Risky Business

[Ooooops]

Meaning that the way the law is structured without the legal checks and protective balances in place both innocent and guilty get crushed.

I can't read minds of other people, so I don't know what did they mean.   I said that it's bad that law gets abused, but there should be some law protecting victims of DV.   If you, guys, don't like the existing one then why don't you write to your senators and try to change it?   

[BillyB]

   If you, guys, don't like the existing one then why don't you write to your senators and try to change it?   

Too many people like it. It looks good on paper but not many will see the  results. Innocent men have been found guilty. A woman can fear a man and he will be convicted of DV. No physical evidence required. A woman can call 911 on her man and he will be taken to jail. No physical evidence required.

Most everyone is for protecting the women in their lives, mothers, wives, sisters, and daughters but to start creating laws that label innocent men guilty is very wrong too.

Recently in America, there are more single women not married than there are married. I suspect unfavorable laws and divorce awards have scared men from getting married. They have the attitude of "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?".

No doubt in my mind that the institution of marriage is being threaten by those feminist endorsed laws.

[steviej]

I can't read minds of other people, so I don't know what did they mean.   I said that it's bad that law gets abused, but there should be some law protecting victims of DV.   If you, guys, don't like the existing one then why don't you write to your senators and try to change it?   

Ooops, as with most of your comments, there is some good truth to what you say. The problem is two things: first, American men are just too tired and busy these days to organize politically. According to recent statistics, American men are now the hardest working men of any industrialized country in the world - meaning working more hours at higher stress levels than in any other country. (Ah, the joys of pure capitalism). Secondly, the American feminists are extremely well organized and very shrewd at manipulating the political system for their aims. There is no such awareness or organization for men to counterbalance any of this.

[steviej]

My guess stevej had Anastassia's comments in mind when he wrote

The way the law is structured and the rewards to take unfair advantage of it make it a guarantee that massive fraud will exist.

Maxx2 - you have stated the case very well - good! Yes, this "double think" among women permeates this discussion.

[Ooooops]

Innocent men have been found guilty.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it happen with other charges as well, not related to DV?   That's why there are trials, lawyers, jury, judges and etc exist - to decide who's guilty and who's not. 

[Ooooops]

The problem is two things: first, American men are just too tired and busy these days to organize politically.  Secondly, the American feminists are extremely well organized and very shrewd at manipulating the political system for their aims. There is no such awareness or organization for men to counterbalance any of this.

Well, I'm sorry but who's to blame then?       If you want something done, do it yourself.     If you delegate responsibilities to others then you might not like the outcome. 

[steviej]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it happen with other charges as well, not related to DV?   That's why there are trials, lawyers, jury, judges and etc exist - to decide who's guilty and who's not. 

No. This appalling lack of Due Process exists in only two right now. First is domestic violence law. The second is in "racial discrimination" law. You would be astonished to learn more about what we call "hate crimes" and "hate speech" in current American law. That's a different thread than  here, but it has all the same attributes. Other than that, Due Process is rigorously enforced in all  other areas, to the best of my knowledge.

[ScottinCrimea]

It has gotten to the point where it is politically incorrect to form any type of mens' organization.  I can only imagine the uproar if a "National Organization of Men" were formed or a "national Association for the Advancement of White People".  While it's okay for any other group to do so, for a white male to even consider a group to fight for his rights would be leave him subject to abuse and lawsuits.

[Taz]

I can't read minds of other people, so I don't know what did they mean.   I said that it's bad that law gets abused, but there should be some law protecting victims of DV.   If you, guys, don't like the existing one then why don't you write to your senators and try to change it?   

The entire premise of DV and hate crimes is flawed. Violence is violence. There are already laws on the books to address assault, battery, etc. Due process doesn't exist (as already mentioned) in these cases. While there are "battered women's shelters" nothing like this exists for men. A very large portion of men are assaulted by their wives. I for one was attacked by my wife and SHE got help from the battered women's shelter. Go figure! This is what's fycked up about the US!

