Risky Business

[msmoby_ru]

I was and I was also addressing your total lack of ability or willingness to acknowledge that any view other than your own has some merit.

OMG - I've fallen foul of KenC ..  Well if it was TRUE what you say, I'd apologise and concede - but you just illustrated the very thing you accused me of ..

Suggest you calm down and re-read the post you are responding to again..  but here goes.. Gator who is now "silent" wrongly included WOVO as "perhaps" a reason for a possible failure - and later in the discussion I pointed out that the agency(s)  he [maxx] used reinforced my negative viewpoint concerning their "benefits".

I've already pointed out this was too sweeping .. that there are good agencies.. I cannot see that picking up Gator and "sticking to my guns" is "condescending" ..

In fact this coming from you is rather ironic Pots and Kettles?

[Gator]

I decided to back up a little on my story to the beginning of how I got this idea of finding a wife from the FSU.

That should be useful.  A man's mindset has a major influence on his decision making.

Also I have some unique understanding of how agencies work from a 'follow the money' perspective. Insider stuff that was given to me. I have never seen any of this on message boards. To me it is the second half of the puzzle of trying to figure out how and why they do what they do.

What is the first half?   

[Gator]

Gator who is now "silent"

I am silent because you are hopeless.

[msmoby_ru]

I am silent because you are hopeless.

Another "insult" rather than a reasoned  .. actually I was hopeful, you'd do better than that...

[KenC]

Msmoby,
It is a waste of time and energy to debate ideas with someone with a mind that is closed to ideas other than his own. 

You are right, you are always right and you will always be right.
Have a good day.
KenC

[Maxx2]

It was 10 months into my separation and during the divorce from my American wife that I first heard of Russian women as wives for Americans. It was November 2000 and I was driving east down highway 242 on the way to visit my sister in Wisconsin. I am listening to KSTP 1500 Saint Paul, Minnesota's talk radio station's "The Mischke broadcast". Tommy Mischke the host had a show that day on "Mail order brides" from Russia. I had never heard of such a thing before.

 He's some samples of his show but not of the broadcast I am referring to.

http://www.mischkemadness.com/audiofiles/the_ugly_american.mp3    
http://www.mischkemadness.com/audiofiles/stranger_in_a_strange_land.mp3
http://www.mischkemadness.com/audiofiles/hitler_in_the_south.mp3

Tommy was an interviewing a fellow named "Bob" that was hawking his book about how to find a Russian wife. He was using all the agency hype about Russian women knowing how to treat a man, being very appreciative of having a White Knight rescue them and that they liked to wear sexy clothes. Bob went into the low life expectancy of Russian men due to war and alcoholism. That available Russian men were mostly drunks that had no money. He talked about us American men on how we were desired by Russian women as husbands because we by Russian standards non-drinkers, rich, generous and knew how to treat a woman. The perfect match for each other. That American men that went over there were treated like Superstars. Bob went on to say that Russian women were not raised in a Victorian or Puritan culture and that they were not sexually repressed like their American counterparts here. He hinted that before he was married to his wonderful Russian wife he had enjoyed *wink* *wink* his visits there... Finally Bob got around to talking about American women. How American women insist on respect when they haven't earned it. How they let themselves go and gain allot of weight after they marry. How they have been so poisoned by modern feminism that American men need to act as Woody Allen said "In my house I'm the boss. My wife is just the decision maker." And if you want want to be happy for the rest of your life make a Russian woman your wife.

Mischke was playing this guy, "Bob, our news anchor Kelly has some questions she would like to ask you. Take it away Kelly". Kelly wasted no time, she went for Bob's throat or tried to. Her voice was dripping with sarcasm and hatred as she snarled and snapped at him calling him a hypocrite. How he was saying what wonderful women Russian women were but how easy they were to get into the sack. Bob calmly responded to each accusation. Kelly got angrier and angrier and resorted to name calling. Bob remained cool and collected. This really set her off and she was on the verge of losing it. I am thinking "Kelly, you're making his point. You are reminding the divorced men or the about to be divorce men as was in my case what we are fleeing from. Debate him but do so without the acid. It's painful to listen to".      

