Risky Business

[groovlstk]

Marriage is about commitment either the parties have it or they don't, I am not sure spending a lot of time together makes much difference.

In USA the divorce rate is about 50% and that is when a couple spends an average of 3- 5 years together before marriage. Actually the divorce rate is higher in those who had been living together prior to marriage.

This is exactly the kind faulty logic that one-week wonders roll out when people point out the insanity of their behavior. "Well, people who are married 10 years get divorced and they know each other well, so what's the difference if we only know each other a week before we get engaged?"   

On the contrary in India most couples never even meet before marriage and divorces are very rare.

One can argue that USA is not India,  neither is Ukraine.

Don't even go there, you can cite many examples from Indian and Muslim culture, it's irrelevant to your situation and the situation of your Ukrainian honey. If you think a beautiful 20-something dyevushka is going to remain married to a sluggo because of the type of family and religious expectations that some Indian and Muslims bring to the altar, you're deceiving only yourself 

And yes, the US is not Ukraine, so no matter how attracted you are to a woman and no matter how much she seems to return the favor, you may have huge gaps in goals, expectations, culture, and character - things that are revealed only with time and experience together.

It is all about commitment, one can be deeply committed in a few meetings, one can have only cursory committment after years of being together.

You're right, so what's the point in even meeting these women? Just pick a pretty one and make up a bogus religious reason why you couldn't visit her when you file your K1, I believe William III stated he'd never had such a waiver for his clients turned down. Just make sure she's not a doctor, divorced, is left handed, or has an uncle named Sasha and, by your logic, wedded bliss will be yours.

[ambach123]

I am stunned at the ignorance.

India is NOT Muslim. It is 83% Hindu. Those who know something about Hindu religion, know that it is a very open religion.

Hindu civilization has been around for thousands of years; they have a lot of things we can learn.

For one thing they have few if any divorces, and that has nothing to do with their religion.

I have seen it over and over people live together for years and marriage does not last even a few weeks.

It has been proven in various cultures around the world over and over, that the time you spend together has no relation to the survival or lack thereof of the marriage. That is including the United States.

Another fact, most Indians don't wear turbans and they don't have stems coming out of their heads, it is the most well educated society in this world.

[Maxx2]

Max's experience is several years old.

I don't see any reason for a RW in this time to try to stay here if the marriage does not work out, unless of course if she is a physician.

I am meeting guys all the time that have similar stories as mine. My story is relevant.

My ex wife was making 3000 rubles a month or $100. She lived with mother who made another $100 a month. They and my ex stepson lived in a small two room house with bars on the windows. Across the street was this playground that my stepson played at.
 


She was 34 years old but never learn how to drive. Of course because it was unlikely she would ever get a car anytime soon.

Her life is not unlike many FSU women living outside of Moscow or Kiev. America the land of opportunity and lots of men hoping to find a beautiful wife is the happy hunting ground for an unattached Russian women.


Maxx




 

[SANDRO43]

Those who know something about Hindu religion, know that it is a very open religion.

WHICH Hindu religion ? There are dozens of them, with almost infinite local variations, and their 'openness' may vary widely, particularly if you inadvertently infringe some obscure local precept .

[Blues Fairy]

I am stunned at the ignorance.

For one thing they have few if any divorces, and that has nothing to do with their religion.

Here's some food for your stunningly literate mind:
http://family.jrank.org/pages/862/India-Status-Single-Divorced-Persons-in-India.html

Divorce was not even a remote possibility or even thought of until recent times (Kakar 1998; Mullatti 1995). In India, there is a cultural, religious, and social stigma associated with divorce. Community disapproval is stronger for divorced women than it is for divorced men (Lessinger 2002).

Studies of divorced, separated, and deserted women show that a majority of them experience serious financial problems, and as a result, many of them are unable to provide food, clothing, and shelter for themselves and their children (Kumari 1989; Mullatti 1995; Pothen 1989).

The doctrine of pativratya also makes it difficult for a woman to leave her husband; instead, an unhappily married woman is expected to accept her destiny—a notion strongly supported by the Hindu concept of predestination (Amato 1994).

[ambach123]

Whatever the reasons, in India there are no divorces.
At the very least the children have two parents, something that every child needs. The trauma to the child of divorced parents is unspeakable.

The high divorce rate in USA is nothing to be proud of.

I am stunned again at sheer ignorance of some people.

So in India the women suffer economically if divorced, as if they don't in USA. Is n't that reality and the same worldwide?

So Ukraine is different? Yeah right!

