Risky Business

[Jet]

I wouldn't call this a can of worms, - more like a Pandora's box with all the problems and troubles and... bright shining Hope at the bottom Because like it or not - if we can we should ... ethically, carefully, setting rules as we go, but... See, there's no other option. This is the nature of science, research, discovery. If one suppresses it - on the high moral, religious, etc. grounds, there's always another guy somewhere, who'll develop this something, and who knows... E.G. there are some things that I'd rather see the U.S. develop and use than, say, N Korea or even China.

It's a nice theory, but not universally applicable.

Who is to judge if a person's mind "outlived it's usefulness" and/or "isn't properly functioning? And what is your believing friend proposing to do about it? And to me it's moral and ethical for the physician - which wasn't in doubts since at least Hippocrates'  times - that he preserve and prolong life. It'd be nice too if the ethical and moral doctor would consider first needs and desires of his patients. Surprisingly big proportion of maimed and disabled, horribly disfigured sometimes, terminally ill and suffering want to live as long as possible  - and not to depend on the judgement of someone, who'll want to terminate them due to inferior quality of life.

The doctor is not proposing anything, merely voicing his concern, and in my opinion *if* there is ANYONE who might be qualified to determine the state of a person's brain function, a neurosurgeon would be pretty darn close to the top of the list. Certainly patient's and their family's wishes should be taken into consideration and given a lot of weight (I don't believe he'd disagree either).
 

Again, who is to judge and to decide? And we aren't talking exactly about this. Was she|he careless? Were they naive? Did the condom manufacturer goof, etc., etc. - it doesn't matter. What matters - can the embryo survive outside the womb or not? Sophisticated equipment notwithstanding, the plain truth is that if there are no lungs - no equipment in the world could help. With Darwin, Good Lord or US Marines able to do nothing about it.

Point taken

[Misha]

I'm a virgin but if I wasn't, I'd probably pull out before release.

As Ooooops notes, not a very good option. Men often release a few drops of semen before ejaculation. These few drops are potentially enough for a woman to get pregnant.

[Ronnie]

Ronnie,

Congratulations on your highly moral and unselfish life of sympathetic pregnancies, child rearing, and donating bone marrow and kidneys.  I, mere selfish mortal, will never compare to your brilliant virtues.  But I will not, under any circumstances, throw a stone at another mere mortal for not wanting to go through with a complicated pregnancy, or give birth to a sick child, or raise a child in a single-mom household on a minimum wage.   

But that's just me, the immoral selfish atheist.

Well, now were getting on topic.  Risky business.  What I hear you saying is that since there is a risk of some kind... who needs it?  Fine.
Well leave the debate over abortion with your summation and Olga's George Carlin comedy sketch (I wonder if he's altered his routine now that he's playing to a different audience).  Oh, by the way Olga, perhaps you could explain how there are "real living people" without conception and the sacrifices of parenting.  Seeing beyond one's own nose is apparently very difficult for some.  In America, we have mothers' day and fathers' day.  Not just women's day.  Perhaps that's where our cultures differ.  Putin recently spoke of paying women to have children.  Putin obviously understands what motivates his people better than I.  So as I said, I'm willing let it drop as a dead horse issue. 

As to the OP's original point....  He's right on with his list of risks...he's defined them well it seems.  Each person must make a decision about his/her own future,  consider the potential risks and rewards.   I count myself as a risk taker when the rewards are potentially worthwhile and I understand the risks and know I can recover if the enterprise fails.

The words that sum up the attitudes of many of us were written by one of my favorite people:

It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or when the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat.
---Theodore Roosevelt

[Misha]

Each person must make a decision about his/her own future,  consider the potential risks and rewards.

I like the Russian saying: "Who doesn't take a risk, does not drink the champagne."

[Ronnie]

A new Mothers' Day?  Last Sunday in November?  Don't tell my wife, please!  We celebrate so many holidays that soon we'll be going out to dinner to celebrate the rare non-holiday!

[msmoby_ru]

On a lighter note.. which "smart Alec" told FSU folk about Valentine's Day?! ... now we have International Women's Day AND this relatively new occasion to buy more flowers

I was the "mug" that turned up in Siberia on Feb 14th 2007 ( a surprise)  and couldn't find a table at a restaurant ... Her Mum had advised that they didn't celebrate this day in Russia ))))

Listening to what Mother-in-Law advises .. now THAT's a "risky business"....

[Admin]

You will find the posts pertaining to abortion split into a new topic, here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7861.0.

- Dan

[KenC]

I just finished working 14 days in a row and am mentally lazy. But, I highly respect
Kenc who has posted a topic that deserves attention. He has again come up with
a topic that requires a man attempting this process to think about. I promise I will
go back and read all of the responses.  My thoughts are not a disrespect to Ken's
original post, but an addendum to a process that does have a risk. Let's consider
the risks that Kenc challenged and the risks that I challenged.

Risk of marrying a lady too junior your age ( a risk omitted in the original post).
I consider this risk to be very risky. Consider a 45 year old man going for a 20 year
old hottie. Now, any 45 year old would be interested in a 20 year old hottie. All you
have to do is consider the same risks in your home town. Now, knowing that FSUW
are not programmed like AW, it's very possible to get an FSUW as your wife with this
age difference. They want a man who will take care of them. Kenc did this same,
exact very thing. I might have the ages off by a year or 2, but he took an extremely
high risk and has been married for 10-12 years. The point is that he took a risk and
it worked for him. Although this age difference risk is not mentioned, Kenc is correct
in stating it's absurd to think a man can do this in his home town. When one weighs
the looks of a gal in his home town versus doing this same thing with an FSUW, it
would be rare in your home town to make this work. It's highly possible with FSUW.
Then again, the other risks that Kenc stated still exist.  Now to me.

I will be happily married for 4 years in July of this year. I wrote and talked on the
phone with a lady for 3 months. I visited her and proposed during the 1st week of
being with her. She is my wife today. Through observation on this board and a
previous board, I took a big risk. That risk was worth everything that I had hoped
for. I'm just wondering if I should have gone for an 18-year old gal (just kidding).
Oh, i forgot to mention that my wife didn't speak any English when I met her.
I have run over the language barrier risk with a big Mac Truck. It wasn't an issue.
Then again, perhaps the efforts of my wife and I made it work. It was a risk, but
I would rather risk marriage with an FSUW than with a WW.

Do you know how easy, and let me repeat that word, easy, it is to sit back in
comfort and give advice to folks just beginning? It's easy. My point is that the
risks stated in the original thread are valid, but omit the risks the poster took.
It's like me giving you an oral exam when I wrote the questions and
have had time to find the answers. I am more impressed by a man who asks
questions he doesn't know the answer to but is willing to find the answer.

Kenc is correct that the risks are more in going the FSUW route. But, he should
not worry about the same risks in America; What hot, good looking young 20sh
would go for him? It's possible if he flashes the checkbook. Young 20 year old
AW are not interested in 45 year old men. If they were, I think we could
create a new thread on those risks.

There are risks in this process. It's all about establishing a relationship. If you cannot
trust your lady after you think you have her, you won't ever trust her. You
can work through language barriers if you have patience. I don't and I did. Don't
be scared away from the risks. I promise you if you go the local gal route, there
are risks. The easy thing to do is nothing. Who said you will never bat over .300
until you take the bat off your shoulder? It's the same thing. When in doubt, run
it by this board.

Markus

 





I will be happily married for 4 years in July. What risk did I take (this was a typo...but, regardless of the risk
I took, where am I today? I would never have (gotten) this far if I didn't take a risk.)

Markus,
I certainly do not want to turn this thread into another age difference debate but you do bring up an interesting angle.  I don't know if an age gap is a "risk" associated primarily with RW as opposed to AW, but the opportunity to marry a much younger woman seems to be a "benifit" mostly associated with RW. I have my own set of reasons why I think this happens more often than with AW, and it isonly partialy due to money IMO.

Congradulations on reaching 4 successful years of marriage too!
KenC

[KenC]

On a lighter note.. which "smart Alec" told FSU folk about Valentine's Day?! ... now we have International Women's Day AND this relatively new occasion to buy more flowers

I was the "mug" that turned up in Siberia on Feb 14th 2007 ( a surprise)  and couldn't find a table at a restaurant ... Her Mum had advised that they didn't celebrate this day in Russia ))))

Listening to what Mother-in-Law advises .. now THAT's a "risky business"....