So I am listening to all of this trying to figure out what is what and to what degree what is said to be true and so on. What are the facts on this subject? So I make a mental note to myself that when I get back home to do an internet search on this subject.  


Maxx  
    

[Ronnie]

Maxx and others,

I'm not an apologist for AW by any means but I think that if a new phenomenon began wherein American women were to start going all ga-ga for, let's say, Argentinian men, saying how they were so much more romantic, attentive to their needs and loved to dance, we might ourselves have a negative gut reaction and try to combat it out of nothing more than a sense of pride. 
We might even try to push a phrase..."mail order husband."  Oh well.

While I'm rushing to the "defence" of others, I want to defend my blood-brother Mr. Moby.  Mark has moved on the agency issue.  Give him credit.  He's proven not to be closed minded.  If stubborn..well, hey, it's an Irish-British thing.  Thank God Churchill was stubborn!

Now Mark, I ask you to consider the rather powerful argument that has been made that in a WOVO situation, nice guys (something of which I myself have been falsely accused), may have a propensity to not say "see ya" when there has been a lot invested by the RW in the WOVO scenario. 

Not saying "see ya" might lead to his sweeping under the carpet, the character defects that he sees in her now, that could not be seen by writing or phone calls.  Those defects sometimes become visible when watching her interact with others, or her guard can be let down once she thinks the fish is in the boat. 

Can you not concede, Mark, there are glaring weaknesses in the WOVO approach?  I think you can.

[Maxx2]

Now Mark, I ask you to consider the rather powerful argument that has been made that in a WOVO situation, nice guys (something of which I myself have been falsely accused), may have a propensity to not say "see ya" when there has been a lot invested by the RW in the WOVO scenario. 

Not saying "see ya" might lead to his sweeping under the carpet, the character defects that he sees in her now, that could not be seen by writing or phone calls.  Those defects sometimes become visible when watching her interact with others, or her guard can be let down once she thinks the fish is in the boat. 

That was me in spades. I could NOT end a relationship and go on to the next one during the same visit. I would tough it out with the consequences of usually forgiving and giving them a second chance. The biggest mistake is marrying over there. Once that happens "wife loyalty" kicks in. It is virtually impossible to file a divorce or start an annulment especially while over there over some bad conduct or a maybe a "red flag" or two. I believe I would have no problem now "nexting" any woman over any red flag or bad conduct at any stage of the relationship or marriage. I'll get more into this later.

Maxx

[Maxx2]

I am considering opening a new thread about my story by cutting and pasting my posts here. But I will do that later when I complete it on this thread. I hate to think I will go through all this work and have it buried on pages 16 through 30 something on this thread.


Maxx

[Ronnie]

The biggest mistake is marrying over there. Once that happens "wife loyalty" kicks in. It is virtually impossible to file a divorce or start an annulment especially while over there over some bad conduct or a maybe a "red flag" or two. I believe I would have no problem now "nexting" any woman over any red flag or bad conduct at any stage of the relationship or marriage. I'll get more into this later.

Maxx

I agree with you on this as well.  The K1 appoach is much better at warding off mistakes than marrying there.  If one is ultra conservative/cautious (and who shouldn't be in this risk-laden endeavor?) he can wait until the end of the 90 days and even then delay filing for AOS until he feels completely comfortable.  I know there are those who argue that delaying can strengthen a case of abuse against him, but I'd take that risk over rushing anything in this process.

[BillyB]

Do you old timers here remember this guy? It's Facetrock and his fiancee Marina (I think that was her name).

About the time Marina was to come over Facetrock dissapeared from the message boards. I wonder if things had worked out and if they didn't if he didn't want to say.
 