The point of the post was that it does not make any difference whether you know the person or don't before the marriage; the stats have shown that very clearly, marriage is about commitment, that can come from your family background or otherwise.

I own a wedding business, the largest of its type in USA; I should know, about 10% of our clients are not married to pick up their wedding album, after three months, and these are people who knew each other and some lived together for years and years before the marriage.

[Blues Fairy]

So in India the women suffer economically if divorced, as if they don't in USA. Is there something wrong in that?

Have you read anything about the status of divorced women in India? And you find nothing wrong with that?
You must be completely mad.

[ambach123]

I don't want to make this personal. Not my style, it sure is yours.

I am not mad but I am not ignorant.

Since you grew up in FSU, you don't know anything about religion, any religion. That is the saddest part of being born in FSU, you know nothing of any religion, you have no faith of any kind.

I sure hope that for the younger generation that would change as churches become more active.

Read what the bible says about divorces and divorced women; it is a lot harsher than the Hindu religion.

In Catholicism, the divorced woman is ex- communicated, she can't accept sacrament, and she would be " eternally damned ".

Whether anyone agrees with it or not,  it is irrelevant; almost all religions in the world damned the divorced women and men, except of course some of the Protestants.

[Blues Fairy]

Since you grew up in FSU, you don't know anything about religion, any religion. That is the saddest part of being born in FSU, you know nothing of any religion, you have no faith of any kind.

 

[johnichka]

Ambach,
Yes, you are ignorant.  Because in Catholicism, a man or woman who is divorced is not ex-communicated from the Church and is still allowed to receive the sacraments unless she or he has gotten remarried without receiving an annullment of the previous marriage.  Virtually, no one is ex-communicated from the Catholic Church.

And I would disagree with you about people who grew up in the FSU having no idea about religion.  If you visit any part of Ukraine, especially Western Ukraine, you will find many, many people who practice their faith and were instructed by thier family albeit underground during the years of the communist rule.  So, yes, you are a little bit ignorant about this topic........

[pitbull]

Since you grew up in FSU, you don't know anything about religion, any religion. That is the saddest part of being born in FSU, you know nothing of any religion, you have no faith of any kind.

Ambach,

Personally, I think you'd be much better off if you look for a wife somewhere else, rather than FSU. Thailand? Philippines, maybe?

However, if your mind is set on the "Russian Women", I totally support your decision to exclude doctors from your list. I would also advise that you exclude all women with college education (preferably, concentrate on High School graduates), as well as those from bigger cities. If a woman is a PhD, RUN!
Looks like both you AND the above mentioned women will be much better off this way.

Cheers

[Admin]

I am stunned at the ignorance.

India is NOT Muslim. ¹ It is 83% Hindu. Those who know something about Hindu religion, know that it is a very open religion.

Hindu civilization has been around for thousands of years; they have a lot of things we can learn.

For one thing they have few if any divorces, and that has nothing to do with their religion. ²

I have seen it over and over people live together for years and marriage does not last even a few weeks.

It has been proven in various cultures around the world over and over ³ , that the time you spend together has no relation to the survival or lack thereof of the marriage. That is including the United States.

Another fact, most Indians don't wear turbans and they don't have stems coming out of their heads, it is the most well educated society in this world.

I don't want to make this personal. Not my style, it sure is yours.

I am not mad but I am not ignorant^{. 4}

Since you grew up in FSU, you don't know anything about religion, any religion. That is the saddest part of being born in FSU, you know nothing of any religion, you have no faith of any kind. ⁵

I sure hope that for the younger generation that would change as churches become more active.

Read what the bible says about divorces and divorced women; it is a lot harsher than the Hindu religion.

In Catholicism, the divorced woman is ex- communicated, she can't accept sacrament, and she would be " eternally damned ".

Whether anyone agrees with it or not,  it is irrelevant; almost all religions in the world damned the divorced women and men, except of course some of the Protestants.

ambach,

My observation, just reading these past few posts, is that you are REALLY bold in your pronouncements. Here are just a few:

1. groovlstk never made any connection between the Muslim faithful living in India. He merely referenced Hindu and Muslim as religions in which polygamy is allowed.

2. Are you Indian? Have you lived in India? I have. My experience was much different than your assertion.

3. Please point out the "proven" "over and over" about time together having no influence on marital longevity. You may be correct, and I am interested in your sources.

4. That standalone sentence confuses me. I suppose it is the use of preposition, "but". Are you saying that you are both NOT MAD and NOT IGNORANT ??