Mark,
Blame Hallmark Greeting Cards!!!!  Valentine's Day is one of my pet peeves!  I have told Lena (as I did my first American wife) that I will never allow a blatant marketing promotion decide when I am going to express my love and affection to my woman.  I buy flowers, chocolates and dispense love notes through out the year at my own discretion.  The one day a year Lena is sure not to get any flowers etc is February 14th!
KenC

[steviej]

Markus,
Congratulations on your 4th anniversary!! My situation was similar to Ken's and definitely some good luck came my way as well, and things have worked out great (read: "So You Want a Younger Woman: True Confessions" in the Starting Out thread. That was basically my retrospective trip report that I didn't know was a trip report at the time I wrote it )

Reading Ken's list of risks now and understanding all this better now than I did then, would I do it differently? I think overall what Ken and I did was quite reasonable. We each knew our lady quite well from extensive letters and phone calls before meeting. We each had a long previous marriage under our belts, and I think we understood how to read our feelings and sense the feelings of the woman and the situation. That is, we were enthralled, but our eyes were open. The risk for a man is when he sees what he wants to see and feels what he wants to feel, instead of seeing and feeling what's there. From your letter I would say that you also sound like a guy who was in tune with what the real situation was.

There are guys that want so much to have that wonderful relationship and marriage with the wonderful Russian women they've heard so much about (as we all did, and do ) that these important sensors get turned off. So, outside of the logistical and legal risks, Ken's list of risks I thinks helps guys to remember: stay in touch with what's really happening, not with what you want-so-much to happen.

[OlgaH]

The risk for a man is when he sees what he wants to see and feels what he wants to feel, instead of seeing and feeling what's there.

The same risk is for a woman  More over the women are more liable to illusion of love than men 

[KenC]

The same risk is for a woman  More over the women are more liable to illusion of love than men 

Olga,
Can't say I agree with you, Dear.  All the men that get sucked "in" by those Russian accents and girls batting their eyes when their only agenda is to get to America would seem to me to tip the scales in favor of the men buying into the illusion rather than the women.  RW seem to be a rather pragmatic bunch to buy into too much fluff.
KenC

[OlgaH]

Ken, I agree with you that women  you have described are very pragmatic, but there are also other women, who would like to meet a man of their heart and what to love and to be beloved, and very often they have a chance to be a "victim" of Romeos of keyboards and also of some "Misters Visit many" who give a hope and "food" for illusions. What it cost? First of all emotional stress (also time and probably some finances). Do not fall in love with written words and promises, don't believe in everything that is written and said ... But how to communicate keeping distrust?       

[KenC]

Ken, I agree with you that women  you have described are very pragmatic, but there are also other women, who would like to meet a man of their heart and what to love and to be beloved, and very often they have a chance to be a "victim" of Romeos of keyboards and also of some "Misters Visit many" who give a hope and "food" for illusions. What it cost? First of all emotional stress (also time and probably some finances). Do not fall in love with written words and promises, don't believe in everything that is written and said ... But how to communicate keeping distrust?       

Olga,
I do see your point now.  I had not considered the guys that never show up or the guys that play the women along.  International dating is not for the faint of heart (or the naive)
KenC

[OlgaH]

International dating is not for the faint of heart (or the naive)

as it would be said by an adherent of traditional dating: "You must be too naive and infantile if you believe in finding your soul mate through the Internet" 

[Ooooops]

*off*

Olga, I really like your new avatar!   

[KenC]

*off*

Olga, I really like your new avatar!   

Oops,
I agree about Olga's photo.  She went from a school marm to a hottie!
KenC

[steviej]

Oops,
I agree about Olga's photo.  She went from a school marm to a hottie!
KenC

Beware .. Olga is a cyborg. She just got upgraded to V2.0   

[Ooooops]

Behave, you, boys!   

PS.   But Olga is definitely hot!   

[OlgaH]

Thanks guys   

Oh Ken, there was time in my working biography, at the beginning,  when I was a school marm. I was super school marm  I had perfect attendance and I really was impressed how the pupils and especially senior pupils, more over boys were interested in the World Art and Culture   

[steviej]

more over boys were interested in the World Art and Culture   

Boys have a great ability for "adaptive interest" in things when the realize their teacher is hot ...  I sitll remember the only English class where I ever finished all of the required reading .. hmmm ... I wonder why ... ?   

[msmoby_ru]

Ken, I agree with you that women  you have described are very pragmatic, but there are also other women, who would like to meet a man of their heart and what to love and to be beloved, and very often they have a chance to be a "victim" of Romeos of keyboards and also of some "Misters Visit many" who give a hope and "food" for illusions. What it cost? First of all emotional stress (also time and probably some finances). Do not fall in love with written words and promises, don't believe in everything that is written and said ... But how to communicate keeping distrust?       

Hi Olga! ( agree with others about the new avatar )

Your examples of the women's experience should be a lesson to all men about how to improve the chances of "success" ! I wish to illustrate two more examples of how some guys "spoil" the chances for those who follow.

True story - pretty RW, mid thirties, with a young kid (4,then ) got her own biz, car, apartment, speaks English well  - posts her profile on a dating site. This is 2004. She is a "10" in any man or woman's estimation ...no question.. I decided NOT to write, as she will be besieged with letters.. I visited FSU frequently for work reasons.. I forgot about her.. six months later.. I see the profile is still there- but HARDER - she has obviously just had a "bad" experience.. let her get over it, I think...you have no reason to visit her city, other than historical interest. It is one of the Hero cities. I am offered work near to that city - I decide to contact her .OH Boy! what a grilling I get. She REALLY makes sure I am single- calling my numbers (mobile/cell / home ) and irregular times - We meet at the hotel complex where I am working from - she IS a ten in real life - but highly suspicious.  "Why do you turn off your phone when you are with me?", etc.


I was suspicious of HER as she didn't want me to see her home, neighbourhood, daughter, etc - I finally confronted her - as I didn't appreciate her behaviour  - capricious - ( I'd never have met her if I was going to make a WOVO trip ) - then I understood WHY !

It transpires that a WM came to see her - she liked him but he was still VERY married - the wife tracked her down, called her at home.. asking if her husband was there - RW diesn't believe it, at first, but the WM convinces her .. using email ..She confronted the guy next day  by taking a call from the wife at an agreed time and the guy's (who had told his wife - "I'm on biz in Moscow" ) cover was blown...turns out he DID have biz in Mscow - but this lady wasn't in Moscow..



This lady and I didn't work out - we clicked - but I had very different ideas about my life plans than hers ..I learnt to assertain this before meeeting !  .. We parted amicably, and she kept in touch. A few months later I get a call -she has got her fingers burnt AGAIN- WM claimed he was divorced - flew to see her on the way to another country - and he disappeared afterwards- she didn't know why - and asked me to track him down - which was easy - he was still married, too He'd used a virtual land line number and prepaid sim !!

Now here's a lady who -if she's still on the dating scene - finds it hard to trust any man.

I'm sure her story isn't unique...

Mark

[steviej]

It transpires that a WM came to see her - she liked him but he was still VERY married -

Mark, I agree with you. This is one of those things that just burns my *ss! A certain percentage of married men seem to do this everywhere, and I don't know if there's anyway to prevent it. These guys are smooth operators, too. I met some on my own business trips (in USA). Guys I know that are married, but in another city they go into their completely unmarried act and try to establish relationships with girls. I don't mean just a "one night stand" either. I knew of a few guys that when they returned to home base, continued with their emails, phones calls, and future "business" visits to these girls. They were often able to keep this going for several months or more until the secret finally gets out somehow. It would get very elaborate - their plans to relocate their "business" to the girls city, when is the right time to meet "her" parents, they would go on and on without remorse. There are big opportunities for this abuse in the FSUW marriage pursuit game, and there are some wondeful ladies whose hopes have been raised, and dashed.

On the bright side, though, from my own experience, from discussions on internet boards and so on, it still seems to me that many very good AM men and FSU ladies are able to come together and make happy marriages. Despite the extremes on either end that cause heartache for everyone in their path (keyboard romeos, married "fiances", gold diggers, mule seekers, etc ) there seems to be a large group in the middle that continues to find success and happiness.

So for you newbies, this thread is FULL of good things to be aware of, but this is NOT a statistical measure of your chance for success. Keep your eyes open and you have a very good chance of establishing great relations with one of the many wonderful FSU ladies.

[steviej]

Behave, you, boys!   

PS.   But Olga is definitely hot!   

Hey Ooooops, when do we get to see your new HOT avatar ???? 

[Ooooops]

Hey Ooooops, when do we get to see your new HOT avatar ???? 

How about this?