I don't think he got married. I seen his profile on Freepersonals about last year or the year before and he disappeared about 3 years ago. Do the math. His fiancee and her family was reading all what he said at the other forum. He was a different man on the message boards after he got engaged and was insulting people such as turboguy and a few others when he disagreed with them. A side of him showed up that may have scared of his fiancee.

[Maxx2]

I don't think he got married. I seen his profile on Freepersonals about last year or the year before and he disappeared about 3 years ago. Do the math. His fiancee and her family was reading all what he said at the other forum. He was a different man on the message boards after he got engaged and was insulting people such as turboguy and a few others when he disagreed with them. A side of him showed up that may have scared of his fiancee.

He mentioned at RWG that he had been thrown in jail for being hotheaded with something involving his wife and a court order.  . 

Maxx 

[Ronnie]

While looks can be deceiving, Facetrock doesn't look like someone I'd be happy about my daughter going out with.  On the other hand, Marina looks angelic. 

Hey, I've been wrong before..why it happened just last...umm lemme see...musta been..oh yes....just 16 years ago now!   

[BillyB]

He mentioned at RWG that he had been thrown in jail for being hotheaded with something involving his wife and a court order.  . 

Maxx 

Maybe that scared off his fiancee.

While looks can be deceiving, Facetrock doesn't look like someone I'd be happy about my daughter going out with.  On the other hand, Marina looks angelic.

Facetrock owns a company that does concrete work and most concrete guys I know are as rough as they come after iron workers in the construction business. The important thing is where his heart is. Before he disappeared, he mention he was building a new house for his fiancee. It seemed like he cared about her sincerely. Although his fiancee looks like an angel, I was one of her biggest critics in the thread he started when he wrote she mentioned in letters and calls with him that she had scammed men before. Turned out to be a joke. Still the joke wasn't in good taste IMO to start a relationship.

[KenC]

Just FYI guys, I tried the number I had for Facetrock and it has been assigned to someone else.
KenC

[msmoby_ru]

Maxx and others,

While I'm rushing to the "defence" of others, I want to defend my blood-brother Mr. Moby.  Mark has moved on the agency issue.  Give him credit.  He's proven not to be closed minded.  If stubborn..well, hey, it's an Irish-British thing.  Thank God Churchill was stubborn!

Wow, support from a most  unexpected front ... stubborn, sure ...especially stubborn in the face of insupportable assertions !

Now Mark, I ask you to consider the rather powerful argument that has been made that in a WOVO situation, nice guys (something of which I myself have been falsely accused), may have a propensity to not say "see ya" when there has been a lot invested by the RW in the WOVO scenario.  

Hmm Ronnie: Firstly *I* think you are a "nice" guy ..

Secondly, I'd say your "powerful argument" was largely a myth.. I'm sure there'll be cases to the contrary quoted - but as with the whole WOVO v WMVM argument - I've not seen a killer punch delivered by either "side" .. more later ..

Not saying "see ya" might lead to his sweeping under the carpet, the character defects that he sees in her now, that could not be seen by writing or phone calls.  Those defects sometimes become visible when watching her interact with others, or her guard can be let down once she thinks the fish is in the boat. 

Speaking personally, the memory of rushing into a first marriage, that ended badly, ensured caution. I can't speak for other guys..  *I* had no problem saying "see ya".  I don't mean that to sound glib, either.

Can you not concede, Mark, there are glaring weaknesses in the WOVO approach?  I think you can.

Of course, Ronnie, no problem to do that ... "weakness" - you might luck out - having put all your eggs in one basket ... but the rewards were worth it.. ( for me).

Do you think the WMVM protagonists could do the same -admit the weaknesses of WMVM ..?

For *me* the former suited my character and I still think it offers the best chance of success.. for a man who is serious about marriage  ( and can afford the time to invest in their feelings / instincts) .. and it worked for *me* ..

But...and here's that stubbornness, again - we were discussing Maxx, and someone's "theory" that going on a WOVO - could have been a "mistake"....

