Epidemic of Cold Feet

[Ooooops]

There is an ever so slight difference between controlling who comes into your house and controlling who leaves.

Make people to walk barefoot while departing USA is a joke and adds nothing to the national security. 

[Ronnie]

Make people to walk barefoot while departing USA is a joke and adds nothing to the national security. 

It's not just departing the country..odd you should say that...it's entering the country and flying within the country.  I dont' think the US is alone either.

 We were fine with not checking shoes until some genius decides to turn his sneakers into a bomb.  Now they've got cellphones that are .22 cal. guns.

Action causes reaction.  And you criticize the normal and sane reaction to an abnormal and insane action?  Where does that put you?

[Ooooops]

It's not just departing the country..odd you should say that...it's entering the country and flying within the country.  I dont' think the US is alone either.

I know that, but we were talking about international politics here, so I didn't mention domestic flights.    And yes, US is pretty much alone in that ridiculous shoes-off escapade...    One other time I've encountered it in Philippines, but at the same time they had no metal detector, just male and female officers putting down passengers.   Go figure.

[Ooooops]

We were fine with not checking shoes until some genius decides to turn his sneakers into a bomb.  Now they've got cellphones that are .22 cal. guns.

Have you heard the expression about the bomb not falling twice into the same hole?   Some geniuses drove airplanes into Twin Towers, so now we have to stop flying all together?   Get them at the source where they build those bombs, not at the other end.   That's why so much taxpayers' money go into the military and intelligence.   Making people to take their shoes off is a farce and gives just a false sense of security instead of the real thing.

Action causes reaction. 

Exactly.   That's why USA is where it is now... 

[Ronnie]

Have you heard the expression about the bomb not falling twice into the same hole?    

No, I can't say that I have.  As an Air Force veteran I can tell you many bombs can fall in the same hole.  Where did you come up with that nonsense and what is it supposed to mean?  Once planes are hijacked it won't happen again.  Gee, maybe you should work at the NSA.  Strike that.

Get them at the source where they build those bombs, not at the other end. 

I see, so let's just tell them, "If you build it, you can bomb."
Brilliant!

  Making people to take their shoes off is a farce and gives just a false sense of security instead of the real thing.

An the "the real thing" would be?......  Drum roll please...ooops got the answer to all the world's problems...where's that drumroll?"

Exactly.   That's why USA is where it is now... 

................................?  Which is.....?  Oh, I forgot...it's where you're not.

[Ooooops]

  Oh, I forgot...it's where you're not.

I'm still an American citizen even if I reside somewhere else for the time being.   

And I'm sure it's much easier and cheaper to hire an extra dumb airport worker who takes the tray with shoes from travelers then go and find people and places where bombs are build and plots conceived.    You, as a veteran, should know that.

[docetae]

No, I can't say that I have.  As an Air Force veteran I can tell you many bombs can fall in the same hole.  Where did you come up with that nonsense and what is it supposed to mean?  Once planes are hijacked it won't happen again.  Gee, maybe you should work at the NSA.  Strike that.
I see, so let's just tell them, "If you build it, you can bomb."
Brilliant!

An the "the real thing" would be?......  Drum roll please...ooops got the answer to all the world's problems...where's that drumroll?"
................................?  Which is.....?  Oh, I forgot...it's where you're not.

If you are a Veteran from army you should know that the majority of security threats are coming from the inside, this is where security must be done.
I have worked for one Airline post 9/11 and I can tell you security does not exist, it is just an illusion...What are security clearance done for people cleaning planes ? for those who bring foods on board ? How many containers are really scanned when they enter harbors ?

 I have not been in army and will never be (I was conscientious objector during my draft in France) but I have good knowledge of army (close family was at very high rank)  It seems to me this is the same old talk, if you are not with us, you are against us... a black and white view of the world that is describing a reality that is not mine.

[Ooooops]

  It seems to me this is the same old talk, if you are not with us, you are against us... a black and white view of the world that is describing a reality that is not mine.

I like you.      Your fiancee (or wife?) is a lucky girl! 

[groovlstk]

I know that, but we were talking about international politics here, so I didn't mention domestic flights.    And yes, US is pretty much alone in that ridiculous shoes-off escapade...    One other time I've encountered it in Philippines, but at the same time they had no metal detector, just male and female officers putting down passengers.   Go figure.

When is the last time you flew domestically in Russia? Last few times I did I was forced to remove my shoes but at least they gave passengers little baggies to put on their feet lest their fellow travelers laugh at their cheap socks. 

[Ooooops]

When is the last time you flew domestically in Russia?

Errrr...   about 16 years ago...      Ok, so it makes US, Philippines and Russia.   Great bunch... 

Last few times I did I was forced to remove my shoes but at least they gave passengers little baggies to put on their feet lest their fellow travelers laugh at their cheap socks. 

Were those baggies disposable or not?   I bet they recycle them.   

[groovlstk]

Errrr...   about 16 years ago...      Ok, so it makes US, Philippines and Russia.   Great bunch... 

Were those baggies disposable or not?   I bet they recycle them.   

Maybe, I remember my last flight was to Sochi and I was wearing sandals, so I simply removed them and walked through the detector in my bare feet, many of the Russian people around me made faces like they thought there was something wrong with me and my wife (then my gf) scolded me

I remember reading that after this policy was instituted, designer socks became the rage in Moscow.

[Ooooops]

I remember reading that after this policy was instituted, designer socks became the rage in Moscow.

I don't believe it because in Russian tradition it's customary to take off your shoes and change into "tapochki" when you enter flat or home.   

[steviej]

If you are a Veteran from army you should know that the majority of security threats are coming from the inside, this is where security must be done.
I have worked for one Airline post 9/11 and I can tell you security does not exist, it is just an illusion...What are security clearance done for people cleaning planes ? for those who bring foods on board ? How many containers are really scanned when they enter harbors ?

 I have not been in army and will never be (I was conscientious objector during my draft in France) but I have good knowledge of army (close family was at very high rank)  It seems to me this is the same old talk, if you are not with us, you are against us... a black and white view of the world that is describing a reality that is not mine.

I agree that the security threat is inside. The single most sweeping and important security policy we could implement, and in fact the cheapest is to never admit any Muslim to the country. Secondly, we would make sure that any Muslim that is here now leaves when their visa expires.  The people that attacked the World Trade Center were not in Baghdad, they were here. How did they get here? We let them in. We let in thousands of Muslims a month. To think that there is any kind of a screening process that can determine the current or future risk of each of these persons is absurd.

[Ronnie]

I agree with Stevie on the absurdity of failing to profile passengers due to political correctness.  But you can bet that the minute we stop checking grandmothers, the bad guys will recruit a Sara Jane Moore who'll happily kill innocent people because she doesn't like American foreign policy, or more likely, wants to make a name for hereself. 

They will try to exploit any and every weak spot.  That's why it's ridiculous to suggest we should stop airport security methods.   The entrances to the gates are the choke point and it would be foolish to close our eyes to that fact.  It appears some here would have us do exactly that.

 

[Ronnie]

Oooops, your new avatar is a reminder of the prediction that one of the booming businesses in the future will be tattoo removal.

[ScottinCrimea]

If you are a Veteran from army you should know that the majority of security threats are coming from the inside, this is where security must be done.
I have worked for one Airline post 9/11 and I can tell you security does not exist, it is just an illusion...What are security clearance done for people cleaning planes ? for those who bring foods on board ? How many containers are really scanned when they enter harbors ?

 I have not been in army and will never be (I was conscientious objector during my draft in France) but I have good knowledge of army (close family was at very high rank)  It seems to me this is the same old talk, if you are not with us, you are against us... a black and white view of the world that is describing a reality that is not mine.

We can add Mexico to the list of those requiring one to remove their shoes as I recall running through the airport in Mexico City carrying mine because I didn't have time to put them back on.

As far as the security measures for those who clean planes, I have a close relative who does exactly that and I have seen these measures personally.  Employees are required to pass an FBI background and fingerprint check, must take a course in security and pass a test.  A badge must be worn at all times and secure areas cannot be entered without a badge and security code.  For any international flights, the cleaners and food deliverers cannot even enter the plane until it has been cleared by a security team.  I was surprised to learn how many attempts at hijacking, sabotage, etc. have been thwarted that we never hear about.  We haven't had any new incidents in a very long time, so the measures must be working.  That's not an illusion.

[docetae]

We can add Mexico to the list of those requiring one to remove their shoes as I recall running through the airport in Mexico City carrying mine because I didn't have time to put them back on.

As far as the security measures for those who clean planes, I have a close relative who does exactly that and I have seen these measures personally.  Employees are required to pass an FBI background and fingerprint check, must take a course in security and pass a test.  A badge must be worn at all times and secure areas cannot be entered without a badge and security code.  For any international flights, the cleaners and food deliverers cannot even enter the plane until it has been cleared by a security team.  I was surprised to learn how many attempts at hijacking, sabotage, etc. have been thwarted that we never hear about.  We haven't had any new incidents in a very long time, so the measures must be working.  That's not an illusion.

A simple question... background check means nothing...in term of security clearance, can you give an equivalent of what is required ?

[Gtex]

Docetae;
(IIRC) you are in the travel industry and so have first hand knowledge of the incomplete and porous nature of our airport security.  Scott has experience here that is different, to be expected.  All can agree, you are right, it is not perfect and we are not safe.  This is not a good reason to give up the effort, because it is difficult.

Oooops;
Planes have been hijacked since the mid 1960's.  I do not believe you would seriously suggest we abandon all efforts to protect ourselves. 

These security efforts, imperfect though they may be, try to protect us all. We need to support it with understanding until a better time comes and we do not have to take these precautions.  In the mean time, it works some.  Many plots have been foiled and lives saved.  Those airport security people deserve respect (and cooperation), they are trying to "serve and protect."  Texas to Chicago, I removed my shoes both ways last week.  Gladly.

[Ooooops]

Oooops;
Planes have been hijacked since the mid 1960's.  I do not believe you would seriously suggest we abandon all efforts to protect ourselves. 

Of course, not!   I just don't think shoes got to do anything with security.   What if next weirdo will hide explosives up his a$$?   Will it mean that every passenger will be given anal probe after that?   

[Gtex]

Oooops;
Probably not and the mere thought is unpleasant.  It would lead to Xrays most likely.  The shoe bomber is in jail, if it had worked they would do it again, as it did not work, they would have tried again.  Remember, 911 was the second attempt on the Trade Centers; they are not above repeating themselves.  It is inconvenient for all of us, at least there is equality in discomfort. And the shoe bomb has not been successfully attempted again.  So, maybe removing shoes  works!

[mark2353]

I have not travel in the last couple of year but in 2002, I have to suttle between Orange county (CA) and San Jose. We had several Iranians in our group at that time. They would even joke about never stopped. In 6 months of shuttle back and forth every week they never were asked to the side. I was and so was a dutch man (60s), americans!. But they really fear the discrimination of choosing those people out of the line.  The whole security thing was a joke!

Well Ooooh putting explosives in body cavity is not new, that is the reason that the Israelis body search at random! We worked with a poor palestinian gentlemen that was searched several times because of his mess up reservations. Just as he was clear he had to go outside the secured area and go through the whole process again.(I have to admit is was funny when he told the story, he even laugh about it!).
Oh! some of the new detection system will detect that!They "sniff" for ceartain chemicals.

[ScottinCrimea]

A simple question... background check means nothing...in term of security clearance, can you give an equivalent of what is required ?

I don't know the details, but I do know that it is more involved than a typical employment backgrond check.

It's a simple thing to complain about something but something quite different to offer a solution, so I would like to ask particularly mark2353, docetae and Ooops what what specific new or different security measures they would propose.  We've already heard from steviej. A bit extreme, but at least he offers something.

[mark2353]

First I do not have a problem with the shoes off policy! What really bother me is that they are checking the wrong races due to fear of discrimination! Pick on the people that did the damage not the locals( come on do not be idiots!).
Since you ask I would put in place a system similar to the Israeli where people in the line are interviewed! If you do not answer right you will be further question...
Right after 9/11 a team was brought over the team gave a lecture and the US government said we are not going to do that! How many planes where ever stole or damaged out of Israel? none! how many do you think would like to try?
I was in line with a neurologist in Frankfurt the lines were very long.. So we started talking and he was was from Israel and going back, his comment was well at home is worse but we never have a incident!
I think all on the board will agree that is not the issue of taking off the shoes, but the lack of security! It is false! that is my opinion. However in a few weeks I will be on international and will be jumping through those same hurdles.
I have worked in secured places and had to explain 10 yrs of my life(and verified for 1yr) prior to having a real office. I do not think anyone employed in a airport has level but perhaps they should due to the new nature of their jobs.

[Ooooops]

So, maybe removing shoes  works!

May be yes, may be not.      But I'd like to see some more intelligent measures to stop terrorists than that...    I really like America and would love to see it to prosper and live happily ever after.   Unfortunately, some politicians have rather different ideas, judging by their actions... 

[mark2353]

I really like America and would love to see it to prosper and live happily ever after.   Unfortunately, some politicians have rather different ideas, judging by their actions... 

Ooooops! I said it before you are one quick lady and your other half is very lucky!
could not agree more!