Risky Business

[Ronnie]

AJ buddy, you're doing it to me again..assigning me a position I didn't take.  If I had to lay a large bet, my bet would be that Elvira was bad but not as bad as Maxx protrays.  I'd bet that some of the stuff he's presented here is, at the very least, embellished.  Now, remember this is if I Had to bet on where the truth lay.  I'd also bet that Elvira was a very bad actor but I can't be so sure.

You can call me a skeptic and I gladly assume that role.  I'm skeptical of things that seem over the top.  So what set me off on this skepticism about Maxx's story, besides my natural curiosity?

One thing was this post..

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=2243.msg145441#msg145441

Another was his use of terms like "convicted," "found guilty of DV,"
and "prosecutor" when so such events or situations were involved.

When you see smoke you must assume there is fire and it made me wonder out loud, how much of the stuff about Elvira was true?  We've never heard from her, only him and he has cast doubt on his credibility by exaggeration in things we can discern, would he not also then exaggerate in things we can never know?

So no, AJ, I didn't form an opposite opinion of Elvira from you, I simply am saying maybe she was more normal than has been presented here and we should never form opinions about a person when all we hear are the stories told by the ex.  I know what my ex said about me and I would hate me too if that was all there was to go on.   

[Jumper]

Ronnie-
 I wasnt the only one that felt your position was a bit of a soapbox *details*  vs the relevence to risk, and Maxx and Elviras situation.
it was formed by your somewhat "in your face " posts over several pages to maxx ,me and,anyone else that supported the position she was likely a person insincere in her marriage and misusing the system.
and noone accused her of anything deeper or more sinister?

From your posts, you sure could have fooled us that you thought
she wasa bad actress in thier marriage!!
 

so in your own words,,
you're doing that to me again
(un)Clarifying a position, that you seemed to be on the complete other side of.

My best guess is if you made the above post initially ,
i wouldn't have  even replied? nothing to reply to.
 
Basically you now seem to be  saying
that  you think Elvira was a likely an actor and insincere,
 but not as *bad* as maxx portrayed,, and we can't know that 100% since we only have one side of the story..?

Seems a bit far  away  from what you were posting earlier..
but perhaps myself and others really just totally misunderstood your intent.

 Thinking Elvira was likely insincere in her marriage intent,
but having a bit of sceptism on of how *bad* she actually was ,
because the info is from her former husband..??

next are going to have a websters diffinition of *bad*?

In the context of a risky behavior thread
 
What level of "bad" is he portraying here?
that she was insincere! in her marriage is all i see him doing.

you say if you were a betting man youd bet she was a bad actor
in thier marriage.
 
isnt that part of the "bad" and "risk" the is thread is meant to illustate?
 i dint see maxx making  any other point , or depecting her any worse than just that.

Sorry all this other "fluff" fora couple pages, just appears a convenient way to bait maxx or question his honesty or fundementals of his story.
i find it odd.

You pick Maxxss story to the bones,
and we still have even *Ronnie the skeptic* betting she was a *bad actress* in thier marriage?

and that would indicate fraudulent immigration thru marriage.
The judge certainly alluded to that feeling as well.
a stickler like yourself would generally find that pretty "bad"?

How much *worse* is maxx depicting her?

enlighten me please..
 
i just cant grasp how you can "bet" that  she is a bad actress
(in this context that a very deciptful and selfish person,,using maxx horribly)
yet also think she wasnt as *bad* as maxx suggests

she either use  him horribly,
or was sincere in her intent, but decided it wasnt for her.
i dont find that many shades of grey in thier situation.

 

[ConnerVT]

I have no dog in this fight, but I agree with AJ -- *soapbox*

[ambach123]

I have learnt a lot from this thread. I have no reason to doubt Max, I really feel sorry for the poor guy.

In my opinion, women with children and divorced women should be avoided like the Black Plague of the middle ages, at least I did, and I am glad that I did.

Now that my search has ended, at least for now, with a 29 year old, beautiful,  never married woman from a small town in Western Ukraine, who according to her profile specifically did not want any Americans and had no interest in moving to America. I was able to pursuade her that it is not the country, it is our relationship that matters most.

FWIW, she can give the stunning brides of AJ and Steve a run for their money.

I would agree that one has to watch for red flags, and specially the body language. I would be watching those. At the very least it has instilled a lot of caution in all of us.

Thanks Max for sharing the story. I learnt a lot.

[ConnerVT]

And exactly *WHERE* in this thread do you read that your following statement had anything to do with Maxx's end result?