[msmoby_ru]

Msmoby,
It is a waste of time and energy to debate ideas with someone with a mind that is closed to ideas other than his own. 

You are right, you are always right and you will always be right.
Have a good day.
KenC

OK, I left this a few days to "cool down" but I haven't changed my mind... I put it to you, that your advice is often bang on the button, but I think your courted your wife a long time ago and your expertise in the scene now is based on the experience of others.. a lot of things have changed...

You are just as passionate as me about things you believe in, so we're both going bang heads together...  I see no reason to "tip toe" around something or someone when I perceive wrong advice or conclusions..

I saw that in this thread.

[KenC]

OK, I left this a few days to "cool down" but I haven't changed my mind... I put it to you, that your advice is often bang on the button, but I think your courted your wife a long time ago and your expertise in the scene now is based on the experience of others.. a lot of things have changed...

My advice has nothing to do with how or when I courted my wife and for you to say this is only a weak attempt to confuse the essence of the conversation with facts that are irrelevant (as you are apt to do).  The "real" issue is if Maxx would have benefited from meeting more women than he did back 8 years ago.  This question was put directly to Maxx when I asked him:
"Do you think you would have benefited from meeting more RW?  Maybe taking a step back and casually dating a few women before jumping into an engagement?"
To which Maxx answered:
"It would be been best for me to have dated local women for a year or two before heading off to the FSU. I would have probably not gone over there after dating women here."
Now, Maxx' answer is not a perfect affirmation of Gator's suggestion that Maxx should have met more RW, but it pretty damn close to the spirit of what Gator meant (Maxx needed to date more women)

For you to make your condescending remarks to Gator is both ignorant and disrespectful, which is out of line considering the high level of respect Gator has earned here and his generally mild manners.

You are just as passionate as me about things you believe in, so we're both going bang heads together...  I see no reason to "tip toe" around something or someone when I perceive wrong advice or conclusions..

I saw that in this thread.

Yes, I am passionate but not closed minded as I believe you are.  You are so passionate about your WOVO that it blinds you to the real issues of threads like this one.  It wasn't about the virtues of WOVO vs WMVM, it was about Maxx and his situation.  A man ending a long term marriage with little or no dating skills.  Should a man in that situation marry the first or second woman he meets?  You would have to be a total idiot to think that!  Are you?
KenC

[Maxx2]

"Do you think you would have benefited from meeting more RW? 

I want to put this in my story but I will say it now. I committed myself to my future ex within 2 months of meeting her on January 5th 2002. This was 10 days after the final on my divorce (I was separated for 2 years)  On my second visit on February 14th, 2002 I got engaged. On the third visit we married on March 26th, 2002 at ZAGS. During my next visits in April, October and January of 2003 I met other Russian women as a couple. I noticed that I was attracted more to some of them than my wife (of course this could be because I'm part Italian  ) and that I enjoyed talking with some of them more that I did my wife. I am being very honest here. It did occur to me at that time that I may have chosen a different woman than the woman I had married if I had met others before her. But I was married and I said to myself that "I made my bed now I should lay in it" and look for the positives in my wife and in my situation. That "I married a beautiful, funny, lively character and I should be greatful to have such a wife". But I knew in my heart I could have found a more beautiful (if that is really important) woman but more importantly someone whom I could have had a soul connection with. I knew that I was like so many men who marry someone that they attracted to and get along with and that's about all. Does this make sense? Besides if I changed my mind right after I married her, quicky divorced her and went after another woman I would be like Charles Groden in this clip



Maxx

   

[Misha]

I met other Russian women as a couple. I noticed that I was attracted more to some of them than my wife (of course this could be because I'm part Italian  ) and that I enjoyed talking with some of them more that I did my wife. I am being very honest here. It did occur to me at that time that I may have chosen a different woman than the woman I had married if I had met others before her.

Been there, done that with my ex. If only we listened and acted upon our intuition more often, it would certainly save us a lot of grief.

