Risky Business

[Ronnie]

Ronnie you are just pis$ed off at me because I proved that you doubts in my innocence were incorrect. Now you seek to destroy my credibility in anyway you can. I am through with you.
Maxx

Yep.  I am upset at you Maxx.  But the reason you give for it is bogus and you know it.  I don't care if you shoved her or didn't shove her.  Makes absolutely no difference to me.  I'm thinking Elvira came here with, like many (dare I say "most") K1s, that is on a wing and prayer that the man she barely knows will turn out to be a good man that she can love, though she knew she didn't love him at the time she accepted his proposal. 

I only vaguely remember your real time accounts in RWG years ago...the details are lost and I have no interest in reviewing them.  I'm suggesting that that Elvira may have panicked and didn't give the relationship a chance to work out and for her to fall in love.  Maybe you pressed her for expressions of affection she was too confused to make and she sought a way out of the snare she voluntarily walked into.

So Maxx, I'm no defender of RW...many of them are despicable and condemn themselves by their own words and attitudes on this board and elsewhere.  But I've got a thing for facts and truth and something's telling me we haven't gotten it from you in not only your own story but the fairy tales you post as e-mails from "victims".

Saying you're not going to respond to me further only adds to the disbelief.

[Maxx2]

Today was the 5 year anniversary of that terrible day. I do not care to be a subject of that inquiry any more.



Maxx

[Jack]

I'm thinking Elvira came here with, like many (dare I say "most") K1s, that is on a wing and prayer that the man she barely knows will turn out to be a good man that she can love, though she knew she didn't love him at the time she accepted his proposal. 

I'll never forget the first time I heard what I am about to tell you guys. And then after I heard it a second time, and a third time I realized this was in fact probably the way it was most the time.


Svetlana was a young, pretty lady I had met at an Anastasia social in 1997. I knew she was too young for me but while talking to her I could tell she was quite educated and interesting. She could be a good friend. We exchanged contact information. We stayed in touch. On my next trip I met her father and sister. You know how we hear that all these Russian/Ukraine men are bad, drink to much, cheat on their wife's?  Well, yes this does happen but by no means are all Russian/Ukraine men this way. Their are many fine, loving, caring fathers and faithful husbands. Svetlana's dad was one such man.

A few months had past and Svetlana had sent me an e-mail and told me she had met this one man from New Mexico and he was crazy about her and she kind of liked him, might marry him. But she was a little unsure of a few things he had told her and she asked for my help. I started doing a little investigation and after a few weeks we realized that this man had told Svetlana a lot of things that were not true about himself. She quickly ended this relationship.

Fast forward some 6 to 8 months later and Svetlana tells me about this man named Bill.  Bill was from Pennsylvania. About 10-12 years older than Svetlana. Svetlana told me about Bill, sent me his photo, told me what he did for a living and asked me what I thought about Bill. I told her he seems to be ok.  Then Svetlana said "I think I am going to marry him".  I said Svetlana, you hardly know this man (he had visited her a couple of times) what do you mean you think your going to marry him.  And Svetlana said "I think I can fall in love with this man".    That was the first time I had heard that expression, but not the last.

With all ladies I met and I knew were not going to be my wife I wanted to keep and maintain a friendship, after all friends of friends is a fantastic way to meet many good Russian women.  When I had heard a second Russian woman who was thinking about marrying a man she had just met tell me "I think I can fall in love with him" I remembered hearing those same words from Svetlana. And then when I heard a third Russian women tell me almost the same thing it was then, the light bulb went on, many (most) of these Russian and Ukraine women know very little about the man she is thinking of marriage. Unlike a normal relationship where she would have time to get to know a local Russian man, this was not the case with foreign men. These ladies knew they would not have the amount of time they would like to have to know this person and as such many used their gut instinct. Could they fall in love with this man over time?

