Risky Business

[krimster]

Confucius (known as "confuse-us" here in Texas) once said, no wait, it was his nephew Hung Lo, said that "people think about bad things because they fear them, people think about good things because they desire them".  What is the stronger element within you, fear or desire? ( a gratuitous insertion of "grasshopper" may be made here).

Reason is the only thing that can overcome fear (although a .44 magnum revolver can elevate one's level of confidence).  If you cannot rely upon your faculties to guide you through life's mine fields, then by all means you should fear every step that you take. 

Is a cross-cultural marriage a minefield?  Absolutely, but so are all marriages.  In Iraq they have actual mine fields, so it'd probably be best not to date any FSU women there, the danger of mixing metaphor with actual reality.

Yes, but some of you are perhaps wondering where I am going with this, and where have I been with it, and how long will it take, and are we there yet?

No.

All of you.  Stop your whining, I mean it.  I will find your mothers, whether they are living or dead, if they dwell in heaven, hell, or upon the earth, and I will force them to read the naked insecurities,  the ego preening, the raw ignorance, the narcissistic narcosis that typifies the overwhelming majority of the "posts" here.

J'accuse! 

Now Dan and others will be quick to counter, no doubt, what is the '"value" of my comment?  This question is asked, only because in actuality each post does in fact possess an intrinsic value, which can be expressed in the formula Revenue=ADDS+clickthrough/number of users * www.alexa.com /.5  So from this metric, my post has little value, perhaps even a negative value that subtracts from the balance sheet, and must be discouraged, if not eliminated completely. 

Does the ledger record value, or is it only price?  Does anyone here even understand the difference?
Would you like to have a cookie?








 

[pitbull]

And if this is true, Pitbull, who is controlling whom?  (Nice choice of screen name by the way).

Ronnie,
just because some attorney said this, it doesn't make it a true fact. The immigration attorney I used was of a different opinion. It is not that difficult to get a GC through the "marriage in good faith" procedure, especially if the divorce was amicable and the former husband was a decent man.
I apologize if what I said sounds like I judge men on this board as being lesser quality, but some of them do sound potentially abusive and controlling.

Also, I am glad you support your wife's opinion, I have a different one: men are more aggressive and violent than women, and women suffer from DV in 90% of cases. Well, you know the "opinions are like a..." saying.

In terms of control and abuse, one of the most common ones I read about on RW forums is when the husband doesn't file the AOS petition for his wife, it may go on for years.
If I am not mistaken, one of the members of this forum (don't remember the nick though) never filed for Conditional GC for his wife (AOS), and seemed to advise this line of action.  

[Ronnie]

In terms of control and abuse, one of the most common ones I read about on RW forums is when the husband doesn't file the AOS petition for his wife, it may go on for years.
If I am not mistaken, one of the members of this forum (don't remember the nick though) never filed for Conditional GC for his wife (AOS), and seemed to advise this line of action.  

FYI, My wife brags to her friends that she got her "permanent" greencard faster than any of them.  Also, my wife came as a package with a 20 year-old son whose character was, and remains, of great concern to me as a sponsor.  So if you don't know what your talking about, maybe you could try remaining silent, but then that's not what pitbulls do, is it?

Also, it's Matthew Bender to suggests waiting to file AOS may be advantageous.  Don't know Matthew Bender?  Google away dear.

[Ronnie]

Krimster,
Looks like Jack Daniels if visiting more homes tonight than Santa Claus on Christmas eve.  I'm going to make a note to myself not engage this board on Friday nights anymore.

[Admin]

FYI, My wife brags to her friends that she got her "permanent" greencard faster than any of them.  Also, my wife came as a package with a 20 year-old son whose character was, and remains, of great concern to me as a sponsor.  So if you don't know what your talking about, maybe you could try remaining silent, but then that's not what pitbulls do, is it?

Also, it's Matthew Bender to suggests waiting to file AOS may be advantageous.  Don't know Matthew Bender?  Google away dear.

Ronnie,

I see evidence, in real life (have not looked for statistical evidence), of the very same thing that pitbull mentioned in her post. While it may not apply to you personally (and I'm sure it does not), I know of several instances in which the AM has done exactly what pitbull describes - has interminably delayed taking action to process the AOS, far beyond any consideration of the normal timing. It is, IMO, almost certainly a 'control issue' and not simple laziness. Imagine the emotional impact that has on the RW (and children, if applicable). They are in some state of limbo, dependent on someone to act on their behalf, who seemingly is disinterested - or worse, threatens with disrupting her life. I know, first-hand, of those instances.

On the DV argument - consider for a moment the experience base many RW have. If they were not abused while in the FSU, most certainly witnessed it. I think it is perfectly natural that many (most?) RW will have a natural, innate fear of DV, based upon their life experiences growing up. It is to be expected. I do not see RW as having any greater propensity to file a DV claim against their AM, although the legal temptation is certainly undeniable.

FWIW

- Dan

[Maxx2]

I do not see RW as having any greater propensity to file a DV claim against their AM,

FWIW

- Dan

Two people from the USCIS (Called the INS with the first and the BCIS with the second) I talked to about my case had the opposite opinion. I dismissed this as prejudice and it very well might be.

I did the AOS three weeks after she arrived. I shouldn't have. I should have filed for the divorce and had her process served but I'll get into that later. IMO if a man does not trust his wife and uses this mistrust to delay the AOS he should consider getting out entirely. Mistrust will break any marriage.


Maxx

[Admin]

Two people from the USCIS (Called the INS with the first and the BCIS with the second) I talked to about my case had the opposite opinion. I dismissed this as prejudice and it very well might be.

I did the AOS three weeks after she arrived. I shouldn't have. I should have filed for the divorce and had her process served but I'll get into that later. IMO if a man does not trust his wife and uses this mistrust to delay the AOS he should consider getting out entirely. Mistrust will break any marriage.


Maxx

Maxx,

I often wonder if the sampling of cases that appear before the authorities might not skew their impressions of the real percentages. I don't know, but I do wonder about it.

My observations are from what I see around me in the AM/RW community. It is fairly large here in Denver, so there are enough data points to at least claim they are not entirely isolated - but that is far from meaningful in a statistical sense.

As for your comment about mistrust - I completely agree. All the more reason BOTH persons should KNOW one another PRIOR to entering into marriage.

Question: What advice will you tell your son (or daughter) about contemplation of the decision to enter into marriage?

Just curious.

- Dan

[Maxx2]

Question: What advice will you tell your son (or daughter) about contemplation of the decision to enter into marriage?

Just curious.

- Dan

I have two grown daughters. Neither are married. I would tell them to take their time getting to know the person. To question themselves if they or he can make it through the tough times. Do they see him as faithful? Without a controlling nature? Is he mature? To try and imagine the marriage 10, 20, 30 years from now. Do they respect him? His interests? Do they share an interest or goal in life with their perspective that they can do together beyond simply day to day living? Something important beyond themselves? Marriage is much more that physical attraction and having fun together.

Yes, it is difficult to know what the statistical averages would be on the percentage of failed RW/AM marriages. The TJC had a survey done at some women's shelters in Maryland/Virginia to determine how violent immigrant spouse/USC marriages are. They found that way more than half are violent. Wonder why?


Maxx 

[Maxx2]

Today I got this post from an American woman

These stories are very sad to read and I keep thinking, why are American men so emotionally vulnerable and lost that we could get sucked into these fraudent situations?
Where did we get lost? Isn't that the real question? Isn't it time for us to grow up and learn the important lessons of emotional maturity?
I traveled extensively and also read a lot about how American men seem enraged by American women and are going to go off and find a "real woman". Apparently, we don't spit shine shoes and iron underwear anymore and our breasts sag so we're out.
WHAT?

To share a meeting I had with a high profile immigration lawyer in Orange County: he thinks the internet is the scourge of emotionally weak people. He has to defend people in immigration court and told me the story of a 72 year old man who found a 26 year old on the internet and when asked if the marriage was consumated, the answer was viagra.
Get me a break!

When I have gone into therapy to ask the question why, at 61 and dynamic and successful and asked where are the men; the answer I received from male counselors is that men are ashamed of their problems and won't deal with them.
You know, we are threatened with terrorism everyday and I want to know where are the men who are going to protect my country?

Are they really in Thailand, having sex with 12 year olds? Are they really in Vietnam buying 22 year olds off the streets who claim to be virgins for immigration sake? Are they really in Eastern Europe buying a bride from a marriage broker?
An undercover journalist, from Forbes went on one of those all male, "get the real women", Eastern European tours and he wrote that the American men were put on buses, plied with alcohol and after a week of collecting all the sex they wanted, they could not longer remember whose tits belonged to whom from all the photgraphs they collected, so they just pulled one out of the pile and the lucky girl got to come to the U.S. as his wife.
When interviewed, they were so ashamed, they claimed to be there for the sights. The couldn't admit the truth.

So stop being ashamed of your behavior...stop being stupid. There are reasons for your loneliness..I know you are being sold sex at every street corner in the world but you really need to get control and stop embarassing me and other American women. We don't deserve it and no, I won't iron your underwear but I will support your decision to get emotionally healthy.

When I ask my intelligent male friends how they live knowing that other men go off the deep end, they tell me they choose to act differently and that seems to work.
Why are you asking Immigration and other federal agencies to defend you; why don't you encourage men to avoid the problem?

[Admin]

I have two grown daughters. Neither are married. I would tell them to take their time getting to know the person. To question themselves if they or he can make it through the tough times. Do they see him as faithful? Without a controlling nature? Is he mature? To try and imagine the marriage 10, 20, 30 years from now. Do they respect him? His interests? Do they share an interest or goal in life with their perspective that they can do together beyond simply day to day living? Something important beyond themselves? Marriage is much more that physical attraction and having fun together.

Yes, it is difficult to know what the statistical averages would be on the percentage of failed RW/AM marriages. The TJC had a survey done at some women's shelters in Maryland/Virginia to determine how violent immigrant spouse/USC marriages are. They found that way more than half are violent. Wonder why?

Maxx 

Maxx,

Do you have a link to that TJC study?

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would take seriously a 'study' on DV in which the only respondents were women from a shelter - but I'd have to see the questions they were asked to be sure.

- Dan

[Maxx2]

Maxx,

Do you have a link to that TJC study?

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would take seriously a 'study' on DV in which the only respondents were women from a shelter - but I'd have to see the questions they were asked to be sure.

- Dan

It is something I pulled out of memory. The women questioned were mostly Hispanic. I bet ODR would have the link.

Maxx

[Maxx2]

I did some searches at ODR and found this

We found that American born spouses constituted 52.2% of the perpetrators, 9.7% of the victim’s spouses were naturalized U.S. citizens, and only 2.2% were married to lawful permanent residents.  The remaining survey participants who provided information about the immigration status of their spouse/former spouse reported abusers with other forms of immigration status such as Temporary Protected Status, student visa, work visa and undocumented.  This analysis reveals that the vast majority of the 64% married/formerly married women who reported abuse in this survey were married to and abused by U.S. citizens.  These data further suggests that when U.S. citizens are married to foreign women the abuse rate is approximately three times higher than the abuse rate in the general population in the United States.


Bad Research Leads to Bad Law
by Wendy McElroy

http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcelroy/mcelroy84.html

http://www.online-dating-rights.com/forum/index.php?topic=498.msg1438#msg1438
Senator Cantwell appears to have a pattern of submitting misrepresented information. Previously she was caught using bogus statistics by citing exaggerated high abuse rates (49.3%)of hispanic women in the Washington DC area  (none of whom had met her husbands via mariage brokers) as a reason to regulate "marriage brokers".http://www.filipinalady.com/members/join/S1618_IMBRA.htm  Read middle of second page
This is a gross misrepresentation of facts with the "49.3%"  figure mentioned above being borrowed from "Offering a helping hand: legal protections for battered immigrant women".
Open the following link: http://www.wcl.american.edu/journal/genderlaw/10/10-1or1off.pdf?rd=1
The actual quote reads as follows, "A survey conducted among Latino Immigrants in the DC area found 49.3% abuse..." The women in the study cited were Latino immigrants, many of them illegal aliens of a completely different social, racial and economic order than clients of IMO's who are normally Caucasian, earn above average incomes and are trying to abide by the law to bring their fiancée(s) into the country legally. Furthermore the survey involved women in the immediate Washington DC area- a very limited  area of survey.

[ScottinCrimea]

ambach, I have never seen someone so grounded in their ignorance.  It's not what you don't know that will ultimately doom you, it's what you are positive about that is just plain wrong.

I have no problem with you avoiding physicians as a marriage choice, but your reasons concern me.  It seems you are hoping to woo a woman with your money, then be sure to pick one who will remain dependent on you financially and thus avoid the possibility of her leaving.  You are afraid that a physician can "easily" get her medical license in the US and thus wouldn't need you any longer so would be more likely to leave the marriage.  It seems you are looking for ways to minimize the possibility of divorce and see this as one way.  It is apparent you have seen FMG's where you live, read some statistics and concluded that you know the whole story.  If you truly had any idea about how difficult it is for a physician trained in the FSU to get licensed in the US you wouldn't even have brought it up.  If you want the real story from someone who really knows, let me know and I'll enlighten you.

As for the religious aspect, you have made it very clear that you know nothing about the people of the FSU.  To say they had no religion and know nothing about religion is another clear case of ignorance.  To move forward based on this assumption is another of the landmines youare planting for yourself.

It is obvious that you see the whole marriage thing as a business.  You are doing your due diligence, creating a business plan, weighing the pros and cons and setting a timetable for various steps in the process.

I believe that your attitude and the way you are going about it will ultimately lead to exactly the result you are trying to avoid.

[BC]

My take on (some of) this is:

1. DV happens.
2. A system has been created that allows immigrants to gain by falsely claiming DV.
3. DV WAVA is probably a very very small fraction of the overall immigration problem.
4. The government is probably not interested in long drawn out, expensive and resource heavy litigation, so are just approving as the applications come in.
5. The courts give the immigrant a lot of benefit of doubt, as they probably should.
6. The sponsor is screwed either way, unless there is a way to somehow appeal or file suit against the government (also expensive).

Considering this is a no win deal for the sponsor, might be probably best to try and avert even before DV charges are filed.  Agree to filing AOS right away, work out some support arrangements and let the bird fly without a battle.

In the long run, I don't believe there is any government on earth that will support the mistakes of individual citizens. - That is probably the only true risk.. Maybe even a policy of deterrence.

[Maxx2]

I agree with about 90% of what you wrote BC With the 6 points those are fine and sum things up accurately but in "Agree to filing AOS right away, work out some support arrangements and let the bird fly without a battle." It s illegal to do that but in practical terms it means that the citizen spouse has to delay the divorce for some years thus giving her greater grounds (more time married) to get a better spousal maintenance settlement. These GCG marriage take years out of a man's life if he doesn't quick end the marriage without further entanglement and delays. Many of the men in this process are older. To give a GCG wife 3 or 4 years of their lives is a mistake. Remember here in the States it means a year or so to get the green card with conditions, then 2 years after that to get the conditions removed, then a year or so after that to get the divorce. Some States require a one year wait before the divorce can be filed. So a 45 year old guy could find himself waiting until he's in his 50's before attempting a second try at finding a genuine women. Also there is the man's self esteem issue. If a man finds out he has been used and tricked by his wife to go along and give her what she wants is usually more than his ego can take. There is something satisfying in dumping them like bad trash and letting them sweat it out for a while about their green card.


Maxx   

[Jumper]

ambach,

 To justify spending little time getting to know your future spouse,
based on the statistics  in other societies or cultures ,that time spent together doesnt impact thier  divorce rates seems more than a bit odd?

granted, it makes perfect sense IF you were marrying someone from the society ,religion and culture that you are basing such things on?
(USA from your marriaqge business experience,  India/hindu  from what you've read and experienced there)
but you are not looking to marry someone from the cultures you cite?

If you are looking to marry a RW,
the culture, religion and society pressures , in the FSU, as well as your experiences ,or other peoples ditrect experiences there, with RW  are going to be the only relevent ones?

if you are deeply concerned with these statistics,
then by all means you should look for marriage from a culture and religion
that reduces the statistical odds of divorce?

if for example,  Indian /hindu is it.. why are you not searching there?
youve lived there before so have first hand experience ,you like the culture and have some knowledge of it..

i'm just curious why not look there ?
They certainly have plenty of intelligent, beautiful women?




personally the fact that people stay in a marriage , doesnt always mean much to me..

i'm sure you could find some faith or sect, in the world,
 that has almost a 0 divorce rate..
it wouldnt always mean those were fullfilling happy marriages though..??

while i respect those people who follow thru on commitment..regardless of personal happiness..

i wouldnt want to marry a woman simply because i felt her cultural or religious
guidelines were so strong as to remain within any marriage that was no longer a good one for her, or myself..  

just food for thought?

(and no, i have never been divorced)


Your mind seems made up on many misguided *facts* about the FSU.
please keep an open mind when you do travel there.
or you will see "only" what you have already decided things *are* like.
it wont be fair to the people ,there or to yourself.


as fars as medical doctors..
a Ukrianian  medical doctor, has a very long road to ever being a practicing physician
in the USA.

the "reasons' you are eliminatinmg them are completely unfounded in any facts.

to continue your search in such a misguided and close minded manner isnt in
your best interests?

Someone with real world experience and a degree in advanced programming ,would
be far more likelty to have a good earning potential immediately once in the USA.

 Is divorce more or less prevelent in marriages in which  partners have reasonably good salaries?

I dont have the answers, but you dont seem to be asking the correct questions?

you have vast experience in OUR cultures weddings,,?

are there any common denomenators in those marraiges that break up before the photos are picked up?


I understand this is indeed risky business..

What i looked for in any potential  spouse , wasn't nationality.
it was the individual. Thier character, thier personality.

I cant believe this thread has drifted so far from the fundamentals.

you want to reduce risk of divorce ?

AJ's top ten best ways~!!   LOL
 
and yes they are ridiculously obvious,.

1. Don't marry.
2.Have a small boat, boating accidents happen.
3.actually KNOW the person you are marrying very well.
however long that takes. (2 weeks, or 2 years)
That is the only way you can know if you are a good couple together.
your personalities can be very different or similar ,but they do need to compliment
each other
and yes you need to REALLY truly like that person !! for who they actually are!
(not whom you want them to be , or who you think they are)
and enjoy thier company.
4.Some people simply are more grounded in life, and caring of others.
Marry someone with those qualities, coupled with high ethical values..and strong sense of fundamental commitment to you, and the institution of marriage and family.



