So Few Actually Visit

[Taz]

The Britney was a compliment. She's a fat chick I am attracted to. 

[Ooooops]

The Britney was a compliment. She's a fat chick I am attracted to. 

Oh yeah - plump, blond and no undies!   

[Taz]

Yea, after all the losers she's dated I'd be a step up!  Maybe not a big one but in the right direction...

Just for the record blondes, while attractive, are not my kryptonite. I have an incredible weakness for redheads and brunettes. That is why I try to avoid dating them. I just can't say no to them.

I do hope you realize that while I may disagree with you, I do respect your opinion. If we all agreed with each other it would be pretty boring and we wouldn't grow as much.

[Ooooops]

I do hope you realize that while I may disagree with you, I do respect your opinion. If we all agreed with each other it would be pretty boring and we wouldn't grow as much.

Deal!   Lets agree to disagree!   

[Taz]

Nah, can't do it. I might agree with you sometime. That would ruin both of our images here! 

[Ooooops]

That would ruin both of our images here! 

But do you really care?   

PS.   BTW,  I die my hair white (way beyond blond) and!  I'm from Moscow!   

[Taz]

Wow, I'm from Moscow too. What metro? 

A native Moskvichka is pretty cool. I dated one for many years and we would have gotten married except for her father's health. The wannabe Moskvichki are the ones I don't like. You know, the newly arrived ones who claim to be from Moskva but aren't.

The one I dated had an elitist attitude but was a good person at heart and very sincere. She did work very hard and was quite successful even with all the rampant sexism she had to deal with.

[Ooooops]

What metro? 

Имени Ленина, of course!      The marbled castle that all of us, Moscovites, can share!   

[Taz]

I was at Новокузнецкая. Actually I was between that and Театральная, right on the river. Great location, only 5 minute walk across the bridge to Red Square. Sometimes I miss Moscow but I never missed the traffic or the gypsies out begging everywhere. I also don't miss almost getting killed there several times either.

[Ooooops]

I was at Новокузнецкая. Actually I was between that and Театральная, right on the river.

Are you talking about living at hotel/apartment there or being born there?   

[msmoby_ru]

I am not saying you fibbed, just what you admitted is that you got lucky.

Hi Taz.. "the luck" was "finding" each other on a web site... I STILL say luck has very little to do with things after that - we made our own luck..

Sometimes it is better to be lucky than skillful.

See above ! Same response;)

When I am there, in the flesh, it means far more to them than 50 letter they could receive. They'll learn far more about me in 20 minutes than they could in those 50 letters. It is no longer a virtual relationship and it is the beginning of a real one. I'll maintain and to quote what you said to "quite certain of what you'll encounter- and remove your "fluke" factor", well to do that you MUST meet in person. Before that it is totally speculation! You can do some pre-screening by writing ahead of time but is that how you would normally meet a woman in your native country? I try to date the woman as much as possible in what would be a normal way. Granted with the rise of the internet there is more online dating taking place but still many people meet for the first time just in passing. That is what I like to do. I can see how she takes care of herself. How she acts. How she walks and talks. How she interacts with other people. Letters will never tell you that.

Taz, as you know many more folk in the FSU have pcs - always on internet connections web cams, messaging, and I have a vonage business voip that allows me to talk to Russia non stop - connection was crap at first- but they have seemingly improved their terminating partner over there.


So, I knew how she looked /talked  / dressed / liked to eat / drink / and she'd send an sms when she was home from work and we'd  discuss all kinds of  "issues"  ... When we met she was exactly what I'd expected...No ..BETTER !

This why dating a FSU lady using a dating agency, that stops you connecting directly, doesn't speak good English, that  hasn't got a PC, or has a slow connection was suddenly "old hat"...  I know I'm excluding a huge number of ladies here.. but suddenly all my boxes were ticked

So, I agree letter writing ( alone) is next to useless !

I don't go to the FSU to meet women. I have a strong connection to the country

me, too .. Where you a double or triple agent ?!

You don't just marry the woman but her family as well.

How true, and we see you learnt that the hard way.

Yet, again *I* assumed much and was WRONG ...     

Interesting to "spar" with you.

[Blues Fairy]

The wannabe Moskvichki are the ones I don't like. You know, the newly arrived ones who claim to be from Moskva but aren't

And what's so unlikable about them?  Many people relocate to Moscow for career opportunities and personal reasons.  After living there for 2+ years - working, getting around, building relatiohnships, paying taxes, and losing more and more ties with their home towns - most can well claim to be from Moscow.  I would ask you to explain what is so profoundly wrong with that? 