In my opinion, women with children and divorced women should be avoided like the Black Plague of the middle ages, at least I did, and I am glad that I did.

Your's is an ignorant comment, that will certainly make a number of people angry.

[ambach123]

I believe Max married a woman with several ex husbands and a child.

If the search is a means to an end, my ignorance must be a bliss.

[KenC]

Conner,
Don't worry about what Ambach wrote as he has done nothing yet except find a pen pal, knows nothing and his inexperienced advice usually emanates from an orifice other than his mouth.
KenC

[OlgaH]

In my opinion, women with children and divorced women should be avoided like the Black Plague of the middle ages, at least I did, and I am glad that I did.

What a nonsense!

Oh, guys, please don't beat me but I also would like to right a nonsense for a balance

Avoid a woman who in her about 30 has never been married and more over doesn't have children, because she probably has been rejected by all men and now she is waiting for a stupid one who will accept her.

Oi mommy, now I run away to hide myself




 

[groovlstk]

In my opinion, women with children and divorced women should be avoided like the Black Plague of the middle ages, at least I did, and I am glad that I did.

I think he believe if he repeats this crap again and again, someone out there just might believe his absurd logic.

FWIW the RW I dated in the US who were like Maxx's Elvira were all childless and the sham marriages they used to get what they wanted was their first. 

Now that my search has ended, at least for now, with a 29 year old, beautiful,  never married woman from a small town in Western Ukraine, who according to her profile specifically did not want any Americans and had no interest in moving to America. I was able to pursuade her that it is not the country, it is our relationship that matters most.

Congratulations Ambach, you're a resounding success story and I hope you'll now wear the mantle of wisdom to council other men on the fine art of finding a female penpal from a poor country. Not many are able to pull it off, so please share your secrets.

[Ronnie]

I know an AM who had an experience similar to maxx's.  Some of the descriptions are nearly the same as he described them to me.  One difference though is that the other AM's nightmare was with a childless 29 year old.  She was a K1 and it was the result of one  trip to FSU only.  (Are you listening Ambach?).  The difference of course is that not being married and her being on a K1 he moved her out of his house and into a hotel until the airline tickets come through.  I think she was here about about a week is all.

Ambach, I think a woman with a child is probably less likely to drag her child through a scam, than one without.  Previous marriage?  I wouldn't count that as a factor one way or another.  There are too many valid reasons for divorce and too many valid reason for not have ever been married.

I continue to believe that a woman or man who shows a noticeable lack of empathy is to be avoided.  Those are the one's who use and discard people like tp.

[Maxx2]

Something for Ambach

I wouldn't use my story as a reason to avoid divorced women. My case was quite the exception. The reality was that in eight years of marriage she divorced three times. First marriage lasted 4 years. She divorced him and married her second husband a month later. 2 years and one month later she divorced her second husband. She married her third husband three months later. She was 25 and he 21. She was six months pregnant. At the wedding her mother-in-law pictured on the right cried but not from gladness. She didn't want her son to marry her.



This marriage lasted 1 year and 11 months. After that she and he lived apart but were together somewhat. I am guessing with conjugal visits.

Why did I marry her with this background? Well, she kept it secret from me until after I married her. I wouldn't have gone all the way to Russia to marry a woman who had 3 divorces in 8 years of marriage.   

I had my detective talk with her three ex-husbands during my background investigation on her during the divorce. My divorce attorney thought it was a good idea.

Husband #1 "She wanted a better life and she said I didn't have high enough standards to get one. When I met her several years later while walking down the street I could tell that life had not gone for her as she hoped." ( I think this was a really good RM )

Husband #2 "I almost forgot about her. Please don't remind me of her" ( He was a well off new Russian man )

Husband #3 "I don't want her to return. I have a girlfriend now. If she did return she would come running back to me and I do not want that" ( From this statement I got the impression she never broke it off with him while we were married)

Anyway OlgaH tells it to you the best in my opinion.


I'll finish out this thread and maybe do the other one about what I learned about the agencies before I skee-daddle.


Maxx

     
   

[Jumper]

Ambach, I think a woman with a child is probably less likely to drag her child through a scam, than one without.  Previous marriage?  I wouldn't count that as a factor one way or another.  There are too many valid reasons for divorce and too many valid reason for not have ever been married.

I continue to believe that a woman or man who shows a noticeable lack of empathy is to be avoided.  Those are the one's who use and discard people like tp.

x2

Ambach-
i was previously married (widowed, but married none the less) and had a child.
 Most of the RW i met considered a father raising a baby/ a young boy by that time i was dating RW.. a positive, not some negative.
and i would view a divorced RW raising her child as not some liabilty ,but a positive as well.
children generally cause a maturity, and a significant sense in life about others..befoere yourself, as well as patience,all good trait to have in a marriage?
 in general, they normally make you a better person.

 Insincerety , or sincerity, is going to be one of the issues you face ,
wether the woman was ever previosusly married will not be the factor..
pleasse do LEARN from maxxs tale ,

Dont simply use small specifics from it to support a random criteria you used
(we all have them , and thats fine?
,but the reasons behind having a certain criteria should be well founded,,not off some random statistic?)

I'm not into *blondes*.. so that played naturally into my criteria,,lol
and is pretty silly, and based o nniothing more than personmal preference -
so i'm not poking fun at you.Everyone has their thoughts and ideals..

but I will plainly tell you, our lives during our initial marriage timeframe,  would have been smoother if she had prior experience in marriage or cohabitation, as well as a child.

( i think there is a whole thread somewhere debating this stuff , and those RW with childern vs without,that you could find  folks various thoughts on those issues,if interested )


Olga - LOL  

[BC]

AJ,

ambach should follow his own advice.

Divorced or not divorced, it's all between consenting adults.  I won't worry much about either of them.

A child on the other hand is a VERY different story.. I would feel bad for the child if he mucks it up.. -thinking about it I'd worry even if he does manage to pull something off longer term.


 

[Shadow]

I had no children as criteria, divorced or not was not an issue, and age range was rather closer to me than more distant.
Reasons were that I should expect that any woman over 25 would have had significant relationships. If she had been eager to marry but it went wrong, she might be divorced. As for children that was something personal. Myself not having been a parent, I wanted to start a family from the beginning and not get an instant one.
One can try to sell his own criteria as logic and recipe for success. But in reality it are just personal criteria, nothing more or less.

[ScottinCrimea]

I have learnt a lot from this thread. I have no reason to doubt Max, I really feel sorry for the poor guy.

In my opinion, women with children and divorced women should be avoided like the Black Plague of the middle ages, at least I did, and I am glad that I did.

Now that my search has ended, at least for now, with a 29 year old, beautiful,  never married woman from a small town in Western Ukraine, who according to her profile specifically did not want any Americans and had no interest in moving to America. I was able to pursuade her that it is not the country, it is our relationship that matters most.

FWIW, she can give the stunning brides of AJ and Steve a run for their money.

I would agree that one has to watch for red flags, and specially the body language. I would be watching those. At the very least it has instilled a lot of caution in all of us.

Thanks Max for sharing the story. I learnt a lot.

\

In my opinion, all women should avoid you like the black plague of the middle ages.  Every train wreck out there thought everything was wonderful at the point where you are in the process.  Only the fools thought at that point that they had succeeded.

[Maxx2]

I believe Max married a woman with several ex husbands and a child.

If the search is a means to an end, my ignorance must be a bliss.

Please ambach do not learn the wrong lessons from my story. My story is the extreme with an extreme women (see the preceding page).

Here is a list of 10 things I did wrong. I may turn this into a abbreviated Cliff's notes thread of don't do what I did.

1) Was in no condition to do it
2) Was an open book to all
3) Latched on to one woman
4) Quickly reasoned away red flags
5) Locked in with no easy way out
6) Forgave omission lies
7) Ignored my doubts
Analysis paralysis
9) Failed to carry out my surprise ‘attack’
10) Failed to fail quickly


Maxx

[BC]

Max,

ambach is going to do things his way or highway.

We're all on the road here, which makes me wonder about ambach.

What are you seeking by being here ambach?

[steviej]

What are you seeking by being here ambach?

Since its fun to play guessing games, here's my theory: Ambach has read and applied many of the "self help" books to his own life to good effect. He was broke and the future looked glum. He read some books about "how to succeed", or "make life work for you, not against you." .. .all that stuff. These books give recipes for success. Ambach has used these, and he had success. So, he is applying that mentality of rules and recipes to "how to find and marry the exact RW you want". He expects it will work for him. How's that for a theory? Thing is, none of that stuff works on ... WOMEN ... LOL ... especially FSUW ...   But, we'll see. I hope he tells us how all this works out, even if it all goes badly.

[ambach123]

Steve, you are one of the nicest guys on this board. You have a stunning wife; I hope to give you some competition there.

I had some criteria before I started searching, only a few months ago. Almost everyone, man or woman uses some criteria.

For marriage, I do not want a divorced woman, but then I don't want women who smoke, drink anything other than wine, swear,  show their underpants on line ( there are plenty, look through delphania website), the list is long including those who don't eat their vegetables, or who are anything more than size 4.

I don't see anything wrong in having any criteria, whatever these are for whaever reasons. I had my reasons, someone else could have their own reasoning.

I believe I have found what I was looking for; I wanted an attractive, a very affectionate, and conservative, never married woman who would keep her knees covered for the public. We have exchanged over 100 emails and have had daily telephone conversations, not to speak of exchange of dozens of photos. Mind you it takes her about an hour to write a reasonably long letter in English. She wants someone to love her and take care of her, and she wants to be in love with that person; she has no interest specifically in USA. We both get what we want. I would be naive to think that my financial capabilities did not have anything to do with her decision.

FWIW, she refused my offer to pay for her flight to Kiev from West Ukraine.

That is what most of the women want, they want to be loved, and taken care of and if young, they want children. Perhaps more importantly they want to love, respect and admire their man. Your worldly posessions or lack thereof, sure these count, they are part of you.

So whatever criteria I used is now moot.

I am very cognizant of the fact that all of this needs to transfer into real life. I read other posts, that is how some of them did it. I think that it would work,  but I do have some back up plans in case if it does not.

Even if it transfers to real life, search is but one phase of this pursuit. If the parties have a deep and passionate love and respect for each other, it works out otherwise, it would not.

I have made sure she eats her vegetables!

[Maxx2]

Big mistake you are making ambach is latching on to one woman. Chances are if you were to look around there would be another that that would interest you more. With "We have exchanged over 100 emails and have had daily telephone conversations, not to speak of exchange of dozens of photos." you have made it difficult find to this woman.

I remember some wise words from Bruce. He said that with long letter writing one builds his expectations too high. That he will find out more in the first 15 minutes of meeting her in regard to their mutual chemistry than in "100 emails, daily telephone conversations, dozens of photos." . It is better to just send a letter or two before going, meet them (several to a dozen) and do some sorting. With long letter writing before hand one has the tendency to force fit their choice. 

You should have a back up plan.

Also if I was in your shoes I would arrange to meet other women. Yes I know you have to do it on the sly as she has you pinned down with the daily phone calls. See what you got yourself into?


Maxx

[ambach123]

Thanks Max,  I realize the danger.

Nontheless there are many people here who are on the side of WOVO.

Another problem I see in just meeting them is that you know nothing about them and they know nothing about you.  You have to make a judgment whether to proceed further on the basis of a relatively brief meeting.

I don't underestimate a meeting, but you can tell a lot by a series of correspondence. The main point is if she is into you. Someone who takes the time and efforts to write in a foreign language in a series of letters speaks for itself.

[Jumper]

Ambach said

I wanted an attractive, a very affectionate, and conservative, never married woman who would keep her knees covered for the public

You know i try to help you.

and you may find such a woman
the FSU is NOT the best place to look for that personality type!!

29 yo "brown mouses " exist there,(a russian term, ask the RW here to define it)
  but are a rarety!! (an extreme rarety, i might have met one or two, ever)

You are seeking in a culture that indeed relishes being feminine ,
and dressing up,, and i na fashiion that might show thier knees in public, lol
 is a big part of enjoying that feminism (in that society,and many others)


as far as WOVO.. you already stated  you were writing and  contemplating visting 14,, that would likey by *visit time*,
 narrow down probably to about 8 ,
visting them first and meeting the already strongest candidate last.

thats W14V9....?

completely ok..but dont confuse us..

**************************************

Maxx
nice list, yiou really could teach a lot of new guy ssome great fundamentals you know.

i'm confused on your last one though? a typo?

10) Failed to fail quickly

not many of my failures have been slow, always happened pretty dang fast
so ids say i *fail quickly* when i fail..
 maybe that's a key to my success?
(just razzing you!)

[ambach123]

AJ, I meant showing skin in public profiles. I have a problem choosing a woman for wife who shows her underpants on line. I think the profiles should have modest pictures and many do.

So far as showing her knees, I see ton of women showing their knees and more in the mall. I have no problems with that at all; that is the norm here. If she is here, I will take her to Victoria's Secret myself.

[steviej]

Steve, you are one of the nicest guys on this board. You have a stunning wife; I hope to give you some competition there.

That would indeed be a great result. I know now from reading on RWD that 7 years ago, without having any idea of what I was really doing, I wandered through a minefield and inadvertently managed to miss stepping on any. For that I will be eternally greatful. I love my wife dearly, and I wish you the same.

I believe I have found what I was looking for; I wanted an attractive, a very affectionate, and conservative, never married woman who would keep her knees covered for the public. We have exchanged over 100 emails and have had daily telephone conversations, not to speak of exchange of dozens of photos.

Although I had no concern for whether the woman was ever divorced or not, the amount of letters and phone calls does sound strangely similar to how my wife and I got started ... 

Ambach, the single thing that attracts most of the slings and arrows from the other guys here is your seeming insensitivity to the feelings of the women themselves in the way you write your posts. (I think KenC commented on that a long time ago.) Of course, the only thing that matters in the end is that your own woman doesn't feel that way. And not just in the beginning, but for the long term. Strange as it may seem, the collective conscience of the men here on RWD is greatly disturbed when they think that an AM might (or has) cause any good RW distress or heartbreak, or to be used or treated like an object in any way. This is that yin and yang of "risky business", do everything to be wise, protect yourself and pursue with your eyes open; .. and, at the same time, be a man that the rest of us WMs feel proud of to represent us, and the newbies of the future, to these ladies.

[Maxx2]

AJ, I meant showing skin in public profiles. I have a problem choosing a woman for wife who shows her underpants on line. I think the profiles should have modest pictures and many do.

I take it you are looking for a conservative Russian woman?
Let me tell you a strange but true story about a American college professor and his conservative Russian wife.

The following story is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

I know this college professor, just turned sixty who has been married and divorced three times. So he does not have a low IQ or is clueless about women. So he decides to look East for a wife. He has a list, someone within 10 years or of his age, one with grown children, has a religious base and dresses conservatively. He isn't taking any chances. So he finds his Sasha.

Dear Maxx,
 
I've been in touch with Elena Garrett of Russian-detective.com after seeing her web site. She suggested I write you. About a month ago, my Russian wife of 10 months staged a "spousal abuse" scenario, complete with 911 phone call and purported "injuries" that were bogus (an old bruise, a swollen knee that often swells because of earlier surgery, etc.). I'm to have a hearing this coming Thursday, and it's going to be largely her word against mine.
 
Elena says that you have a similar problem, and I wonder what steps you may be taking that I haven't thought of to build a good defense. I believe that my wife has been "coached" into this "green card girl" behavior. I know who some of the friends are with whom she regularly talks, but I don't know how to put the dots together and identify friends who may be giving her instruction in this kind of scamming

Something that really worries me is that Sasha has always presented herself as being a very devout Orthodox Christian. She does lots of things that show her attachment, and I thought until recently, her faith. I would have never believed this of her, partially because I trusted her too much to imagine that she'd do such a thing, and partially because I wouldn't have ever considered the possibility that a person with her beliefs and religious practices would ever do such a thing as this. This is a mortal sin, obviously. Do you know if it's common for Russian women who seem to be devoted to the Orthodox church to so fundamentally go against the teachings of the church -- not to mention simple human decency? I'm sure her "faith" will be brought out in the trial, and I honestly don't know how to counter it. This really baffles me, too

.

So I point him and his attorney in the right direction to get good legal advise on how to set up a proper defense. He goes to trial. I get this from him.

Dear Maxx,
 
After three long days of trial, I've been found "not guilty." The judge gave a detailed explanation at the end of her ruling, and she made it clear that she doesn't believe Sasha's story. She also dismissed the civil protection complaint. It's a more complete exoneration than I'd dared to hope for.
 
Thanks so much for your help and support. Now, I'm looking forward to getting on with living.
 
I hope all's well.
 
Best,
"Joe"

So he moves on. From what I know he moved a few hundred miles away and is teaching in another university.

What happened to his traditional wife? (This is something "professor Joe" doesn't know but I know people there) She got a room down at the Orthodox church along with another RW named Lubov who was there under similar circumstances. They were interviewed by a local television station sitting on a bench outside the church on the hazards of being a MOB. Not long afterward Sasha calls 911 again. This time against Lubov. It seems Sasha managed to accumulate about $7000 in cash that she claimed Lubov stole. When the police arrived and started asking questions so did the priest. It ended up that both RW were asked to leave. What was going on was that Sasha worked at the same place Lubov worked, a massage parlor and she earned her money in cash.

So you never know about a woman unless you know people that know her and these people you know you know you can trust. 


Maxx