5. This comment implies personal knowledge of Blues Fairy and what she knows, or does not know. Do you have personal knowledge of Blues Fairy?

- Dan

[ambach123]

Dan, I own a wedding business, the largest of its kind in USA; we have 32 branches all over USA. I will give you a link to it privately, if you like, you can judge for yourself. Greg from Georgia here has seen it, he can vouch for it. I am somewhat reluctant to give it publicly.


Me and my staff deals with brides and grooms, day in and day out. That is all we do.

Most of these couples have known each other for years, many have lived together for years, before they tie the knot.

I am sad to say that in about 10% of our clients are not together after three months, to come and pick up their wedding album, for which they already paid.

In the wedding business every vendor collects the money up front, that is the norm throughout the country. There is a valid reason for it.

Do I have real stats that time spent together is irrelevant? No I don't; however it is my impression that the length of communication is not relevant, at least in our clients, who are all mostly Americans.

Dan, Hindu is the predominant religion of India, I don't believe polygamy is allowed by Hindu religion. My problem is that people lump all foreign religions in one. As you well know Hindus and Muslims are not the same and vastly different, they have almost nothing in common and are bitter enemies.

I am not Indian, but I have lived in India, and I have fondness for their culture.

I don't have personal knowledge of BF, but it is my impression that religion is not something that allowed to flourish in Soviet times. The people who were born and raised then did not know much about religion.

I was in Vilnius, I saw beautiful churches wchich were converted to other uses by the Soviets.  I believe if you grow up with no religion it is hard to learn to have any respect for it later on in life.

BF was very quick to point out what Hinduism says about divorces, but she completely omitted what bible says about divorces, it is much worse, my impression was that either she did not know or just did not look.

Dan, these are my opinions, I don't profess to be right.

[Ronnie]

I think Ambach is right about some things.

First if he wants to exclude docs from consideration, I can't blame him.  Every seeker should have a kind of black list.  I remember back when I was seeking, some guys, JB in particular, skewered me for "seeing redflags behind every tree" or something like that.  I walked away from many, many situations at the least sign of trouble.  At the Consulate in Kiev, the spinster Foreign Servie officer who interview my wife for the visa (with her son) asked provocative questions like, "How does it make you feel to be his third choice?"

If the truth be told, my wife was not even in my top ten initially (I hope she never reads this).  But one by one the the others fell by the wayside.  It was a veritable process of elimination.  So no, I don't blame anyone for having their list of "non starters".  If being a doctor puts her on Ambach's list, more power to him. 

My first K1 was indeed a doctor.  She told me one day to understand that I came in third behind her children and her profession.  Actually, she never said which was first and which was second, but over a short time I came to understand her profession was foremost and really the only thing that truly mattered to her. 

It's not that she had a great love for her patients (although she had had extramartal affairs with two of them), her addiction was, as she put it, the way her patients made her feel important.  The addiction for her was the most powerful addiction of them all - POWER.

Some have said here that the problem with men is we don't bother to get to know the lady before marrying them and the lady the man.  I don't think that is nearly as great a problem as each wanting to move forward so quickly that they see lion's dung on the first day out, but we just cross our fingers, whistle a tune and forge ahead into the jungle.  Then when we are eaten alive we blame everyone and everything but our own lack of prudence and good sense.

If men learn only one word of Russian in preparation for their search, it should be 'dosvidaniya"  Unfortunately too many of us learn to say and think,  "Fse budet khorosho" (It'll be okay).

There is much knowledge now available on the subjects here discussed and a lot of experience is shared vicariously, but the judicious application of knowledge and experience, well, that's the kicker we call "wisdom." 

Wisdom is easy to have after the fact.  But as TR said, "Nine-tenths of wisdom consists of being wise in time." 

[Admin]

Dan, I own a wedding business, the largest of its kind in USA; I will give you a link to it privately, if you like, you can judge for yourself. Greg from Georgia here has seen it, he can vouch for it. I am somewhat reluctant to give it publicly.


Me and my staff deals with brides and grooms, day in and day out. That is all we do.

Most of these couples have known each other for years, many have lived together for years, before they tie the knot.

I am sad to say that in about 10% of our clients are not together after three months, to come and pick up their wedding album, for which they already paid.

In the wedding business every vendor collects the money up front, that is the norm throughout the country. There is a valid reason for it.

Do I have real stats that time spent together is irrelevant? No I don't; however it is my impression that the length of communication is not relevant, at least in our clients, who are all mostly Americans.

