Risky Business

[Ronnie]

She made and helped me with all my travel arrangements when there. I felt I would be a heel if I suddenly said "See ya" and went down to the local agency and started seeing other women. Now I know it is a mistake to involve one's self deeply before you meet them.

I haven't read the "Tablets of Stone" lately...is this one on there?  Should be!  I know I sound like a broken record and I don't expect anyone to follow my advice on the "don't write, just go" thing - I didn't even follow it much myself...but then, I never felt like a heel for saying "see ya" when the RW's conduct got freaky.

[myrddin]

Maxx,

I definitely appreciate how long it takes to put together such a long post!  I doubt you're wondering about replies anymore.

I did not know most of your story and I know it's not easy to share some of that.  I want to thank you for pointing out many of the very real risks involved.  I just hope that your Irina wasn't always like you describe there (that you had some good times!) and that you selected those particular pics to make a point!

I hope this history is all behind you and things are a lot better now.  At least some (one) newbie can appreciate how much they've (he's) benefited from people who shared their experiences here, good and bad.

It sounds to me like you did have a back up plan but couldn't bring yourself to end things after so investing so much effort to implement it.  With the benefit of hindsight and your presentation of the story, we can say now (years later), that it's clear you should have cut it off, but when you are in the experience it's not quite so clear (or easy!).

KenC's point about divorce is something a lot of guys here should probably consider.  I encountered my first Ukrainian scammer on an American site a few months after my marriage was over but before the divorce was technically final.  Even though it was fairly amicable, I wondered if it was too soon to get involved again, which didn't serve me well with the women I did meet.  Sometimes there's a desire to rush things.  This could just be my excuse for being "exposed" to FSUW many months before doing anything about it, but by the time I began this search at least I was confident I was really ready to move on.

Just a few kopecks.
myr.

[msmoby_ru]

Both are a matter of opinion.  You have your's and I have mine.  I have seen many different methods work over the years and I try to keep an open mind. (hint) 

Ken    HINT  - suggest you re-read my post and subsequent reples -it was indeed the devil's advocate in me - another prespective -an open mind - that had me contributing and suggesting that Gator's advice re WOVO "sucked" -  (yep, my opinion ) - it was not an attempt to open another "unwinnable" WOVO v WMVM debate ..

In this case, Gator's comments were still on the money.

YOUR opinion, Gator's  - not mine - I think you and he could be wrong and any other guy who is feeling low or is impressionable would be ill advised to treat Gators advice / conclusion as "gospel" .

After a devastating divorce it is questionable if Maxx was mentally and emotionally prepared to meet any women let alone women from a different culture. 

Agreed

It would seem to me that in meeting a number of women, some good ones might have stood out from the rest.
KenC

Here it comes again .. YEAH right ! Like someone in the condition you describe would benefit from the attentions of FSU Agencies and serial daters, willing to lighten his pockets...  This is where I really disagree - going on trips to the FSU to find a woman is a serious exercise -it should be planned - and not some exercise in therapy - it's a "risky business"!

[KenC]

Mark,
A man coming out of a nasty divorce with limited dating skills needs one thing more than anything else IMO: Experience.  I guess one can get this experience by traveling to the other side of the world and meet one RW at a time.  Or maybe he should meet more than one at a time and get more experience with a variety of women on the few trips he took.  Truth of the matter is that Maxx probably should not have been going to the fsu at all and honed his dating skills at home.  Until he properly healed emotionally and got some experience under his belt, the fsu should have been a future goal of his.  As has been said here many times, dating fsu women is not recommended for the novice daters.
KenC

[Turboguy]

First off I have had my share of wacky women as well.   I think I posted once about the one gal who clawed my face on a flight to England because they were showing a James Bond movie with attractive women.

One of my employees asked me today if I ever went to Steeler games.  My answer was that I did and that I had even been thrown out of one.  Well actually the gal I was with was thrown out so I left too.   It bothered her that the cute shapely blond in the tight short shorts sitting in front of me would jump up, cheer and wave her fanny in my face whenever something happend so this crazy gal I was with got into a bit of a fight with her.