[FootballDad]

StevieJ said:
"And you know what? I really appreciate it and enjoy. She likes to be attractive for me and its wonderful. And I confess, it keeps me on my toes too. I think I definitely live a more healthy lifestyle because of her".

That might be one of the best rationale's I have heard on RWD yet about this arguement.  And Taz, your insight & experience in this and other matters is truly appreciated.

[Taz]

And what's so unlikable about them?  Many people relocate to Moscow for career opportunities and personal reasons.  After living there for 2+ years - working, getting around, building relatiohnships, paying taxes, and losing more and more ties with their home towns - most can well claim to be from Moscow.  I would ask you to explain what is so profoundly wrong with that? 

I don't have a problem with anyone moving to Moscow. There is a distinct difference between the people that grew up there their entire lives and those who didn't. Just like if I move to NYC, I am not a New Yorker just because I move there. It isn't exactly like Moskva is my favorite city in the FSU. Just like everywhere there are good and bad people.

I have found that the many of the friends I have there have a totally different attitude and personality than those of other areas. Quite often they do look down on the "provintsialnie goroda" as if the people are some hicks that just moved in. Quite honestly I don't like that aspect of them. OTOH they tend to be exceedingly cultured and well spoken and typically very well educated. Of course is true of all people in Moskva, of course not!

What I don't appreciate is people claiming to be something they are not in the interest of claiming a false advantage. There is perceived status to living in Moskva or Piter as they are truly the capitols of Russia even though they typically raped the rest of the country to achieve a lot of their prominence. That is a topic for another day.

I am originally from California. I can't tell you how many times I encountered people who claimed to be native Californians but weren't. It became a running joke among my friends and I.

So you can claim to be from somewhere but if you weren't born and raised there you really aren't from there. You can try and imitate the people and be as similar to them but you will never be THEM! If I move back to Moscow, pay taxes, have a relationship again, search for work, etc., does that make me a TRUE Moscovite? I think. Just as I lived in Atlanta for 10 years it didn't make me a Southerner either.

So while I wasn't born in Russia, I was in Moscow likely before a lot of the women on this list were even born. I spent a lot of time there and used to know the metro system as well as any native Russian. I wasn in Piter when it was Leningrad. I've likely seen more of the FSU than the vast majority of Russians. I've been from Irkutsk on east. Some day I'll see the Kamchatka peninsula. I've been in every oblast in Ukraine. I've been in Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Belarus and almost every country in Western Europe including all the Nordic countries. Traveling is my passion and I lived Europe for a while as well so it isn't like I have no experience or I am a "one trip wonder".

The reason I learned Russian is not for the women but so I could travel to more areas without assistance. I wanted to rely on myself. I also speak Spanish and German. I made some wonderful friends in my travels and along the way met some amazing women through those same friends. There is so much to explore that I love to keep coming back. Unlike most of the men here, my first trip to Russia and likely the next 10 had nothing to do with meeting RW. I had a passion for the country and kept going back. My parents loved their time there as well. Someday I'll likely retire in Ukraine. I am working on my retirement plans already to live there. Quite a few years away but I've got the area picked out. 

[Blues Fairy]

Taz, you generalize too much.  I assure you, there's no "distinct difference" between well-mannered, educated native Moscovites and well-mannered, educated "provincials" relocated to Moscow.  Just like there's no profound difference between a Moscow-born snob and a transplanted snob.  Since you have observed that many of your native-Moscovite friends are snobs and look down on provincials, how will you explain that you like the Moskvichkas, but dislike those who claim the capital city as their own, yet have come there from other areas? 

Also, if you are so well-traveled across Russia, it's strange that you didn't notice how much more homogeneous Russian culture is across its major towns than American culture across its parts.  Remember the movie "The Irony of Fate"? What was so "distinctly different" between the Moscow and St. Pete characters and settings? 

[Taz]

Generalizations are often quite useful. I never said Moskvichki are my favorite women. I like the real ones better than the fake ones but they are not at the top of my RW list. I generally hate snobs. That is why I typically avoided a lot of women in Moscow. As I said, there are good and bad people everywhere. Top women on my list are those in Siberia. Siberians are typically the warmest and friendliest people I've met anywhere in the FSU. Is that a generalization, sure but life is full of them.

Homogenous mostly in Moscow and Piter and mostly because it is mostly white. Russians are some of the most racist people I've met. If you aren't white you definitely discriminated against.

As for Moscow and Piter it is like a continual competition while those two cities plundered the rest of the FSU for its riches. Only in the last few years is more money being left in areas like Tomsk, Novosibirsk and the like. In the past the big money vacuum was hooked up to the remote cities and Moscow and Piter sucked the wealth out of the rest of the country and used it for their cities.

Just like in the past all roads "led to Rome" all the money trails for many years led only to Moscow and Piter. Just like Stalin sucked the life out of Ukraine and caused mass starvation.

[Blues Fairy]

I never said Moskvichki are my favorite women. I like the real ones better than the fake ones but they are not at the top of my RW list. I generally hate snobs.

And yet, "fake Moskvichka" is something only a true snob would say.  One is known by one's vocabulary.

I was born in the Altai, went to school and college in Novosibirsk, and lived in Moscow for the last 5 years before relocation to USA.  During those 5 years, I was a Siberian to my friends in N-sk; a Moscovite to my friends in St. Pete and other towns; a big city girl to my friends in Moscow - just like them, regardless of our origin; and to Moscow snobs - a provincial, or a fake, as you put it.  By the way I was labeled I knew who I was dealing with. 

I still don't understand what you so dislike about "fake" Moskvichkas.  The term and your attitude to it obviously imply that they are inherently lower quality people than the "real" ones. 

[steviej]

... Russians are some of the most racist people I've met... 

Taz, for all your hard opinions, I didn't expect to hear you towing the party line on this one. IMHO, Russians are only racist in the normal way that normal people are. Here in the US, and even quite a bit in Western Europe now, white people, and especially white men, are under enormous and constant pressure and brainwashing to "not be racist", which is a completely abnormal, and actually unhealthy and even suicidal position. There is an ideology bordering on religious frenzy which is inserted, and permeates, every aspect of our lives now. The Bolsheviks would be proud, that's for sure.

[Ooooops]

IMHO, Russians are only racist in the normal way that normal people are.

And what way would it be, I wonder?   

[Taz]

I don't have much time to write so I'll be brief. Political correctness is a bunch of BS. The forced tolerance doesn't. My, as you say, hard opinions didn't form over night and they aren't has hard as you think. It is obvious how non-whites are treated in the FSU. I've seen again and again with my own eyes. A friend of mine who is obviously not white was discriminated against repeatedly while there. He was constantly followed around in stores and often treated as if he was stealing something every moment. I am towing any party line. I saw it again and again. Even my ex was very intolerant of black. Almost all the RW I know here are the same way.

Do you think German society is tolerant? They treat immigrants like they are war prisoners. A woman I dated for several years, from Moscow, immigrated to Germany. She had 2 red diplomas and was an incredible woman in all senses of the word. They basically put her in what could loosely be described as a concentration camp for months on end. That's how all the immigrants were treated. They weren't allowed to work or they would lose any benefits.

I am not racist at all. Matter of fact my ancestors belong to the most screwed over group of people likely to ever live in America. The blacks were treated like royalty compared to most of my ancestors. Yet I hold no grudge against anyone for it. I can't change the past and I am not going to dwell on it.

As for fake or real Moskvichka, I never said fake were worse. Fake is fake as in unreal. My point was I don't like people pretending to be something the are not. There IS a differece between people that have lived almost all their lives vs. ones that are new there. Same is true in the US. I don't like the vast majority of people in NYC. They often have terrible attitudes and are very boorish. Boston isn't high on my list either. Same elitist attitudes as Moscow.

As I've said time and again, Moscow women are far from my favorites to date. I have many friends in Moscow but it would take a very unique woman from there for me to be interested in dating her. Even while living there I can't say I enjoyed it. I appreciate many things about it but I'd never be interested in living there again. Once was enough for me.

While I loved the woman I dated, her elitist attitude was an issue for me. It rubbed me the wrong way but her other qualities were amazing so I dealt with that aspect. She obviously looked down on others that were below her social standing. It reminded me too much of Europe and royalty. Until I started dating her I'd normally go to Siberia to relax where the people were typically more friendly and open.

Like it or not, you are going to be labeled in life. I don't let labels define me. I personally don't care if anyone on this board loves or hates me because very few of you know who the real person is behind my online persona. A few guys here do know what I offer as a friend and as a person in general. They know the struggles and my successes in life. Its not like I left a trail of broken RW hearts either. I treat women well and almost any woman I ever dated would want me back. I take great care of my family and friends and I have a big heart. I've done more to help disadvantage Russian kids on many of my trips than almost anyone here will ever know.