This isn't rocket sceince?
but the long term results in something as unpredictable as human relationships are certainly a huge unknown..

but if you marry someone that you break up with before you pick up your wedding photos..
odds are there were signs of trouble long long before,.??
and they married to "fix" something ,
were people of very little commitment to each other, and no determination at all to work things out..
or simple did not know the person beforehand.
there is little other explaination for such silliness.....

[ambach123]

AJ thanks for a well thought out post; I will try to answer some of your concerns. I apologize for a long post.

First of all this is indeed a risky business; I want to thank KenC for starting it.

My situation may be different than many but everyone has a different situation anyway.

I would try to describe how I have tried to minimize  my risks, some may not agree with that, but that is fine.

It was about seven years ago, I was destitute and broke. I could never make enough money to pay my rent. Today I don't pay rent, I also don't have any mortgage to pay either, and Boston is one of the most expensive places to live in the country.

Why is that relevant?

I have a lot of choices in Ukraine, the 20 or so women who are lined up waiting for me, are doing so because I would give them a better life, they know that and I know that.

I have been poor and I understand poverty very well. Money may not buy happiness but it sure buys a sense of well being, not to have to worry about paying for your daily living expenses. The sense of freedom is exhilirating and for me hard to even describe.

Some RW may have an admiration for someone who made something from nothing, but I am not sure if many of them know that or understand that. Though I have built something that hopefully would last for generations beyond me.

The point is that I understand them, I would have done anything to get out of the situation  of poverty I was in. In Ukraine, and for a large part in USA, if you are not rich, you are poor.

I believe divorces are painful, emotionally and financially and this is risky business, a very risky one.

Here is what I have done, and I  repeat it may not what you would do, but it takes all kind.

1. Eliminate those who had  transferable skills,  like physicians, dentists etc. My previous post tht dealt with FMG described the 250,000+ FMG who are here, I don't believe the licensing requirements for FSU doctors are any different. My wife would be a mother and raise children.  I want to pass on my fortune to another generation.

2. Eliminiate all the divorced women; statiscally those divorced once are more likely to divorce again. Also eliminate all the women whose parents are divorced; since they are more apt to get a divorce.

3. Draw up a stiff pre- nutpial agreement. To quote Donald Trump " Only an idiot would ever marry without a pre nup".  26 states in the Union have adopted a " Uniform Pre nup Agreement " code.  In brief you can put whatever you want as long it does not involve the children and is not against the law. In my pre nup agreement she would leave with exactly what she came in with. She does not need to file any DV charges, she is free to leave anytime with the same suitcase she brought in from Ukraine, with exactly the same items as listed, it is all perfectly legal.

If she is not happy I have no intentions of keeping her here.

Check with your state if yours belong to the Uniform prenup act; if not get married in Nevada, that state does, and you can choose Nevada law, even if the prenup is signed somewhere else.

Perhaps more importantly the prenup stands on its own regardless of whatever the situation may be between the couple, the Judge does not have any discretion.

These measures may appear harsh, but I don't want to in be Max's shoes or Hans Reisner's shoes or countless others who came before me and were burned.

About the length of time that parties know each other as safeguard, my experience and I have extensive experience with couples in USA, we have not seen any corelation.  An average wedding costs abut 40K and about 10% of the wedding albums we make are never picked up.  These are the people who knew each other for years and years before getting married. There is no common denominator.

Would my safeguards work in this risky business, I don't know. But I have heard doomsayers before, when I started in business I was repeatedly told by people in business that I was doomed to fail. Those making the predictions are no longer around.

[Maxx2]

I agree with about 90% of what you wrote BC With the 6 points those are fine and sum things up accurately but in "Agree to filing AOS right away, work out some support arrangements and let the bird fly without a battle." It s illegal to do that but in practical terms it means that the citizen spouse has to delay the divorce for some years thus giving her greater grounds (more time married) to get a better spousal maintenance settlement. These GCG marriage take years out of a man's life if he doesn't quick end the marriage without further entanglement and delays. Many of the men in this process are older. To give a GCG wife 3 or 4 years of their lives is a mistake. Remember here in the States it means a year or so to get the green card with conditions, then 2 years after that to get the conditions removed, then a year or so after that to get the divorce. Some States require a one year wait before the divorce can be filed. So a 45 year old guy could find himself waiting until he's in his 50's before attempting a second try at finding a genuine women. Also there is the man's self esteem issue. If a man finds out he has been used and tricked by his wife to go along and give her what she wants is usually more than his ego can take. There is something satisfying in dumping them like bad trash and letting them sweat it out for a while about their green card.


Maxx   

Wow! Maxx, I am impressed with your depth of knowledge of the in's and out's of this situation!  You can see you are a veteran of one of these disasters. 


Maxx

[ScottinCrimea]

ambach, please explain to us why you don't want any woman with transferable skills and what specific skills you consider dangerous.  You want an intelligent, educated woman with these limitations?  I find that very strange.  Such a woman would get bored very quickly sitting at home all day cleaning your house and raining your children.

At least you have made very clear what you consider your attraction to the women who are planning on meeting with you,

"I have a lot of choices in Ukraine, the 20 or so women who are lined up waiting for me, are doing so because I would give them a better life, they know that and I know that."

There is no mention of love, companionship, etc., simply a series of interviews to strike a bargain with the best candidate to provide you children and a clean home in exchange for a better life for her, ensuring that she will stay by limiting her ability to strike out on her own if she is unhappy and being sure that she will gain nothing from anytime spent with you so must return to a life of poverty.  I would much rather have what I have now, a wife who has many options but chooses to stay with me because we are best friends and she loves me unconditionally.  I question your self esteem to think that you must compel her to be with you through financial means and that you have nothing else to offer.  Maybe it's just that you know yourself better than we do.

Again, let me emphasize that you know nothing about what it requires for a FSU physician to get licensed in the US.  If you look at the FMG's we have in the US, the vast majority of them are from English speaking countries such as India and Pakistan and their medical education curriculum is much different from that in the FSU and more similar to that in the US.  In fact, I was asked to be on a committee that wanted to change the medical curriculum in Ukraine to be more in line with the Western model but this was right before I left and I had to decline.  Seeing how you try to extrapolate information about one group onto another and then state it as a fact shows a deep flaw in your thinking and methodology.

[Jumper]

Ambach-
 
Not to dwell on the doctor issue, but Scott certainly can tell you the specifics of why a Ukrainian doctors skills,  are not transferable to a US physicians salary once she arrives here.
The truth is she would start almost from scratch..if wanting to become a US physician.
Her good skills and education ,wouldn't insure her even a nurses position initially.
Many MANY other professions would transfer with far more ease.

Specifically, the doctor issue isnt what i'm pointing out.
its the fact you do yourself a disservice by operating on bad information?

You are correct that everyone has thier own critreria and selection process..
and everyones will be quite different?

I would just offer advise to attempt to base yours on something more than impressions
or bad information?

your take on doctors is just an example-
as you eliminated some very well educated ,and likely very caring in nature, women -
based solely on flawed data and poor understanding of the real situation.


I am glad you became successful.It's admirable.
Just because you were "poor" once
(a very relative term by the way..)
does not mean you understand RW, or can relate to them from that perspective.

You do really appear to think you can line up 20, and pick a good one out  for yourself.
You can do that as well in the USA ?

Regardless the fact you can offer a better life,
most  American women (even very poor ones)
will have other criteria in considering marriage , to anyone.

RW are not from another planet.. and will have the exact same thoughts.
While a better life is always appealing,,
it is just one piece of a very complex puzzle of whom to marry ?

you are looking for a woman of decent education, and high ethics.
You should expect that the carrot of a better life,
 held in front of her nose, will not be a huge enticement for her, and certainly
not towards a long marriage.

An equal or better life style than she currently has,
 if shes relocating, and leaving all she's ever known behind,
is more of an average expecation rather than anything special.

if she would marry, simply to better her life position,
that is not what you are looking for?
but you are very likely to find.


I dont want to offend you, i just think some of your ideas are very flawed in respects to visting Ukraine for the purpose of marrying someone.

I know a lot of good at heart RW,
None would respond well to what you are proposing.
at least in the way you are laying it  out here?

I know a few RW with questionable ethics,
 they would all be extreemly happy to meet you.


I only gave 4 of my top ten list!! lol

We seem to be  on completely different pages.. in our views on relationships, and
risk avoidence

and like you stated , thats fine! everyone is an individual.

i'll simply share my thoughts, on your 3 points ..
it may be of little value to you.
but might be of some to others, who knows?


1. you are eliminating those with  transferable skills.

While i did not specifically look for a woman with easily transferable skills,
i certainly did not avoid or eliminate them.
It was indeed viewed as a positive, not a negative.
I would not view this differently for an anmerican woma nor a woman of another nationalioty, whty wiould it be different if considering a RW? it wouldnt.

I do not find that family orientation, is tied into wether they have transferable job skills
Their indiviudual  values and priorities determine that. 

In addition i wanted someone who could be immediately self confident and self reliant as much as possible.As they would be happier.
 I did everything in my power (so did she) to insure she could hit the ground running,once here.She could communicate well, and if she wanted, she could drive the day she arrived, she could work, or do whatever she had interest in.

That outlook was greatly appreciated by my RW, ambach.
and would be by most?
Regardless of career or family orientation,or nationalilty for that matter?

2. you are eliminating divorced RW, or ones with divorced parents.

On this I can *statistically* understand your thinking ... .

but you are marrying an individual, not a statistic.

 I did not base anything on a womans divorced status.
I based my thoughs on how she was as a person,, her character,
how she treated an *ex* , in both reality or in words..

My wife was never married..
but this was not part of my critria.

the honest truth is , our marriage initially would have been smoother ,
had she some life experience of being married previously.




3. you are setting up a stiff prenup
and consider if ending your marriage, ending it on the note she can return with the
same bags she came here with..free to return home of course,, but with nothing from you in any way shape or form.

 You want to offer up  a better life, with the caveat that  she stays with you.
how business like?


I was quite the opposite.
any woman i thought enough of, truly loved and cared for enough to actually consider marriage to.
I wanted to help in any way , wether we ultimately worked out or not was irrelevant?

If we split up..after an honest effort at the marriage,
Then she knew quite well I would do what i could to help her establish herself here, or reestablish herself there.

That mindset was also very appreciated!

does this set me up for a greater risk of divorce?

with someone sincere it quite likely decreases those chances!!

 if i marry someone insincere "might " increase them ?
but would it matter at that point, as they were insincere anyway ?

while a caring and considerate person ,of someone i know and love,
 i am far from foolish or naive.so the odds of marrying someone entirely insincere were fairly slim.


I venture,  from your posts you are if anything overly cautious,
at least in this endeavor.

This is a risky business.
you SHOULD be cautious.

The very best risk avoidence , is actually knowing the true nature and character of the person you are marrying.
There is no substitute for it.

Anything else you've listed to reduce the risk of divorce ,
(and your reasons behind doing them)
likely increases  those odds instead.
i'm serious. you are with each post exposing a train of thought that in my mind and experience,
increases the likelyhood of running off sincere women , and attrracted a type you do not want.

while you may be savy and filter them out,  the general mentality displayed may leave you with  poor candidates in the long run..
I hope i am wrong.

i'd like you to consider  that a sincere intelligent RW ,
will be doing as much of the choosing as you will be.
so all your theory will be mute?

and dont you want love to be part of the equation in marriage?

whom you fall in love with,. will not likely match all your critria,
while  it all looks good on paper,
 it isnt a business!!
 and if you want that true feeling of enduring love,
you need to be open to it , in whatever form it comes in?

life and love generally are a bit messy..
not at all like a business relationship with a  drawn out plan..

ambach,
my wife loves me truly.You cant shake a good RW if you wanted to.
(and i wouldnt want to!! )
but I wasnt even a consideration as *husband material* when we first met.
I was interesting to date, and fun.
Her own critria eliminated me from the catergory of future husband
I was ok with that.(while open to the idea.. i wasnt set on being  married , or to a RW for that matter)
We simply fell for each other,
and knew each other two years before marriage.
next month will be 5 years which is short in marriage terms.

I wish you luck,
and hope you can  remain cautious ,yet let go enough ,to truly fall in love with someone.

life is too short..not to have that in your life.

honestly, if i had lost everything thru this marriage,(and an important point is i was prepared to)
 i would have simply rebuilt.

 I think that marrying someone from another culture, (and marriage in general)
you must be willing to risk, and put that person first and foremost.
You cannot find true love,,  "halfway"

In my opinion,  you cannot hope for an enduring marriage without real love and the commitment that comes with it.Real love envolves real risks,and
at its very root, envolves putting anothers best interests, before your own.

if you are in a position where that is  not possible for you..

then much like gambling,
simply do not do it?

[Jumper]

I would like to add..

that the whole prenup thing is very very case specific,
so i am not going to say your are off in wanting one.

It is the mindset behind the why's and hows of a prenup, that need to be in good faith?

 I would not want one, nor did i need one.
Despite "The Donalds" best advice.

If you are in  a position to need one , or it being prudent, then by all means you should do so!

but her interests should be included, and that would include far more than semding 
her back on a plane with the bags she came with.
 This is not the original monkey Wards catalog, with its first, in returned merchandise policies.
You are not returning some "goods " off the shelf that did not meet your expectation.

If you feel you owe a person whom you married absolutely nothing..
then why bother ?

it isnt about feeling obligated.
you should care DEEPLY about the person you would marry?
not pre-plan a very callous end,if one comes about.