Men in general need to grow a pair and start standing up for their (our) rights! FYI, I did write all my congressman, both locally and nationally. It doesn't seem to matter as it isn't politically correct to support the "stronger sex".

[Gator]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't it happen with other charges as well, not related to DV?   That's why there are trials, lawyers, jury, judges and etc exist - to decide who's guilty and who's not. 

Judges, being elected officials in many areas, are very reluctant to dismiss DV charges.  Even though there is no compelling evidence, the thinking is that the accused could possibly be a crazed man who would return and murder the accuser (unfortunately, it has happened).  Such an incident would create public uproar and end a judge's career. 

[Ooooops]

This appalling lack of Due Process exists in only two right now. First is domestic violence law. The second is in "racial discrimination" law.

And again - I believe that happen because of long history of discrimination against women and minorities.    You reap what you saw.   It will settle down with time. 

[steviej]

And again - I believe that happen because of long history of discrimination against women and minorities.    You reap what you saw.   It will settle down with time. 

Article 58 mentality: you've got to get rid of all the enemies of the people first, regardless of the collateral damage. Then things will  settle down ...

[Ooooops]

Even though there is no compelling evidence, the thinking is that the accused could possibly be a crazed man who would return and murder the accuser (unfortunately, it has happened). 

And logically that's the reason why police has to act quick in case of DV - that the victim is within easy reach of the offender.   

[Ooooops]

Article 58 mentality: you've got to get rid of all the enemies of the people first, regardless of the collateral damage.

Don't put your words in my mouth.     I like men in general and I'm far from suggesting that all of them should be round up on the streets right now and exterminated.   

[steviej]

And logically that's the reason why police has to act quick in case of DV - that the victim is within easy reach of the offender.   

That's EXACTLY THE POINT! I hate to keep repeating myself, but .... some folks have decided that it is OK to SUSPEND HABEAS CORPUS, SUSPEND DUE PROCESS, SUSPEND PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE ....

[roykirk]

It has gotten to the point where it is politically incorrect to form any type of mens' organization.  I can only imagine the uproar if a "National Organization of Men" were formed or a "national Association for the Advancement of White People".  While it's okay for any other group to do so, for a white male to even consider a group to fight for his rights would be leave him subject to abuse and lawsuits.

I don't think anyone would bat an eyelash if you wanted to form a "N.O.M."  However, if you wanted to form a "National Association for the Advancement of White People," it would be necessary to show (and rightfully so, in my opinion) how white people as a racial group have been discriminated against for hundreds of years.  For what it's worth, I think tribalism is a poor way to address the inequities of the past.  But so is forming dubious "support" groups just to get back at other people.  By the way, I'm one of many men who belong to N.O.W., and I'm most decidedly a male feminist.  Lots of those too. 

[Taz]

And logically that's the reason why police has to act quick in case of DV - that the victim is within easy reach of the offender.   

Police should act quickly in ANY ASSAULT case. Why should DV case be special? In many situations where people are attacked, the attacker and victim already know each other. Why suspend someone's rights? Just enforce the laws that are already written. Instead we create another class of victims. Everyone seems to be a victim of something nowadays! The DV laws are written in such a manner that they are ripe for abuse.

Let me try and explain how absurd it is in general. The same people who typically support the DV laws are the same people who are against capital punishment in my area. They don't want any people put to death on the off chance that they might be innocent. OTOH, they don't mind arresting people that might be innocent as long as the victim is ok. Anyone see the hypocrisy in this. Sure taking someone's life is more serious but a travesty of justice is still a travesty of justice.

A woman can abort a child without my consent. I;ll have no say if she decides to kill a child I helped create. OTOH if she purposely gets pregnant she can then hold me responsible whether I wanted the child or not. She can lie to me and say she is using some sort of birth control but purposely get pregnant and I'll still be responsible. So if I can be forced to support a child I didn't want, then I should also have a say in whether that same woman could abort our child.

Unfortunately too many laws are specifically biased against men. Problem with many laws is their bias. DV laws are definitely ENFORCED with a bias against men.

[Ooooops]

SUSPEND PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE ....

I'm not really good with legal stuff so may be you can explain me in couple of words - how can anybody can be arrested at all for any matter if they are presumed innocent?    And yet, people get arrested every day. 

[Taz]

People are presumed innocent in a court of law. The police typically operate under the assumption your guilty. Quite often though in DV cases the police don't even listen to what the man has to say. Typically the police are supposed to interview all people involved in a typical case.

Most of the time all I've seen is the woman says the man did something and they arrest him immediately without listening to what he has to say even when there is strong evidence the woman is lying. Even an arrest without any convictions can totally screw your professional career.

[Maxx2]

To illustrate how goofy some of these VAWA laws are. In some States if the police respond to a 911 call an arrest is mandatory. The person arrested is to be the one who is most capable of inflicting physical harm. That is the biggest of the marital partners. Never mind that they will be separated the person that is the largest and strongest will be the one arrested and sent to jail. Mostly it's the man but in some cases it maybe the woman.




Maxx

[topofthekey]

It was OUR child. Part of it was from MY body. This whole my body argument is used whenever it is convenient for the woman. She can use it to extract financial compensation for a baby a man doesn't want or kill a baby whenever she wants but that he may want. I hoped that maybe you could see the hypocrisy here but apparently you can't.  The courts and laws are pretty biased against men. I used to think there was more balance than there actually is. After living through it, I see how screwed up it really is. Personally I am done with this topic.

FYI, if you understood sperm bandit, you wouldn't have suggested abstinence as an alternative. I've known of women who didn't have sex with a guy at all but try and use his sperm to get pregnant with anyway.

even though i've probably had a few too many heinekens tonight- i like what you have to say taz. it doesn't take a lawyer to look up the bill of rights. as for myself i don't think the dealth penalty serves any purpose- but at the same time I have a strong distaste for any officer that would respond to any assult case and not talk with both parties and all witnesses.

To diffuse the situation I think it is pretty safe to say that writing your congressman or woman isn't going to fix this. The kind of horrible spin any congressperson would have to deal with would probably kill their career. Obama can't afford to tick off any women right now- so don't bother writing him. Seriously this sounds like something that just has to get appealed.

The funny thing is there are people in here that just say fix it. If it is declared unconstituational they wont fix it- they will nix it.

[roykirk]

The same people who typically support the DV laws are the same people who are against capital punishment in my area. They don't want any people put to death on the off chance that they might be innocent.

The many of us who are against capital punishment aren't against it because we're worried about executing someone innocent.  That's obviously a concern, but it's a secondary issue.  First of all, study after study has shown that execution as a punishment does not deter violent crime.  The other issue is that it's a barbaric and inhumane act to kill another human being, even if it's for revenge.  The only reason it still happens here is because we live in a Christian theocracy and the bible is filled with reasons to kill people.  It's always somewhat ironic (and sad) to me that the only other countries in the world where execution is still used as a form of punishment are the assbackwards Muslim countries.  

[Ooooops]

I would make it mandatory reading for men who want to believe all FSUW are family orientated and have old fashioned values.

Russian women are not robots which come down from a conveyor belt with the same buttons and functions.     They are people like everybody else and are different.   And if some people do believe in all that stuff that agencies write to increase their sales then, well...  what can I say besides that I'm sorry for those guys... 

[Ooooops]

' the hell you say?!?  an agency might be less than forthright about its ladies?!? they aren't all cookie-cutter replicas of June Cleaver ?!? I'M SHOCKED I TELL YA!  :hairraising:

Stepford Wives come to mind...   

[Jet]

Fair enough 
Perhaps I shouldn't post before my first cup of coffee in the morning