marriage Agencies, or whatever it is exactly called.  The agencies sign contracts with the sites allowing the site to publish the agencies profiles.  The girls who actually do go into these brick and mortar agencies are enticed in with a variety of advertising methods, from simple honest ads about meeting soul mates, to contests and giveaways to straight up payouts for referrals and don't forget free glamour photo shoots.  There are also recomendations from the photographers and models agencies who have contact with a lot of pretty girls.  The models agencies and the marriage agencies may be one in the same.  Some of these agencies may also function as escort services though I have yet to prove it to my own satisfaction.. just a rumor I have heard a few times from some girls in Russia.  So, now you are an agency with a pile of profiles and a contract with a site.. your profiles start generating letters and your contract stipulates you get a certain percentage for each letter answered, each gift delivered and so on.  You see that the money is good but could be better, so, then you set up an additional contract with another site.. so, lets say now you are on AWEB and Army and your revenue doubles.. then you get greedy and start putting up the girls on every site you can find.  Bingo.. now you hit the jackpot.. plus.. you get to generate additional income from guys who actually visit by directing them to certain eateries, taxi drivers, terps fees, apartment commisions, intro fees, and of course hitting the second jackpot with the bait and switch.  Gosh, its a really profitable business!  No wonder so many are trying to get a piece of the action!

Do the girls get paid and are they part of the scam?  Maybe.. in some cases certainly.  Provable?  Not likely.  Do all the girls know they are on this or that site?  Definitely not.  As Besmart pointed out with his sterling method many girls may not even be aware they are on a site. 

Now, here are a couple of specifics.  two years ago when I started out on HRB I had a short correspondence with a lovely lady named Olga in Odessa.  When she demanded flowers for Day of the Woman I chided her for demanding a gift and she persisted.  We argued about it for a couple of days and then I sent her the damn flowers and ended the contact until a year later when I was headed to Odessa and Kherson to meet someone else.. I asked her if she wanted to meet and she said maybe.. I didn't have time so nothing came of it.  Then.. a few months ago I got a letter from Olga.. but this time on NatashaClub.  The letter did not appear as a generic scam letter, but, it was clearly written as a "just to me" as if she had never seen me before.  I called foul, wrote the "terp/manager" back telling them to FO, that I know Olga from prior correspondence, made the complaint to Greg Yarmosh at NatashClub and he refunded the stupid credits.  Her profile remains.  How many times a day does this happen???

here is Olga's # on HRB id # 165622
and on NatashaClub #Olga1167     

Now I am sure this Olga is a very nice lady, very accustomed to the finer things in life.. but in the four or five years her profile has been up, (determined by her profile number on HRB and "carbon dating") she has never updated her photos or managed to learn any English.  Complaints have been made on both sites, yet there she is still generating revenue.  There must be hundreds if not thousands more just like her.

The scam will not end until the paying customers make it end.  How that will happen, I do not know.

I have a friend in Odessa who was being paid by her agency.  She quit in disgust and guilt.  I will ask her if she will join this forum, though, I doubt she will do it because she indicated very specifically she was afraid of what could happen to her if she went public with the information.

I can also post literally hundreds of girls profiles who I have researched and are part of bad brick and mortar agencies in just about every city in Ukraine.  But.. you can do it yourself.. if you see a girl on any of the big sites search for her on all the others.. if she appears and more than a couple of sites with identical profile.. well.. 99% chance she has no idea what is being done in her name, or if she is being paid she knows.. you can easily test this using a similiar method to Kevin's.. different profiles on different sites.. but.. you can also take my word.. I got a look in the backside when I was in Kherson, plus the information from my friend in Odessa.

Have a good weekend everyone.