Dan, Hindu is the predominant religion of India, I don't believe polygamy is allowed by Hindu religion. My problem is that people lump all foreign religions in one. As you well know Hindus and Muslims are not the same and vastly different, they have almost nothing in common and are bitter enemies. ¹

I am not Indian, but I have lived in India, and I have fondness for their culture.

I don't have personal knowledge of BF, but it is my impression that religion is not something that allowed to flourish in Soviet times. The people who were born and raised then did not know much about religion. ²

I was in Vilnius, I saw beautiful churches wchich were converted to other uses by the Soviets. ³ I believe if you grow up with no religion it is hard to learn to have any respect for it later on in life. ⁴

Dan, these are my opinions, I don't profess to be right. ⁵

1. You mean like Pakistan (predominantly Muslin) and India (predominantly Hindu) - but then, there is Kashmir.

2. You would be MUCH wiser to ASK the people, like Blues Fairy, about their childhood experiences with religion, rather than advocating your "impression."

3. Yes, and the most memorable building I recall in Odesa in 1998, was IIRC, Illinsky Cathedral. Everything in the city looked VERY worn-out, but where the Ukrainian people were spending the very little money they had - was in renovating their places of worship. I saw this throughout Ukraine in those years from 1998 to 2001.

4. Your definition of "religion" must be different than mine.

5. It's good to have opinions. It is even better to listen to other's opinions WITH AN OPEN MIND.

- Dan

[Blues Fairy]

BF was very quick to point out what Hinduism says about divorces, but she completely omitted what bible says about divorces, it is much worse, my impression was that either she did not know or just did not look.

I agree with Pitbull, you're much better off staying away from FSU - with your habit of making the silliest and most outrageous assumptions about people you hardly know.  If I didn't mention any other molds of medieval mentality except traditional Hindu customs, it MUST mean I'm either not acquainted with any (forget my BA in History), or didn't bother to look, of course.   The question is, do you really think such examples of medieval mentality as ostracizing and economically depriving divorced women (as opposed to men, in case of India) are a good foundation for strong marriage?  If you do, PLEASE stay away from my homeland and its women Ambach.  My fellow countrymen have poor tolerance for blatant idiocy.

[ambach123]

So now Bible is medieval mentality?

You need not be worried about me.

I have a fair number of your country women already lined up.  They seemed to be smitten by my medieval thinking.

[steviej]

I wonder how often these false DV are claimed versus the real once?    Fast track to GC, you say?   Through numerous shelters, no money, no real job, no person to support you in the foreign country, often kids on hands?   Pretty sh*tty way to fast track, if you ask me.   

There's no way to know what percent of DV claims are real because there is no habeus corpus requirement (which would ultimately sort that out). Also, even though the consequences of a false DV claim against a man are severe, we know nothing about the risk level, or, how likely it is that it could "happen to you!" in the AM/FSUW  marriage process. We have anecdotal evidence that it happens, and when it does happen, it can be a catastrophe for the man. Since the consequences can be severe, it is good in this forum to lay that whole scenario on the table so that newbies will think about it before they jump headlong into marriage with their charming and attractive FSUW. Really, all we can say is, "You need to be aware that this can happen."

If I was to make an educated opinion, my opinion would be that the actual incidence of real DV would be similar to that of domestic marriages, but that the total incidence might be higher because of the incentives to an FSUW (whether planned in advance or spontaneous) to exploit the loopholes for the green card process.

... if you ask me.   Much easier to actually marry a good guy and stick with him...  

Amen to that, Sister Oooops !! I may wear rose colored glasses sometimes, but I do believe that is the large majority of cases anyway.  

[Blues Fairy]

So now Bible is medieval mentality?

No, of course not - it's a collection of wonderfully modern, humanistic, non-sexist, egalitarian rules that any civilized developed country would be only happy to adopt as its Constitution and never bother to separate church from state.  What for, indeed, if the Bible is so marvellously up-to-date in everything that concerns marriage, women's rights, family roles, etc?  And what's wrong with mixing it here and there with Hinduism, where women are so oppressed they cannot divorce their husbands in a dignified and financially secure way?  By all means, let's follow to the letter all these time-proven customs and we'll sure achieve (male) heaven on Earth.  Well, maybe not on the entire Earth but certainly within your lined-up future harem.  

[pitbull]

If I was to make an educated opinion, my opinion would be that the actual incidence of real DV would be similar to that of domestic marriages, but that the total incidence might be higher because of the incentives to an FSUW (whether planned in advance or spontaneous) to exploit the loopholes for the green card process.