So I may come across as having hard opinions but they gradually evolved over many years and not by keeping my eyes and ears shut. I've seen both the good and bad in Russia. I've seen the aftermath after a friend was assasinated by the Russian mob because he didn't want to sell his business. His wife called me up and asked me to come over. There was her husband, my friend, lying in a pool of blood.

One thing I've learned through all this is Russian woman may look soft on the outside but they are incredibly hard on the inside a lot of the time. It is a waste of time often to argue with them even when they are obviously wrong.

[Ooooops]

Blues Fairy, a "true Moscovite" will never say "ponaehali tut!".   

[Gator]

I hear all the time how Moscow women are arrogant and snobbish.  It surprises me to hear it from a frequent traveler.


My wife was born and raised in Moscow as were her parents and her grandparents and ancestors before them.  I have spent 4 1/2 years  mingling with the Moscow crowd.  I also spent 1 1/2 years mingling with the provincial ladies.  And have met provincial ladies who lived in Moscow for a couple of years.

The only difference I can see is sense of fashion.  I see no stark difference in personalities - individual traits vary far more with no pattern associated with origin.


Believing Moscow women snobbish is just as erroneous as the opinion expressed by some RW that UW are lower class.  Yet, I have heard it voiced by several men, which prompts me to think that Moscow women perhaps expected better in a man than what these men delivered.  Nothing wrong with that.

Last evening, my wife and I were with two women from provincial cities, one from Ukraine and the other from Russia.  All three were of the same approximate age.  Interesting, the only RW experienced at milking goats and skinning rabbits is the Moskvichka.

Oooops, my wife informed me that when stuck in Moscow's awful traffic or jammed into a metro, she would think if not utter "ponaehali tut!".  Interesting, the new Moscow arrivals are telling the long-time Muscovites to leave the city because they have had the city too long for just themselves.  Move out and let new people move in.  So she did!     

[Misha]

Believing Moscow women snobbish is just as erroneous as the opinion expressed by some RW that UW are lower class.  Yet, I have heard it voiced by several men, which prompts me to think that Moscow women perhaps expected better in a man than what these men delivered.  Nothing wrong with that.

We are starting this again LOL   

[Ooooops]

Oooops, my wife informed me that when stuck in Moscow's awful traffic or jammed into a metro, she would think if not utter "ponaehali tut!".   

Moscow subway have been jammed as far as I can remember.  As for the traffic - poor planning and cheaper cars are at fault.   And, of course, growing population, I agree.

Can you understand Russian?   This is a great cartoon about "ponaehali tut"   

http://www.mult.ru/projects/mas/mults/mult_21.html

[Gator]

Can you understand Russian?   This is a great cartoon about "ponaehali tut"   

http://www.mult.ru/projects/mas/mults/mult_21.html

I understood only about 10% of the words, yet I could understand that it was about a villager coming to Moscow and being greeted rudely.  I laughed, mainly at watching Sabina laugh.  Sabina says "spasibo" for sending it.

Moscow subway have been jammed as far as I can remember.  As for the traffic - poor planning and cheaper cars are at fault.   And, of course, growing population, I agree.

Cars are relatively cheaper because people have more money.  It is not just the number of cars, but contributing to the problem are:

-  less than stellar transportation engineering,

-  the manner in how Russians drive,

-  and how police enforce traffic.

I recall an hour-long delay at one intersection where nine lanes coming into the intersection must merge into four lanes leaving (with another four lanes coming the opposite direction). There was no accident, and the traffic moved - after every light change, one or two cars could advance.  I asked Sabina, "Where are the police to direct traffic?"  She replied, "They never come here because it is too busy to collect bribes."


Traffic will get worse, far worse as percentage ownership is still low.  I understand the future alternative is to prevent most cars from entering the first ring.

You said poor planning.  For sure, on both a micro (city) and macro (national) scale.  The mistake was not encouraging much more economic development in provincial cities so that 10 million people do not move to Moscow in search of gold.  Russia could have done this easily; although it is not communist anymore, it still has far more central planning than America. 

Also, huge amounts of money were to be made.The influx of people to Moscow allowed some wealthy people to get even wealthier by building new apartments, and the wealthy few prevailed.