FSUW are more materialistic than Western Women

[GreginGa]

Jet
 Thats one of my points. In a dating tour setting this advice might seem to be a suitable approach. Also if you ask a girl to ride an overnight train to see you in Kiev or wherever then you should at least respect her more than just buying her a cup of coffee and a piece of cake. If a girl is riding a train into Kiev the least you can do is meet her at the platform and it shouldnt matter if its at 5AM. You may also want to reimburse her once she arrives. Thats what I would do anyways.

[Ronnie]

Ambach,

First I want to thank you for posting so much of your personal info here.  Most guys don't have the cajones to do that, so to those who rip into you over each word you post, I'd say lighten up.

I'm only writing this post because when I saw that you plan to meet 20 ladies in 10 days I had the same reaction that Blues Fairy had.  Her thoughts were that a storm was coming; mine were more along the lines of a train wreck.

Look, I'm AM while Blues Fairy is an RW, yet we had the same reaction to your plan.  BF's reaction was instinctive as a woman.  Mine was experiential. 

Your plan may make perfect sense and is logical.  I'm reminded of battle plans on the eve of a big battle; every angle covered, every contingency forseen and addressed, but a few minutes the first shot is fired, everything changes and the plan becomes worthless.

Here's something I never anticipated when I found myself in the middle of the kind of storm BF foresees.  You say that after the short meetings with these women, there will be a few you want to see again....on your next trip.  In my case, I had left the second day open so that I could meet right away with those with whom there seemed to be potential. 

When day two came, both ladies who had agreed less than 24 hours earlier to meet with me a second time, called the agency and cancelled.  The agency owner was baffled as the ladies said they liked me but didn't want to meet anymore.  The owner stared at the floor for a while, then he asked, "did you tell them you were meeting with others?" "Yes," I replied naively, "I felt I had to be honest. Shouldn't they understand I can't come all this way and only meet with one?"  All he could say was that it was a "big mistake" on my part to tell them.

Others have commented that you have already revealed to some ladies that you will be in Kyiv for 10 days.  Is each expecting to be with you for that same duration?  Thus, the concern about cost of apartment and wanting to meet you at the airport and show you around.  I once had a lady show me all around Odessa, and I do mean ALL around, keeping me under her wing until from morning until late in the evening.  She was not the first to take me these places, but I had to act like I was seeing them for the first time.   I hated it but that's how the game is played.

You and she have opposing interests.  You want to stay on schedule, she wants to destroy any opportunity for that.  Multiply that problem by 20 and you what's in store for you.

I would also observe that if each is expected to pay her own way to Kyiv and has been told not to plan to spend but the day there, you will likely have a very high rate of last minute cancellations and no-shows.  So much for the plan.

Just some friendly advice.

[Shadow]

Here is JB's advise, you can look it up in the archives.

I am paraphrasing it so this may not be exact.

" You don't volunteer that you are seeing other women, if asked you state that you would be meeting with other women, do not need to elaborate on that. Most RW would understand that you did not come all the way from USA just to see her ".

He goes on to say " Any relationship built on the internet is meaningless until you actually meet the lady ". As far as meeting for coffee, it is not only JB but other agency owners have said the same thing, " you keep your initial meeting short and sweet and terminate if you don't want to continue ".

Would you mind to answer the question if you have discussed this with Jack Bragg personally, or are just quoting his advise in your defense ?

[ScottinCrimea]

ambach, you seem to be basing everything you do on a few quotes from Jack Bragg, even though you freely admit you don't know the guy.  Even though every other person here has concerns about how you are going about it, you are hanging yoiur hat on the quotes of one guy, and in most cases completely misinterpreting them.

For example, as others have mentioned, he is in the tour business, where they go to one or two cities and arrange meetings with women in that location.  While it would be fine to invite a local woman to meet for coffee where all she has to do is hop on a bus and go across town, to expect a woman to travel hundreds of kilometers on her dime for a few precious moments with you is just not proper.

The other misquote that you seem to be so dependent on is his comment that if you meet 15, maybe 2 will remain that you are interested in seeing again.  This was an example he was giving to make a point, not specific words of advice on how to go about this.

I asked my wife about your specific scenario and how she would have responded.  She said if she knew your intent was to just meet her for coffee as one of a series and if all was well plan on a later meeting, she would have basically told you to [kiss] off.  When I told her that you mentioned women who were planning to come long distances at their expense to meet you, her comment was, "there are a lot of desperate women in Ukraine".  Maybe this is perfect for you, though - a desperate man seeking a desperate woman.

You've heard the opinions of several FSUW here, and now you have the opinion of another.  Maybe it's time to take down your Jack Bragg icon and listen to EVERYONE else who knows a little something about all this.

But by now it is obviious to everyone here that you had you mind set long before you asked for any advice and were only seeking approval of your plans, however misguided they are.  When you haven't gotten this, you have clung to your holy Jack Bragg quotes.

I, along with others, see the train wreck coming.  Even if you do meet all 20, those that you do not eliminate will eliminate you.  I suspect you will cling to one or two so that you can claim success.  If you should make it to a second trip to spend time with these women, extended time together will be a disaster because if you have problems maintaining relationships with AW, magnify that ten-fold with a RW, expecially based on your total cluelessness about eh culture and thinking of RW.

The worst case scenario would be if two desperate people manage to link up and you get her to the US on a k-1 visa.

You're diving in shark infested waters without a cage.

[LiveFromUkraine]

It is not cool to have women pay for traveling as well as take the time to travel for 15 minutes of coffee and cake.  I don't know of many women that would do that unless they didn't know the truth.



Thomas

[Shadow]

To Ambach....

As you like to quote Jack Bragg, there are some direct quotes you can find on this site:

When a man writes any woman for 3-4-5 months, I think she is expecting more than a two hour meeting, don't you?.  I know you believe in writing a lot for a long period of time as you did to your soon to be wife but if a guy is writing several ladies, this is not a good practice, and one our guys do not do.

Do you think the ladies meeting men at our parties do not think these men are not visiting many ladies?  Of course they know otherwise.  And the ladies with the marriage agencies we work with, they know these men are meeting several ladies.  So I think to be fair we need to discuss to these freshmen the different approaches and angles and how such could effect the thinking of different Russian women.

Yes, if you write one woman for 4 month, she will not be happy with you meeting other ladies.  Solution, don't write for four months if you want to meet many ladies.  You want to meet one, ok, write her for 4-5-6 months.

Men have all rights because they take a plane and pay for some tourist stay...
In these process, it is the woman who have the more to loose... she need to adaapt to a new culture, quit her actual job and be fully dependant from a men ( certainly during the first year )... once with you, her friend and familly are thousand kilometer away...

So, you $$$ or time is very little valuewhen compare to what RW loose when marrying a RW... So much guys think that that have all the right because they spend some money ( and usually money is spend on the agency, not the ladies )...

Foreign dating is not the same that when you buy a new car... in so case, you pay and the car have nothing to say... you seem very similar to these "pig" tourist who think that they can make everything in our country because they have pay a trip and some hotel...

You are surely so guy in shining armor who think that they save the tender russian princes... Middle-age periode is not existing in Russia... RW have strong character and they don't need your superiority complex or your pity...
It is maybe a concurrence problem... it have already happen that agencyA register like a customer on agencyB... and buy the contact information from the more interesting ladies... of course, the IMBRA have allow several agency for not give the contact information...

Comments ?

[steviej]

For myself, my inner "gentleman's instinct" tells me that I would not let a woman pay her own travel expenses in a situation like this. (If you don't have the money to deal with that, you may be trying to cut the balony too thin in this game.) If she's just taking a short bus ride across the city, maybe it doesn't matter. But anyone coming in from out of town, I would pay. Not in advance (don't send money in advance), but I would make sure she understood before I came that I insist on paying her travel and any living expenses to see me.

I can understand the desire to be efficient. It's a long journey and one would like to meet several ladies. However, I'd like to suggest a slightly different mind set: instead of focusing on "most of these women, if not all, will NEVER be the woman I marry." Rather, think of it as "one of these women is going to be the woman I fall in love with and marry." I think if you think of it that way, instead of worring about the ones that "want a free dinner", you'll be thinking, "how would I like my future wife to be treated." And treat the ladies accordingly.

Wouldn't you want her to remember, right from the very beginning, about how impressed she was with you, how considerate, what a gentleman, and so forth? Imagine that you met with 10 ladies. Imagine that 7 of them never had any serious intention toward you at all, and are hunting for the "free dinners", or whatever evil things they will supposedly try to do. So what? So you waste some dough on dinner with a few uninterested ladies. There were still 3 wonderful ladies who are potential future romantic relationships, one who might even become your wife. I'd say, that's a good result, and worth the time and effort. You don't know in advance who is who.

Now about these "desparate" women in Ukraine: what do these women want? To steal your money? For most, no. They want the kind of high quality man, reliable, responsible, capable of supporting a wife and family, that would love them and marry them. They cannot find these kind of men in their home towns. What could be better than that? Here you are, a wonderful, responsible man who wants a special woman to marry, ... and they want the same! It's so important to them, and what they think is important in life, that they are willing to get on a slow train, travel several hours, to meet you, hoping that that's the kind of man you are, and hoping you will think she's pretty and nice. That's just a wonderful opportunity and anyone of those ladies could be the one you fall in love with.

So, be sensible, remember there's no magic formula, always be a gentleman, and don't forget the true purpose: finding love. Isn't that amazing? You have accepted the challenge to find love. It is, at its core, a very romantic proposition, despite all the messy edges around this. And you know what else? It works! Of course there have been some horror stories, some "crash & burn" experiences, but there have been many more happy endings where one man and one woman walk off together, hand in hand, down the road of life. It's almost a miracle

[Mod3]

MsMoby and LivefronUkraine, do not continue to derail the topic.
You discussion is placed in the NHB part, if you feel the need to continue.
If you attack each other outside of this topic, expect actions.
The ignore button is an option I strongly advise.

[anjutka]

So, be sensible, remember there's no magic formula, always be a gentleman, and don't forget the true purpose: finding love.

very good advice

[ambach123]

Thanks for some of the comments, specially Steve.

I am rethinking my plan, and hope to whittle down my list to no more than ten.

Ideally there should be no more than five on the list, and I should get to know all of them before I go there through emails and telephones. My problem is that very few of them want to communicate; they insist on meeting first. After two emails they write " When you are coming to town, let me know and I would like to meet with you ".

I was thinking of meeting more as a starting point than an ending point.

It is my impression that they have developed this attitude because they may have learned from their own or others' experiences that American men usually never come. The agency owners in Kiev tell me that very few AM are coming, mostly it is European men who are going there.

I can understand that there is economic downturn in USA and other issues with the FSU brides that has chilled this pursuit for AM.

[GreginGa]

I'd be very skeptical of some of those agencies in Kiev. Most of those girls have been on the first 2 or 3 pages for years. I know one lady that had been 44 for the past 3 years. My friend went over to see her. She was a doctor,he was a doctor and he saw a match made in heaven. The only problem was that she was a straight out bitch. We all took a trip to Yalta together. She complained about the plane seat,the car ride to Yalta,the car we were riding in.the room,the view and everything else she could think of. My wife had talked to her a few time son the phone and was always friendly and cordial with her. Once we arrived she never engaged in conversation the entire week. I ended setting Steve up with the girl at the front desk of the hotel we were staying. He never spoke with the Svetlana doctor chick again whose photographs seemed to not only be touched up but more photoshoped.

Steve ended up going back to visit the front desk girl 3 days after she wrote to him. He couldnt even remember what she looked like when I booked his ticket. I told him to find the prettiest girl at the airport and that would be her. She was a real sweetheart as well,but things didnt take and it was all on my friend.

Those women on those agency sites have dated so many guys. Find you one walking down the street and go from there. If 20 is your magic number there is no way in hell it would be with agency girls from Kiev.

[Wienerin]

Maybe you said you didn't want to spend a lot of money........

Maybe a $100.00 is a lot of money to her.......

You both maybe have different opinions on what a lot of money is.

It is hard to tell since we only seeing what she writes you and not what you are writing her....

I agree with you that what is "a lot of money" to different people may differ also a lot. But the sad thing is that with the prices there - and I only can be talking about StPetersburg and Bilnius, where my sons live with their families, $100 is definitely not "a lot". In fact, to me here with my salary (quite above the average) $100 is more money than it's in StPetersburg.

My brother is over there now on a visit, and the other day they went with my younger one for a stroll through book shops and later for a lunch in a low price range restaurant - sort of International Pancake with a Russian twist. It was around $30 for two of them. This doesn't sound like much - that's what we would expect to pay in a similar place here, but the average wage in SPb is $500. And I pay a little more than $120 for utilities for my 1600sq 6 room condo, and they pay $110 for their 1000 3rooms.

Go figure...

[LiveFromUkraine]

I agree with you that what is "a lot of money" to different people may differ also a lot. But the sad thing is that with the prices there - and I only can be talking about StPetersburg and Bilnius, where my sons live with their families, $100 is definitely not "a lot". In fact, to me here with my salary (quite above the average) $100 is more money than it's in StPetersburg.

My brother is over there now on a visit, and the other day they went with my younger one for a stroll through book shops and later for a lunch in a low price range restaurant - sort of International Pancake with a Russian twist. It was around $30 for two of them. This doesn't sound like much - that's what we would expect to pay in a similar place here, but the average wage in SPb is $500. And I pay a little more than $120 for utilities for my 1600sq 6 room condo, and they pay $110 for their 1000 3rooms.

Go figure...

Just recently we spent about 3 months in India.  When we returned to Ukraine the prices on many things doubled.  All in the span of 3 months. 


Thomas

[Ravens9273]

Just read this thread and truly this is a person that cannot be helped and question is do we want too?

We all have our own reasons why we embarked on this quest. However how you slice it we also know there are a few who begin this quest just out of the fact local Women want nothing to do with them.

After seeing what type of person we are dealing with here I would have to say the above is true. He starts the thread saying FSUW are more Materialistic yet he embarks on this journey and continues to do so.

I think this is a person we should not help. By not helping him we are helping the poor young ladies he will be meeting.
I think at this point and time we should hope for the obvious train wreck for the purpose to protect the ladies he is going to meet so they run for the hills.

These 20 ladies should be the ones to focus on here. Let the train wreck happen so none of these ladies get stuck with him.

[Shadow]

I am happy to see that he is actually re-evaluating his plan. With some patience and may be the occasional hit of the clue bat we might shape him up in time for his trip. 

[Gator]

My first trip to Kiev six years ago.  Never read any RW forum beforehand.


I sent $200 to one interesting woman from southern Ukraine to visit me.   She "showed" after taking a 24-hour train ride for $10 and buying a mobile with the remaining $190.      Did not bother me. 

We failed to connect, so I went to Plan B - a Kharkiv woman.  She said she would come if I promised to reimburse her travel arrangements.  I agreed, and we had a great time together.  Interesting, I learned that an AM had the year before never reimbursed her.  Yet, she trusted enough to try again.  Some of these women are full of hope and trust.


What I am saying is that Ambach, you may need to send $100 or so to a couple of UW living far from Kiev.  Just spend enough time on the phone that you feel comfortable with sending them travel money or with promising to reimburse.  It takes a lot of talking to reach a comfort level.   

[mark2353]

Your last thread with the reconsideration and explaining the types of ladies you been writing has very interesting information. I too have been writing lots of ladies mostly from EM and many fell through the cracks with time. Personally I have my own weed out process. Which is I will not travel until I am comfortable with the lady or ladies. If she is setting the rule I will meet you next week!
Maybe that is one of the ladies you really want to avoid? With all the rush and digging in their monies how do you know they will even show? (if money is as tight as everyone is mentioning on this board then ???). You might be at coffee by alone!
One lady that I emailed for a while, was into the fun of weekends in Moscow!.
I have talked to a few over skype and it was automatic drop. Maybe you will have opposite experience but...  I read a beautiful thread about one of the members that meet through messenger and eventually meet month or two later!
Perhaps you should take some time sorting out and getting to know a few and from there start the get to know trip!
Best of luck to a fellow shopper (hopefully my trip will work out and  )
mark