[KenC]

I want to put this in my story but I will say it now. I committed myself to my future ex within 2 months of meeting her on January 5th 2002. This was 10 days after the final on my divorce (I was separated for 2 years)  On my second visit on February 14th, 2002 I got engaged. On the third visit we married on March 26th, 2002 at ZAGS. During my next visits in April, October and January of 2003 I met other Russian women as a couple. I noticed that I was attracted more to some of them than my wife (of course this could be because I'm part Italian  ) and that I enjoyed talking with some of them more that I did my wife. I am being very honest here. It did occur to me at that time that I may have chosen a different woman than the woman I had married if I had met others before her. But I was married and I said to myself that "I made my bed now I should lay in it" and look for the positives in my wife and in my situation. That "I married a beautiful, funny, lively character and I should be greatful to have such a wife". But I knew in my heart I could have found a more beautiful (if that is really important) woman but more importantly someone whom I could have had a soul connection with. I knew that I was like so many men who marry someone that they attracted to and get along with and that's about all. Does this make sense? Besides if I changed my mind right after I married her, quicky divorced her and went after another woman I would be like Charles Groden in this clip



Maxx

   

Maxx,
Thank you for your honesty and frankness.  What you did was marry a woman that you thought was "good enough" but not necessarily the "best woman for you".  A common "rookie" mistake.  I am forever appreciative of the years I sent as a bachelor before I ventured to Russia.  There is no way I could have handled myself as I did without the years of dating experience before I went over.  We all make mistakes, and I had my fair share of them, but fortunately they were little mistakes and not as devastating as some others.

BTW, "The Heartbreak Kid" was one of my favort movies.  I know they made a remake of it recently but it bombed and I have yet to see it.
KenC

[Gator]

Maxx,

Fascinating.  You have always been candid and forthright with us, and I appreciate such style very much.  I am certain that telling your story for these past five years has helped many men avoid the same mistake.

[Gator]

OK, I left this a few days to "cool down"

Mark, if you got so worked up that you had to leave to cool off, you are taking this way too seriously.   

Discussion here should be like a gentleman’s social club with lady members.  Come here after work, sit down, have a drink, relax, share some discussion and go home to the wifey. 

I can not do that at my golf club or the vintner's club because they don't know diddly-squat about the mystique of RW and could care less.  In fact a RW wife sort of makes me the oddball to some. 


On rare times, wives and girlfriends are insulted and that is a time to get worked up.  But not over an issue such as whether to stay in an apartment or hotel.   So relax and enjoy yourself.

Your attitude does seem friendlier now and I appreciate that.

[msmoby_ru]

My advice has nothing to do with how or when I courted my wife and for you to say this is only a weak attempt to confuse the essence of the conversation with facts that are irrelevant (as you are apt to do). 

No Ken, it is very relevant and this is no "weak attempt" to confuse anything.  Your advice is based on what ? Your experience ... and what you read here - you've been married for a long time.. How are you "qualified" to dismiss my input?   How long ago it was in a vastly changed scene is quite relevant..
 

The "real" issue is if Maxx would have benefited from meeting more women than he did back 8 years ago.  This question was put directly to Maxx when I asked him:
"Do you think you would have benefited from meeting more RW?  Maybe taking a step back and casually dating a few women before jumping into an engagement?"
To which Maxx answered:
"It would be been best for me to have dated local women for a year or two before heading off to the FSU. I would have probably not gone over there after dating women here."
Now, Maxx' answer is not a perfect affirmation of Gator's suggestion that Maxx should have met more RW, but it pretty damn close to the spirit of what Gator meant (Maxx needed to date more women)


For you to make your condescending remarks to Gator is both ignorant and disrespectful, which is out of line considering the high level of respect Gator has earned here and his generally mild manners.