I made more trips and wasted more money than most anyone learning a little bit of what works.  Frankly I agree with Ken that Gators advice was good.  Truthfully I don't' care if someone makes a WOVO, a WMVM or lines up a long string of gals but in all honesty I think those doing WOVO's are taking a big risk and cutting their odds of success.   Even though I think Gator's point was you know a lot more what you have when you can compare it with something.   If you only meet one there is nothing to compare too.   I met more than enough to know VWRW was very special when she came along.   If she had been the only gal I ever met perhaps I might never have recognized those qualities. 

[Taz]

I think there is a very salient point that is getting lost in the noise here about the WOVO vs WMVM debate. If you only meet one RW, how do you know what is truly normal or typical for the "breed"? You have absolutely no comparison. It is almost like marrying the first girl you date in high school and fall in love with. Sure it sometimes works out but nobody in my school is still married to that one woman they met years ago.

So often guys seem to get wrapped up in the excitement of going to a new country and all that is involved with it and since they have no point of reference, then tolerate acts by the women that shouldn't be tolerated but chalk it up to cultural differences. After living and working there, I have a much better idea of what is normal for a RW than what I thought was normal even 10 years ago let alone 30.

It is always important to have a point of reference if not multiple points. If you only write and meet one RW how do you know what to really expect? For example if my first RW acted like I expected her too, then something truly would have been wrong with her. My expectations were more like American or European women and how they would act. The vast majority of RW aren't like that. So if she had acted like I originally expected wth my mistaken expectations, then she really wouldn't have been "normal".

I am glad I have a broad base of experience with RW. By that I don't mean dating them but being around them. I now have a much better idea when I encounter a truly special one. I much better understand the type of RW I want, need, desire or can tolerate. I am in a much better position to accurately access the women I am interested because of my previous exposure to RW. I am much more aware of the downside risks as well as the positives. I am less emotional about the process and more pragmatic but my character is no less romantic than before.

I'd definitely recommend that if someone is seriously considering WOVO to take a trip to the FSU and get a feel for the people before becoming romantically involved. There is a lot that can overcome the senses on your first trip and prevent you from making accurate judgements. Of course we all know that msmoby_ru of course as the clarivoyance of the oracle at delphi so this wouldn't apply to him. So unless you aren't in the same class as him, make sure you have a backup plan! Those who fail to plan, plan to fail! In this case add backup plan for yoru WOVO first visit...

[KenC]

Taz,
I really do not want to make this into a WOVO/WMVM debate if all possible.  And in all fairness, msmoby does claim to have had some experience in the fsu prior to going to meet his wife and even knowing some Russian.  All of that makes for a huge advantage for him.  Maxx did not have those advantages.  Maxx was coming out of a nasty divorce from a nut job AW.  Maxx did not have a lot of dating experience.  Th first RW Maxx met and almost married was a total nut job too.  All I am saying here is that Maxx could have benefited from meeting more women.
KenC

[Taz]

Ken - my intent isn't to turn it in to a WOVO WMVM debate either. My point cleary is it is good to have a basis of comparison for what the typical RW is like. Msmoby is always spouting that WOVO is the way to go. I could spout the same exact thing as I could likely make any approach work. The point is the average newbie here won't know that. Taken out of context it would seem to be the only approach to take according to him but most newbies won't know the back story.

I think almost all aproaches can be successful I just think WOVO has a much higher risk factor that is increased even more if the guys have no previous experience in the FSU. Maxx is a perfect of example of why not to date ANY women when on the rebound. Take a rebound situation and combine it with a new environment and culture like the FSU it becomes even riskier to get deeply involved with a RW.

[steviej]

To be successful in this business, I do have the strong opinion that you must "know thyself." Of course, the problem with that is, how can we know when we "know ourself." But anyway, I think the issue of Maxx getting engaged/married to 2 totally whacked out women is a reflection of Maxx not understanding some important things about himself at that time. That is, its' not about not understanding the women. These 2 women are women that any other guy from anywhere could have had 2-3 dates with, and realized that they are totally whacked out. Why didn't Maxx see this? I don't think it's about not understanding women, I think it is some blind spots that we have about ourselves. Women have written books about this in the reverse. That is, why some women repeatedly choose men who will abuse them and dump them.

[Ronnie]

This discussion reminds me of comment posted on RWG about 5 years ago.  It was posted by a guy who owned an agency in Ukraine, and had been dating various FSW women for many years.

Anyway, his comment was to the effect that the women who are "freaks" between the sheets (something that men, being men, are usually thrilled about) were invariably also freaks in their general behavior.

My suggestion here is perhaps that within that comment lies the answer to why some men find it hard to walk away.  This, if it's more than a theory, could be the ultimate in risky business for a WM going to the FSU.

[steviej]

This discussion reminds me of comment posted on RWG about 5 years ago.  It was posted by a guy who owned an agency in Ukraine, and had been dating various FSW women for many years.

Anyway, his comment was to the effect that the women who are "freaks" between the sheets (something that men, being men, are usually thrilled about) were invariably also freaks in their general behavior.

My suggestion here is perhaps that within that comment lies the answer to why some men find it hard to walk away.  This, if it's more than a theory, could be the ultimate in risky business for a WM going to the FSU.

Brother Ronnie thou speaketh the truth !! 

Saul Bellow from "Humbolt's Gift"
"How can you stand living with that woman - she is such a b*tch !!"
"She's absolutely great in bed"
" Ahh .... that makes up for a lot! " 

[Gator]

Mnay posts ago, KenC asked Maxx why he spent his time with two “nut cases” when there were ample numbers of worthy RW.   I postulated a series of possible circumstances that, in concert with Maxx’s persona, could explain why.

Mark, you are misreading me if you feel that I have an agenda that all men should go WMVM.  A WOVO trip has certain benefits for the appropriate situation.

In Maxx’s case WOVO was detrimental, and KenC and Taz and Turbo make valid points.  There were other negative influences.   I said, “Change 2-3 of these, and Maxx probably would not have married Elvira.”  I did not say WOVO was his downfall.

[Gator]

Brother Ronnie thou speaketh the truth !! 

Saul Bellow from "Humbolt's Gift"
"How can you stand living with that woman - she is such a b*tch !!"
"She's absolutely great in bed"
" Ahh .... that makes up for a lot! " 

Saul's Herzog character probably shares some background with some men who venture to Russia to start afresh, except that Herzog is brilliant and gradually healed his wounds himself (IIRC - read it many years while contemplating life and women during my tour in Vietnam).

BTW, going WMVM will likely limit a man's opportunity for action between the sheets (and that is helpful IMO).

[steviej]

Saul's Herzog character probably shares some background with some men who venture to Russia to start afresh, except that Herzog is brilliant and gradually healed his wounds himself (IIRC - read it many years while contemplating life and women during my tour in Vietnam).

.. Maybe I'm even mixing up Humbolts Gift and Herzog. I should go check  .. (naw, I'm too lazy! ) Both great books, by the way.

[msmoby_ru]

Hi Turbo .. welcome to the "fray"!

I made more trips and wasted more money than most anyone learning a little bit of what works.  Frankly I agree with Ken that Gators advice was good. 

..OK.. but read on ..

Truthfully I don't' care if someone makes a WOVO, a WMVM or lines up a long string of gals but in all honesty I think those doing WOVO's are taking a big risk and cutting their odds of success. 

Here we go again .... comparing apples and oranges .. are we discussing Maxx, or a chap who is feeling a lot more confident in himself?!  The latter knows what he wants and is prepared to take that "risk". A woman knows he's serious if he has come to visit HER.... If it doesn't work out you learnt more about yourself, and there is no confusion about feelings for someone else.

 Even though I think Gator's point was you know a lot more what you have when you can compare it with something.   If you only meet one there is nothing to compare too. 

"poopycock" - to use an English expression of total disagreement .. !! We've all read trip reports here of guys who lurch from day to day as to who to chose to get "serious" with in the limited time available - the next woman coming along statistically having improved odds as she is in front of you ... OR the guy chafes, as they are with a lady that doesn't "excite" them and they want to be with an earlier date - who may well be meeting another guy ... !!!

Do we choose a future wife from the pool available in a city / locale we choose to visit or do we choose the lady that is right for us - irrespective of her location ? 

Does one fell confident enough in one's conviction of the suitability of a lady - or do we have to line up others - that happen to be in the same city - just "to be  sure"...   

Should money come into it ?

We are making choices about Wives? People we will share the rest of our lives... 

 I met more than enough to know VWRW was very special when she came along. 

but you knew ... and that's the wonderful thing....   How you got there suddenly doesn't matter..it worked for you..

 If she had been the only gal I ever met perhaps I might never have recognized those qualities. 

We'll never know .. there's only one each of both of you..  I have a feeling you would choose her every time

[Ronnie]

but you knew ... and that's the wonderful thing....   How you got there suddenly doesn't matter..it worked for you..

We'll never know .. there's only one each of both of you..  I have a feeling you would choose her every time

Mark, my "logic breakdown detector" was beeping at me as I read the above.  Are you missing the fact that by the time he first laid eyes on her, his machete was getting dull from a great deal of hacking deeper into the jungle?

[msmoby_ru]

Mark, my "logic breakdown detector" was beeping at me as I read the above.  Are you missing the fact that by the time he first laid eyes on her, his machete was getting dull from a great deal of hacking deeper into the jungle?

Hi Ronnie, YES .. but he married the woman and that should be good enough for all of us !

[Ooooops]

Maxx went from a lunatic ex wife, to the lunatic RW he describes above, to a scamming green card whore who raked his butt over the coals. 

I gotta give it to Maxx that with all his shortcoming in choosing women he didn't call them "whores" even once... 

[msmoby_ru]

I gotta give it to Maxx that with all his shortcoming in choosing women he didn't call them "whores" even once... 

which reminds me of a funny thing my wife said once..

"When I was in Music college I was with a whore but didn't like it.. I had to do it .. !!"

It is unfortunate that the Russian word for choir is the pronounced the same as a another word we have for a prostitute    ... beware at dinner parties.. and be prepared for a quick explanation  ... 

[Turboguy]

I guess part of what makes me feel Maxx could have improved his odds with a WMVM is when I think back to my early days and first contact with foreign women.  I am not implying FSU women are for everyone but for my own personality and needs they are 10 notches better than AW.  Some of my first contacts had a reaction in me of Wow, this gal is amazing.  Once I got more into this I realized that those first girls were perhaps not even average (I am talking as a wife candidate not in beauty terms)

I think if you meet only one there is a chance that if you were more experienced what would be a number of red flags will go totally unnoticed or just seem like cultural differences. 

I can even relate it to my first marriage to an AW.  She was really my first girlfriend and I have a feeling had I had a lot more experience with women I would have seen a lot of qualities that I missed.

I probably started a little dumber than most, particularly compared to someone who reads RWD.  I do think some serious learning is necessary and meeting more women helps in the learning process.

[msmoby_ru]

I think there is a very salient point that is getting lost in the noise here about the WOVO vs WMVM debate. If you only meet one RW, how do you know what is truly normal or typical for the "breed"? You have absolutely no comparison. It is almost like marrying the first girl you date in high school and fall in love with. Sure it sometimes works out but nobody in my school is still married to that one woman they met years ago.

and who's saying you should marry the first FSUW you meet? ?!

So often guys seem to get wrapped up in the excitement of going to a new country and all that is involved with it and since they have no point of reference, then tolerate acts by the women that shouldn't be tolerated but chalk it up to cultural differences. After living and working there, I have a much better idea of what is normal for a RW than what I thought was normal even 10 years ago let alone 30.

Taz, many of the differences we mostly like about FSUW are the things guys read about here... what really matters is how she will cope in your country - even if you love each other and don't have issues with their offspring. She's going to be the one leaving her country -nothing will be normal to her. There's nothing better than a long car journey together to know how she reacts when tired;)  "Speed dating" loads of women isn't going to teach one much..

It is always important to have a point of reference if not multiple points. If you only write and meet one RW how do you know what to really expect? For example if my first RW acted like I expected her too, then something truly would have been wrong with her. My expectations were more like American or European women and how they would act. The vast majority of RW aren't like that. So if she had acted like I originally expected wth my mistaken expectations, then she really wouldn't have been "normal". 

Hmm someone as well travelled as you and you lump AM with European women ... ? We both know that there is no such thing as an average AM / European woman - and certainly a Polish lady in her thirties or older is NOT going to be like a UK woman of the same age.. There are sophisticated Spanish girls in Madrid and uneducated girls in Oxford..  Would you agree that a woman from a city in Siberia is much less likely to have direct dealings  ( meetings) with a WM than one from Kiev? Of course .. their experiences change their expectations. I think the Ukrainian women from the West of the Country ARE different from the East - and not just in how they feel about Russia .. BUT  - they are all women - I observe how FSUW behave in Cyprus once married to a WM and how they behave back home ... they change..  from their attitude to taking credit to get something they want.. they become more independent .  Some guys might not like that change.

I am glad I have a broad base of experience with RW. By that I don't mean dating them but being around them. I now have a much better idea when I encounter a truly special one. I much better understand the type of RW I want, need, desire or can tolerate. I am in a much better position to accurately access the women I am interested because of my previous exposure to RW. I am much more aware of the downside risks as well as the positives. I am less emotional about the process and more pragmatic but my character is no less romantic than before.

The risks are - incompatibility - homesickness - unreasonable behaviour by one / both partners /  offspring - language / cultural differences - in addition to the normal marital ones..   let's not make it too dramatic - there has to be a chemistry and an ability to cope with each others foibles in a long term relationship.

I'd definitely recommend that if someone is seriously considering WOVO to take a trip to the FSU and get a feel for the people before becoming romantically involved.

AGREED - but qualified - I can't see how you can be romantically involved with someone you haven't physically seen or smelt or touched .. you can be excited to meet and be like friends - and  maybe the spark you thought you felt will transpire when you're together.. what better way to see a new country than with someone you feel would make a good friend ? .. maybe more..

There is a lot that can overcome the senses on your first trip and prevent you from making accurate judgements. Of course we all know that msmoby_ru of course as the clarivoyance of the oracle at delphi so this wouldn't apply to him.

Well Taz, my first trip to the FSU was for biz, and I combined it with a WOVO meeting .. my senses were certainly reeling - Hermitage, nice woman -even though I saw and spoke Russian every day - having lived with FSUW in Cyprus FIRST - YES it's different - but if you stay in a nice hotel - not THAT different, if you are witha lady / guide that you can trust and speaks good English  .. but I wouldn't say it affected my common sense - it was a date - with someone I'd written to, talked to - just like home- she just lived further away.  We got on well and met again in Cyprus - it wasn't rushed and she told me something about a little gift from her ex ( I believed her ) that I thought would prevent me from total happiness - STD related - and this made me VERY wary of the dating scene - particularly in FSU....   The lady was honest and kind. Something I'd learnt from correspondence before we met - I didn't feel any "risk" attached.. I knew even if I / she didn't fancy me, I'd still get paid for going there and see some interesting places.

That's why I'd recommend the first trip for guys like ambach to be in a hotel - If you come again, the cultural shop of FSU apartment life can wait.


Your comment re clarivoyance - merely illustrates that I know a heck of a lot more about a lady - before I travel to meet her for a date !

So unless you aren't in the same class as him, make sure you have a backup plan! Those who fail to plan, plan to fail! In this case add backup plan for yoru WOVO first visit...

IF you're looking for a wife  - and you do your research - you aren't likely to NEED a backup plan - and having one ( IMHO ) is extremely foolish if you were particularly interested in one lady.. you shouldn't go if you feel any doubts - a genuine women will go out of her way to help you, and be patient as you evolve your plan to visit ... If you intend in seeing more than one womwn - fine - DO NOT involve her in helping you - and she'll know you're on a VM trip... IMHO you'll start with a "disadvantage".

Here we have two guys - with a great deal of experience of the FSU and their women ( with lot's of experience to offer newbies ) and we don't agree on much .. So, the conclusion I draw is that we have a different idea of the woman we want.... and how to find her ...

[msmoby_ru]

Ken - my intent isn't to turn it in to a WOVO WMVM debate either. My point cleary is it is good to have a basis of comparison for what the typical RW is like. Msmoby is always spouting that WOVO is the way to go.

I sure was guilty of doing that when I joined here  - as it worked for me - I admit I bored the pants off some for whom another approach worked .. MY point here is that Gator used this method as possibly being a way Maxx failed - which I say is nonsense - and offered reasons as to why ..

I could spout the same exact thing as I could likely make any approach work. 

Well, Taz, we look forward to hearing of your success - that being based on getting married and staying married ... right now, you appear to be meeting a lot of ladies and with your experience either you are VERY choosey or unlucky .. or wrong ...

The point is the average newbie here won't know that. Taken out of context it would seem to be the only approach to take according to him but most newbies won't know the back story.

I'll say it again, WOVO worked for me and the lady I chose. It does not mean it works for all - I happen to think a woman will respect you more if she feels you are considering her as potentially wife material  - to the exclusion of meeting others. That period of exclusitivity being from the time to agree to meet... nothing more. .. and see how things go ..

I think almost all aproaches can be successful I just think WOVO has a much higher risk factor that is increased even more if the guys have no previous experience in the FSU.

Strongly disagree - the risk is turning up in the FSU with a string of dates and plan Bs and meeting ladies with the same level of optimism of success . If he has chosen wisely and has faith in himself and prepared ( help from third parties he knows speaking Russian ) - the risk is LESS. 

Maxx is a perfect of example of why not to date ANY women when on the rebound. Take a rebound situation and combine it with a new environment and culture like the FSU it becomes even riskier to get deeply involved with a RW.

Agreed !

[msmoby_ru]

Mark, you are misreading me if you feel that I have an agenda that all men should go WMVM. 

OK, I apologise..I misread you ..

A WOVO trip has certain benefits for the appropriate situation.

I'm trying to think of when it isn't appropriate ...

In Maxx’s case WOVO was detrimental, and KenC and Taz and Turbo make valid points.  There were other negative influences.   I said, “Change 2-3 of these, and Maxx probably would not have married Elvira.”  I did not say WOVO was his downfall.

but you listed the WOVO as one of those three.. and I explained why I disagreed with your reasoning !

[msmoby_ru]

BTW, going WMVM will likely limit a man's opportunity for action between the sheets (and that is helpful IMO).

Hmm, now some guys will try WOVO for all the wrong reasons ..

[Taz]

I have no particular agenda with respect to WOVO or WMVM. I think they both can work. I just see more risk in thw WOVO. I didn't lump AW and European women together, just compared them in general, to RW. My main point is you can't compare them to any other groups of women I've met.

As for moby's comment about staying married. I did my due dilligence with my wife before getting married as much as the time and circumstances would allow. My issue was not with the woman as much as it was with her child. As a result meeting a woman with children is off the table as an option. If it wasn't for my ex step-brat I'd still be married. My ex and I are still great friends and likely always will be. She is a great woman but as good as she is her child is just the opposite. Unfortunately the vast amount of RW tend to spoil their children.

At this point in my life I am going to be incredibly choosy. OTOH in many areas I am quite flexible. I don't care about hair color, height or weight that much as long as the womn aren't fat. I am not that concerned about age either. Considering I've been going to the FSU starting 30 years ago, I haven't dated a huge number of RW. Even spread out over the last 10 years I've been pretty selective on who I've dated.

WOVO won't work very well unless you both have easy and frequent access to email. It also is very important that you can speak a common language or the translator fees will eat you alive. Basically you are "front-loading" the relationship in both time and expense before you've met in person which greatly increases the upfront risk in both time and money. It goes counter to the adage of putting all your eggs in one basket. People can choose whatever method they want but there is no way I am putting all my investment money in just one stock until I really know it well. I would take a trip to the companies' headquarters first rather than just read about it or make a few calls if you get my drift. It is way too easy to HIDE something long distance. That is true of both sides of course as both men and women do it.