I think when most women say yes to getting engaged, yes to a K-1 visa, they are not in love, very few will be in love, but they have to feel they can fall in love with this man.




P.S.
Svetlana and Bill moved to Houston Texas and have been married close to 10 years now.

[HiTech]

Ronnie: I now have a new question regarding DV and INS/USCIS.  I believe we both agree that the only legal item in maxx's case is that a judge found enough evidence to issue a restraining order of max not going near his wife.

It is also appears to me that in the finding of fact, the judge wanted to do what he thought should be done, "Issue an restraining order on the side of caution" and at the same time do his best to not prejudice later civil findings arising from the up and cumming divorce.

Now I am wondering , what level of evidence of DV is needed by the INS? Is a restraining order enough of a finding of fact for them to issue that order?

Ronnie while I believe it is a good deal to point out facts from hyperbola. Your guessing about Maxx's ex RW has no foundation , and is only pure conjecture. We both can glean a lot about maxx's thought process from his writing. But we can not know a lot about his ex wife, because we are only seeing her though maxx's eyes.


Ronnie also regardless if maxx uses incorrect terms, he does server to put a little fear into people, and help them view the possible bad side of looking over seas.

And as Jack says about "I think I can fall in love with this man", I would venture to say this a very very common occurrence, and have heard the same many many times. I also have found that the term Engaged can mean something very different to FSUW. It believe it means something more like "I now agree to seriously consider marring you".


HiTech

[Shadow]

It is interesting to see how some people decide to use their natural inquisitive attitude to 'play down' the story of Maxx.
We very seldom get the 'other side' of any story. In this case I hope that those who wish to discuss will first read up on all the old threads, or wait until Maxx disclosed his full story.
Nobody is without error, but there is little doubt in my mind that the divorce of Maxx was inevitable, and things could have gotten worse for him.

[KenC]

Nice post Jack.

It has always been a guessing game to really understand when infatuation truly turns into love.  I am pretty sure it doesn't happen in a week.    So much of this venture is betting against the odds.  Does she love me?  Do I love her?  Is it me she wants or is it just entry into America?  Hell, it is almost like Vegas!  Some very few come home winners, but we rarely here about all the guys that crapped out.

Maxx mentioned the movie "Heartbreak Kid" and it is very appropriate to this discussion.  For those of you that have not seen the Ben Stiller movie from last year or the Charles Grodin original in 1972 the plot is:
"A newlywed man who believes he's just gotten hitched to the perfect woman encounters another lady on his honeymoon."

The new bride's many flaws start to be exposed during the honeymoon as well as the mistake of rushing into marriage.  BTW, in real life this can work either way!

Lena has at least 3 fsu girlfriends that fall into the category of women "hoping" to fall in love after a decent guys brought them over on K-1's.  All 3 are currently single and the original guy is long gone from the picture.  Were they GRG?  Not really, because they sincerely wanted to try to make their marriages work.  But you know the old saying "easy come, easy go"?  It applies here too.

No one has a crystal ball and can forsee the future of any relationship.  In truth all relationships change after marriage.  Some for the better and some for the worse.  The only "insurance" one can have is time.  The more time you spend together as a couple, the closer to reality your relationship assumptions will be.
KenC

[KenC]

Ronnie: I now have a new question regarding DV and INS/USCIS.  I believe we both agree that the only legal item in maxx's case is that a judge found enough evidence to issue a restraining order of max not going near his wife.

It is also appears to me that in the finding of fact, the judge wanted to do what he thought should be done, "Issue an restraining order on the side of caution" and at the same time do his best to not prejudice later civil findings arising from the up and cumming divorce.

Now I am wondering , what level of evidence of DV is needed by the INS? Is a restraining order enough of a finding of fact for them to issue that order?

Ronnie while I believe it is a good deal to point out facts from hyperbola. Your guessing about Maxx's ex RW has no foundation , and is only pure conjecture. We both can glean a lot about maxx's thought process from his writing. But we can not know a lot about his ex wife, because we are only seeing her though maxx's eyes.


Ronnie also regardless if maxx uses incorrect terms, he does server to put a little fear into people, and help them view the possible bad side of looking over seas.

And as Jack says about "I think I can fall in love with this man", I would venture to say this a very very common occurrence, and have heard the same many many times. I also have found that the term Engaged can mean something very different to FSUW. It believe it means something more like "I now agree to seriously consider marring you".

HiTech

Good post HiTech!
I have to agree that some of the fsu women do seem to have the attitude you expressed that I bolded.  But is this a cultural thing?  Or is it an attitude developed by being associated with a marriage agency?
KenC

[Shadow]

Good post HiTech!
I have to agree that some of the fsu women do seem to have the attitude you expressed that I bolded.  But is this a cultural thing?  Or is it an attitude developed by being associated with a marriage agency?
KenC

I believe it is an attitude that comes from little face-to-face time and long distance relationships.  A guy can tell a girl he will marry her if she gets the K-1 visa and they can live together in the US. For the girl that sounds like something in the distant future. The business-like attitude that seems to surround some guys will contribute to this.

[HiTech]

But is this a cultural thing?  Or is it an attitude developed by being associated with a marriage agency?

I believe it is a cultural thing. The concept we have of an Engagement, really is not in the FSU history. Simple things like engagement ring is a western concept.  My guess is that backing out before the wedding is not considered a very big deal in the FSU.

[BC]

I believe it is an attitude that comes from little face-to-face time and long distance relationships.  A guy can tell a girl he will marry her if she gets the K-1 visa and they can live together in the US. For the girl that sounds like something in the distant future. The business-like attitude that seems to surround some guys will contribute to this.

Shadow,

I think WM are 'in lust' and RW 'cautiously optimistic' at the time they immigrate, unless a long period of face to face time has been invested.  - thinking along the lines of Scott, jb, KenC that (I believe?) spent much time together before pulling the trigger, immigrated or were married.

I guess we spent probably 3 months together before marrying, but that true 'love' evolved a couple of years down the road. - takes a while to get over that hormonal 'high'.

It is interesting that when I used to ask my wife if she loved me I would get a reaction as if I had doubts about her love and commitment.  Gave that up long ago.

The word 'Love' is quite hard  to define, almost to the point you cannot use it in real or absolute terms.  Seems the bug has bit me too as I now find the term commitment, in practical terms more meaningful.

A loving commitment... yeah that's it.

[groovlstk]

Good post HiTech!
I have to agree that some of the fsu women do seem to have the attitude you expressed that I bolded.  But is this a cultural thing?  Or is it an attitude developed by being associated with a marriage agency?
KenC

I met my share of women who had this attitude and I believe it would have been a grave error to have pulled the trigger and filed a K1. Most were decent and beautiful women who seemed to genuinely like me, which made matters all the more confusing.

I also believe that blaming such behavior on cultural differences or the reality of little face time may be accurate to some degree, but no one will ever convince me that an element of desperation is also at play.

[steviej]

Shadow,

I think WM are 'in lust' and RW 'cautiously optimistic' at the time they immigrate, unless a long period of face to face time has been invested.  - thinking along the lines of Scott, jb, KenC that (I believe?) spent much time together before pulling the trigger, immigrated or were married.

I guess we spent probably 3 months together before marrying, but that true 'love' evolved a couple of years down the road. - takes a while to get over that hormonal 'high'.

It is interesting that when I used to ask my wife if she loved me I would get a reaction as if I had doubts about her love and commitment.  Gave that up long ago.

The word 'Love' is quite hard  to define, almost to the point you cannot use it in real or absolute terms.  Seems the bug has bit me too as I now find the term commitment, in practical terms more meaningful.

A loving commitment... yeah that's it.

Wise words here from BC, KenC, HiTech, Shadow, Jack ... gives me things to remember and think about. Maybe many marriages, domestic and foreign, have these elements in them, and we hope for the best. There's an old joke that a man marries the woman he lusts after, and the woman marries the man she thinks "gives her enough to work with" and make him into the man she wants, or thinks he should be. There may even be something ancient in our genes about it. It seems all girls dream about someday the prince on the white horse. But what is this prince? It is someone by outward appearances is someone "she thinks she could fall in love with." How many times in legends have we gone back after 2 years to see how well the prince and the woman he obsconded with are still happy or not?

And is it still intriguing that marriages where folks lived together first have a higher divorce rate than those who didn't. And what does this mean? It means no matter what, its not just about knowing each other "really really well."

And isn't there an irresistable romantic element in all this? As BC says "I think WM are 'in lust' and RW 'cautiously optimistic'  has a lot of truth to it. And for each at that moment in that situation, isn't there the wonderful prospect of romantic hope being realized? There is some of this too for sure in domestic marriages (after all, they have 50% divorce rate, let us not forget), but perhaps more in international marriage. When I look back, I savor the exquisite romanticism of how my wife and I met, the nature of our courtship and marriage. Soooo ......  juicy !!!!! Didn't you guys just love it??   And I was fortunate, our hope for growing love worked out fine.

[KenC]

I believe it is a cultural thing. The concept we have of an Engagement, really is not in the FSU history. Simple things like engagement ring is a western concept.  My guess is that backing out before the wedding is not considered a very big deal in the FSU.

I wonder if some of the ladies here can give some input on this?  Do women in the fsu take "engagements" so casually?  Or is it a serious commitment in the fsu?

I met my share of women who had this attitude and I believe it would have been a grave error to have pulled the trigger and filed a K1. Most were decent and beautiful women who seemed to genuinely like me, which made matters all the more confusing.

I also believe that blaming such behavior on cultural differences or the reality of little face time may be accurate to some degree, but no one will ever convince me that an element of desperation is also at play.

Groov,
Just so I understand what you said here, you think there was an element of desperation when your wife accepted your engagement?

I think that with the women that are in desperate situations, they are able to do just about anything to improve there future.  But there are certain women that are not in desperate situations and there by desperation is not a factor in their decision making process.
KenC

[steviej]

I wonder if some of the ladies here can give some input on this?  Do women in the fsu take "engagements" so casually?  Or is it a serious commitment in the fsu?Groov,
Just so I understand what you said here, you think there was an element of desperation when your wife accepted your engagement?

Good point Ken. And even if a woman is more "desparate", (which is very pejorative, IMO - to both the man and woman), that doesn't mean she is not choosing a man "she thinks she can fall in love with" and she, and him, are hoping for the same we all hope for.

[BC]

Groov,
Just so I understand what you said here, you think there was an element of desperation when your wife accepted your engagement?

Expectations and desperation are two different creatures.

The women going to agencies probably either have:

Expectations that are not being met..

or

Desperation because little choice is left..

The tricky part is to find a way to tell the difference.

(this all theoretical because I ain't been there or done that.)

My impression is that the first category is probably decreasing rapidly, and the second maybe only slightly.  The resulting mix?.. well I'll leave that up to others to chip in their recent experiences.

[groovlstk]

I wonder if some of the ladies here can give some input on this?  Do women in the fsu take "engagements" so casually?  Or is it a serious commitment in the fsu?Groov,
Just so I understand what you said here, you think there was an element of desperation when your wife accepted your engagement?

Ken, I was referring to a class of women that Jack and Ronnie cited above, girls who are essentially decent but willing to marry a foreign guy they like and trust with the hope that "like" will turn to love and things will work out.

One of the things that really appealed to me when I met my wife was that she had absolutely no desire to leave Moscow and that she spent time with me during our courtship only because she enjoyed it. If I'd dropped the ball or didn't meet her expectations I know she would have said goodbye.

I'll also say this: When I was meeting and dating in the FSU, I had relationships with at least four women who I know would have accepted my marriage proposal, even though they didn't really know me. At the time I thought I was pretty savvy about this process (read: cynical) yet still I arrogantly refused to accept that these girls were, in part, motivated by desperation. Two were over 30 and wanted children and probably thought their prospects were poor for finding a husband, at least one lived a difficult life of 16-hour workdays to make ends meet - all genuinely human issues that could, in their view, be resolved by marriage to a decent guy. Where did love fit in all that? Well, I believe it was something to hope for but not top priority.

Still, as self-deceived as I was, something just didn't feel right in such relationships and my uneasiness manifested itself in odd ways - by making these women jump through hoops during our courtship. I'm certainly not proud of my behavior... but I was motivated by some doubt within - I guess as easy as it was to deceive my brain, my heart was still holding out. Also, these women were all too willing to appease me, which ironically turned me off.

I don't understand enough about human dynamics to explain this further, but when I met my wife for the first time I instantly understood that I could never behave this way with her. It's difficult to explain it because at first glance most guys will probably think I was p*ssywhipped and was simply afraid to lose her. But frankly we had more fights and disagreements in our first few weeks together than I experienced in all of the previous relationships w/FSU women put together, and before we got engaged we both, at different times, walked away from the relationship. In retrospect it was the healthiest thing in the world, two people falling in love yet with enough self-respect to refuse to be doormats.

[KenC]

Groov,
First of all I would like to apologize for the way I worded my question to you.  After I posted it, it seemed to be a bit rude, but I assure you that was not my intention.

Over the years I have come to the conclusion that a relationship amongst equals are usually the strongest.  Unfortunately, in a relationship of "equals" there is also a power dynamic going on that does result in some conflicts.  Just because a relationship doesn't have even an occasional conflict, doesn't mean that both parties are content.  This is my view after spending way too many years in a "conflict free" marriage where neither of us were truly happy.
KenC

[Blues Fairy]

"Woman enters into marriage hoping her man will change; and he never does.
Man enters into marriage expecting his woman will never change; and she always does."

I should mention one thing about the upbringing of many Russian girls.  In many families, girls are told that in marriage, it's not important to love the guy; the most important thing is that HE loves you.  Hence, I believe, the tendency to accept marriage (and it happens between RW and RM, too!) even when no keen feelings have yet developed, just trusting the man's passion and professed readiness to do whatever it takes, etc.  Of course the passion and readiness wears out in a year or so, and the woman is left with the as-is, or sometimes worse.  

Also note that a man willing and ready to marry is still a rare beast in Russia; most prefer to avoid official marriage and their girls have to press on them to get things moving in that direction.  Therefore, as their mammas say, "He wants to marry you - what else do you want?!"

[groovlstk]

Groov,
First of all I would like to apologize for the way I worded my question to you.  After I posted it, it seemed to be a bit rude, but I assure you that was not my intention.

Ken, no need to apologize, I know you well enough that I instantly understood the gist of your question and never took it as an insult, since it did seem I was painting with a wide brush 

[Lily]

I wonder if some of the ladies here can give some input on this?  Do women in the fsu take "engagements" so casually?  Or is it a serious commitment in the fsu?Groov,
Just so I understand what you said here, you think there was an element of desperation when your wife accepted your engagement?
 

It seems to me that people in the FSU used not to give an engagement such a big weight as it is in the West. My understanding of an engagement in Russia would be the moment when the couple applies at the respective office with an intention to marry, right? The state office gives to the couple a few weeks time to think their decision again, and sets up a registration date. I have read reports from the state offices that a number of couple never came back on a set day to register their marriage. Apparently an application to marry would really not be a big deal. Also I never heard of engagement rings in Russia.

Other women may have different experiences and opinions, however.

[Blues Fairy]

Still, as self-deceived as I was, something just didn't feel right in such relationships and my uneasiness manifested itself in odd ways ...
Also, these women were all too willing to appease me, which ironically turned me off.

Very interesting.

I guess when someone is so much into you they don't even take pains to get to know you better, it gives us an impression that they tend to load the responsibility for the relationship entirely on you and become dependent on your assessment of the situation.  That's quite uncomfortable. You were lucky not to be blinded by adoration to discern this discomfort.
 
I, too, always preferred someone who would not love me blindly, thus making me accountable for all that happens to him, but rather get to know me very well and judge me objectively.  If I managed to make a person like that still fall in love with me, it was worth infinitely more than a blind all-accepting puppy love (which tends to assume very ugly forms in time, BTW).   

[BC]

"Woman enters into marriage hoping her man will change; and he never does.
Man enters into marriage expecting his woman will never change; and she always does."

I should mention one thing about the upbringing of many Russian girls.  In many families, girls are told that in marriage, it's not important to love the guy; the most important thing is that HE loves you.

I've seen quite a few (and some unfortunate) situations that seem to indicate that women can often be more 'in control' or 'functional' in situations dealing with overwhelming emotions.

It seems to me that people in the FSU used not to give an engagement such a big weight as it is in the West.

Lily,

Is there in your opinion  any differences in 'weight' between Zags and Church cermonies?

Is nice to see you ladies chipping in.

[KenC]

"Woman enters into marriage hoping her man will change; and he never does.
Man enters into marriage expecting his woman will never change; and she always does."

I should mention one thing about the upbringing of many Russian girls.  In many families, girls are told that in marriage, it's not important to love the guy; the most important thing is that HE loves you.  Hence, I believe, the tendency to accept marriage (and it happens between RW and RM, too!) even when no keen feelings have yet developed, just trusting the man's passion and professed readiness to do whatever it takes, etc.  Of course the passion and readiness wears out in a year or so, and the woman is left with the as-is, or sometimes worse.  

Also note that a man willing and ready to marry is still a rare beast in Russia; most prefer to avoid official marriage and their girls have to press on them to get things moving in that direction.  Therefore, as their mammas say, "He wants to marry you - what else do you want?!"

Wow!  This is very important information as I see it.  Thanks for sharing Blues Fairy.
KenC

[steviej]

"Woman enters into marriage hoping her man will change; and he never does.
Man enters into marriage expecting his woman will never change; and she always does."

Good !! Very Funny - and with some truth or it wouldn't be funny


I should mention one thing about the upbringing of many Russian girls.  In many families, girls are told that in marriage, it's not important to love the guy; the most important thing is that HE loves you.  

Yes, BF, I've heard my wife say something similar to that (in effect) and I've heard her mother say that to her younger sister. In fact, in our marriage, there was a change after about 1.5- 2 years. We had been happy, and I was very happy. But then, things just started to get, how can I say, more and more incredible? It was like she was just opening up more than she ever had before, and passion .... oohh my ....  About 6 months later we were talking one time and I commented on how our marriage just seems to get better and better. She said to me that after about 2 years, she really really knew for sure that I truly loved her for who she was, and not just because she's beautiful and fun. That opened my eyes up quite a bit because to me, of course, I had always been sincere. And she believed it. But there still was a little place inside her that was kind of "waiting" for all the final proofs of daily life to confirm everything. She's a very conservative girl, and I would say in many ways a typical conservative Russian girl.

[KenC]

Steve,
Great story, dude.  You are one of the lucky ones that found the right girl for you.  Me too!  Lena's late "revelation" wasn't about my love for her as she bought that from the beginning, but it was regarding my faithfulness.  Her Mom had drilled it into her head that "all men cheat."  Not some, not most, but all men! :hairraising:  I think it was only a few years ago when it dawned on Lena that her Mom was wrong.  At least wrong about me!  All I could do is laugh and shake my head!
KenC