If you have the means ,, then why not be slightly generous?
surely you could simply help her get reestablished easily enough? no real financial pain involved for a man in your position??
so no real risks?

obviously if duped.. this isnt something you would do.

[ambach123]

In life you learn from your own and other people's mistakes much more than successes. There are a lot of people here who have success stories to tell.

But the lasting impression has been made by at least two stories here and some others.

Let me take them.

First Max, he went into it without a prenup. If he had a prenup at least he would be financially safe. Perhaps more importantly if she knew that she could not get any money, her attitude may have been different. In addition, remember our judicial system thrives on lawyers who collect no matter what. You can exclude any payments to her lawyers in effect cutting of any court battle.

Second Hans Reisner who killed Nina. I don't condone killing anybody, that is wrong, the point of this discussion is how to avoid it in the first place. Nina was set to come to USA because she wanted to be doctor here. She found Hans and seduced him.  She was beautiful, everyone here can see that. She was a woman who had transferable skills, or at least she thought they were transferable.  If Hans had recognized that she would be alive in St. Petersburg and he would not be facing 15 years in prison.

There but the grace of God go I.

Can you tell when you are being seduced for a visa?  We all like to be Monday morning quartebacks. We all think that we are brilliant and we can spot that.
The reality is different, it has been proven time and time again by guys being used as a mule, that they can't .

You need safeguards, otherwise you venture into this like jumping without a parachute.

With regard to the RW who gets into it with me, she would know what she is getting into explained to her in English and Russian, very explicitly. A lot of them would bail out, that is my intention to begin with, to filter them out; those who would be interested would be very serious about it and committed to a relationship.

The best prenups are the ones never used.

[Shadow]

Ambach you say that they know what they get in to.

Does that mean that you explicitly tell them that your intention is to 'offer them a better life' on the condition that they at any time stay married to you ? And then you expect those who do not bail out to be committed to a relationship with you ?

I wish you good luck, and hope that the lawyer that arranges your pre-nup is better than the lawyer that will fight it.

[mspanky]

 Hans Reisner was a nut. It's as simple as that. Anyone looking at his behavior at his wedding which was videotaped and other video tapes of him could clearly see that. Add to that his transsexual best man.

 I agree Nina must have been desperate to marry an American so begin her life here and ignored the red flags. But I think ANY woman who had married him was set up for something bad to happen. I remember watching an interview with him and getting the creeps. My reaction was "What a crackpot. What in the hell was that woman thinking.?". So unless you have the personality traits of Hans Reisner why would you think you would have the same outcome?

   A Russian friend of mine says to watch out for the young RW under 30. He says most are all about "money" in this new generation and smell it from a mile away. They will do whatever they need to ax-quire it. Marrying a man with means in #1 in their plans. So I would say pay attention to her personality first. She may just be a doctor who went into the field because she is a giver and wants to help people . Rather than a taker.

In life you learn from your own and other people's mistakes much more than successes. There are a lot of people here who have success stories to tell.

But the lasting impression has been made by at least two stories here and some others.

Let me take them.

First Max, he went into it without a prenup. If he had a prenup at least he would be financially safe. Perhaps more importantly if she knew that she could not get any money, her attitude may have been different. In addition, remember our judicial system thrives on lawyers who collect no matter what. You can exclude any payments to her lawyers in effect cutting of any court battle.

Second Hans Reisner who killed Nina. I don't condone killing anybody, that is wrong, the point of this discussion is how to avoid it in the first place. Nina was set to come to USA because she wanted to be doctor here. She found Hans and seduced him.  She was beautiful, everyone here can see that. She was a woman who had transferable skills, or at least she thought they were transferable.  If Hans had recognized that she would be alive in St. Petersburg and he would not be facing 15 years in prison.

There but the grace of God go I.

Can you tell when you are being seduced for a visa?  We all like to be Monday morning quartebacks. We all think that we are brilliant and we can spot that.
The reality is different, it has been proven time and time again by guys being used as a mule, that they can't .

You need safeguards, otherwise you venture into this like jumping without a parachute.

With regard to the RW who gets into it with me, she would know what she is getting into explained to her in English and Russian, very explicitly. A lot of them would bail out, that is my intention to begin with, to filter them out; those who would be interested would be very serious about it and committed to a relationship.

The best prenups are the ones never used.

[ambach123]

Shadow, in USA, around 2002, 26 of the states in the Union adopted a " Uniform Code for Pre Nuptial Agreements".  As long as certain requirements of full disclosure are met, the Judge has no discretion to change the agreement unless there is something there which is against the law or pretains to the children.  

I already stated, if your state has not adopted the Uniform Code, get married in Nevada; you can adopt Nevada laws even if you live somewhere else.

The pre nups are at Judge's discretion in other states. Those should be avoided.