Ken, for the umpteenth time, I interceded when Gator claimed a possible reason for failure was going to meet ONE woman. You and Gator and some others,  seem to think that meeting many women would have been better - I'm saying that is not necessarily true. Some guys WANT to write to a few ladies and filter down to one they click with - they don't WANT to meet lot's of ladies within a few days - it is surreal - hard to be objective - we do want Maxx to succeed .. to be objective, right ?   

This is a board for guys to hoping to find or already with FSUW ... some are here to learn, some to offer advic and some can actually do both - Ironically, whilst you are accusing me of being the one with the "closed mind" and muddying the waters, I'm feeling you should look closer to home ! I have challenged Gator to see the possibility of his assertion being worng for Maxx and he hasn't .. Gator then perfers to discuss my character rather than  debate... are you doing the same, too ?!   

We all want to help Maxx - I don't think Gator was correct in his assertion. Now, your repeatedley suggesting I have a closed mind -whislt I point reasoned assertion for my differing PoV rather suggests I might not be the one with that problem..

 Now I could understand folk getting upset if my PoV was demonstrably wrong - but reading Maxx's coherent posts I reckon he is a trusting sort of guy and likes to "commit" to monogomous courtship.. seeing lots of FSUW on a trip might not be his style ?..... Meeting more than one woman on a trip may not be what will help him to be successful.

 

Yes, I am passionate but not closed minded as I believe you are. 

Sorry, Ken, I believe I've countered that - saying someone has a closed mind - when they are putting an alternative viewpoint - with reasoned responses, is just the last refuge of someone who is probably guilty of the very same thing... especially, when their advice is based on non current scene data.

You are so passionate about your WOVO that it blinds you to the real issues of threads like this one. 

Nice try, to discredit, but it won't work ... read on please

It wasn't about the virtues of WOVO vs WMVM, it was about Maxx and his situation. 

Ken I can assure you I knew that - you just assumed, quite wrongly, that this was my "agenda"..

I have learnt in my short time here to see that there isn't one methodology that is "superior" - it's what suits one's charaacter and that of the lady you seek..

A man ending a long term marriage with little or no dating skills.  Should a man in that situation marry the first or second woman he meets?  You would have to be a total idiot to think that!  Are you?
KenC

There you go again..  !

The first or second women Maxx meets could be the one - I contend it is his character - his nature, that has allowed him to enter into marriages with incompatible ladies - meeting more women can't "help" -  meeting the right one can ...  Maxx could meet many ladies and still chose one that wasn't right for him.

I'm surprised you can't see that and that merely offering a different viewpoint than yours should blind you to such a degree.

     

[msmoby_ru]

Mark, if you got so worked up that you had to leave to cool off, you are taking this way too seriously.   

Tut, tut Gator  -  I wasn't the only one "worked" up - and *I* was the one who "backed off" ..

I take offering a guy like Maxx advice very seriously ..  hence my entering the "fray" when you offered what I STILL believe to be incorrect advice to suit him... 

Discussion here should be like a gentleman’s social club with lady members.  Come here after work, sit down, have a drink, relax, share some discussion and go home to the wifey. 

Except that Maxx is looking for a good wife to gome home to and is receiving (IMHO) lousy advice from the smug guys who are already "members"

I can not do that at my golf club or the vintner's club because they don't know diddly-squat about the mystique of RW and could care less.  In fact a RW wife sort of makes me the oddball to some. 

What has your worrying / or not, about what others think about your wife, got to do with your "incorrect" ( IMHO) assertion that you offered to Maxx as a possible reason for "failure" ?!

On rare times, wives and girlfriends are insulted and that is a time to get worked up.  But not over an issue such as whether to stay in an apartment or hotel.   So relax and enjoy yourself.

Yep, I knew it - as is so often the case with your good self - you can't even remember the topic...  but in this case it wasn't concerning staying in apartments or hotels

Your attitude does seem friendlier now and I appreciate that.

Oh, dear... I think I may have disappointed" you - but when you -finally - respond to the point I took you up on, it will be interesting to discuss it further

You put a smile on my face, Gator - thanks !


[/quote]