At the same time, if I were to make an educated guess, I would be of the opinion that the actual incidence of real DV and abuse in AM/RW marriages is higher than domestic. If only because the woman is totally dependent on the man for quite a while on everything, from her legal status to communication and the ability to elementary move around. It is technically much easier to abuse an RW in this situation.
Also, add the whole agency "Affordable Stepford Wives, made in Russia" advertisement campaign and the quality of men that actually seek those and demand this kind of behavior from there new Russian brides (not sure what percentage of RW-seekers are in this category, but from what I read here, quite a lot)
Makes sense that more foreign women are abused in the US than AW. BTW, it's not just DV per se, abuse may be physical, emotional, economic etc..

[Maxx2]

If I was to make an educated opinion, my opinion would be that the actual incidence of real DV would be similar to that of domestic marriages, but that the total incidence might be higher because of the incentives to an FSUW (whether planned in advance or spontaneous) to exploit the loopholes for the green card process.

You got it but nobody else seems to do. I was told by an immigration attorney that in his opinion and that of his colleagues that if a marriage fails before she gets her green card there is a 90% chance (or so) that she will file an abuse claim. Any American man who breathes the word 'divorce' to his immigrant wife makes himself a certain target.

Maxx

[groovlstk]

Ambach, if I were still single I'd be cheering you on, knowing that you'd be bringing over another beautiful dyevushka who cared not a whit for her husband and would be happy to leave the back door open for me while you were at work. My only regret is you came along a few years too late!

[steviej]

At the same time, if I were to make an educated guess, I would be of the opinion that the actual incidence of real DV and abuse in AM/RW marriages is higher than domestic. If only because the woman is totally dependent on the man for quite a while on everything, from her legal status to communication and the ability to elementary move around. It is technically much easier to abuse an RW in this situation.
Also, add the whole agency "Affordable Stepford Wives, made in Russia" advertisement campaign and the quality of men that actually seek those and demand this kind of behavior from there new Russian brides (not sure what percentage of RW-seekers are in this category, but from what I read here, quite a lot)
Makes sense that more foreign women are abused in the US than AW. BTW, it's not just DV per se, abuse may be physical, emotional, economic etc..

Yes, I understand your theory. I think 5 years ago I would have agreed with you. My opinion has changed to: "the level of dysfunction in AM/RW marriages is approx. the same as AM/AW marriages" because of two things:

- in the 5+ years I have been married, we have met, and heard of, and know of, many AM/RW couples. They are all basically "normal". I have yet to come in contact with any couple like the "psycho couples" cited in these cases. (I do know they exist, of course)
- In general, the AM/RW husbands are more likely to say positive things about their wives than the AM/AW husbands are.

So, overall, I decided things just couldn't be that much different, except at the edges.

[Ronnie]

You got it but nobody else seems to do. I was told by an immigration attorney that in his opinion and that of his colleagues that if a marriage fails before she gets her green card there is a 90% chance (or so) that she will file an abuse claim. Any American man who breathes the word 'divorce' to his immigrant wife makes himself a certain target.

And if this is true, Pitbull, who is controlling whom?  (Nice choice of screen name by the way).

I will repeat what I have posted before: My wife is a firm believer that on the whole, women are meaner and more vile than men.  When it comes to violence against spouse, women are least a man's equal.  A man is restrained from violence for a variety of reasons.  Women have no such restraints. 

I remember my stepfather who bore an ugly scar - the product of his first wife's violent use of her spiked heeled shoe.  Did he report it to police?  Are you kidding? He was 6'4" 220 lbs!  He didn't even go have it stitched fearing questions might be asked.  Nor did he tell my mother the truth about it.  I learned the truth from my stepsister who witnessed her mother's drunken attack as a small child. 

No, sister Pitbull, you are in no position to judge the men on this board as being lesser quality and more apt to abuse.  In doing so, you only reinforce my wife's candid observations about her own gender.

Gentlemen, I don't think it's hard for you to see the type of woman who would file false charges against you.  Is she a narcissist?  Is she devoid of remorse for anything in her life?  Does she care one iota for what happens to anyone but herself?  Ignore the answers to these questions at your own peril.

[Ronnie]

Ambach, if I were still single I'd be cheering you on, knowing that you'd be bringing over another beautiful dyevushka who cared not a whit for her husband and would be happy to leave the back door open for me while you were at work. My only regret is you came along a few years too late!

I have no idea what this means unless it was co-authored Jack Daniels.  Then it's perfectly intelligible.  :whirling: