Abortion Issues

[Mamma D]

Do you really want to go here?

I remember a time when My doctor and I pleaded with the state to
allow a 12 year-old to be aborted.

She was gang raped and left to die in -10 degree weather in a field...... She had sever frost bite and for a time, we were not even sure she would live....Then she turned up pregnant .......The state took over, and month after month, we saw and cared for this child.

when she was nearly due.....They shipped her 2,000 miles away, Delivered a living child....and put it out for adoption.

She never saw her baby or even knew what it was, and less than 6 months later killed herself

Who was right?  Who was wrong? I don't know. But I can still see her face and the tears........ nearly fifty later.

I believe that every person should have control over their body..... When you make a women bare a child she doesn't want.... you are deciding her future, and the child's..... If she keeps it ... then she has a life sentence, an obligation to care and provide for it (often alone). If you let it be adopted......( the extreme act of love in many cases) She  never forgets.... And often an unwanted and kept child will wear many scars.

During my years in office practice, I saw all of these ..... And it was my experience that many men simply walk away.... They do not carry a child inside their body for 10 months..... the bonding is absent and apart from their emotions.

I do not tell you, right or wrong  .... but Please do not be a party to a situation where a women must choose.

Your choice should be between you and your GOD.......

[Ooooops]

So how many hours is the airplane ride from wherever to Bangkok?

3.5 hours from Hong Kong to Phuket, not too bad to get to this.   

[Ooooops]

Is it necessary to be rude to all the male members here?

Was I?  Why?  Did you recognize yourself as a negligent father?  And if it's not you then why do you take offense in my comment?   I understand that sometimes marriage doesn't work and it's better to divorce than live together "for the sake of the children", but in Russia I've seen too many examples when fathers simply vanish after the divorce and never see their kids or help raising them.   And that bothers me a lot.

[Ooooops]

There is not a simple black-and-white answer - IMO.

Of course not, and I'm sorry if I came across a bit harsh...   I know guys who stay great Dads to their kids after divorce and I praise them for that.   After all kids suffer the most in these cases...

[Ooooops]

Oksana! $160,000 , numerous court appearances, and physcological tests ( the kids, her and me) and 5 years later I still only get to see my kids when the ex is threatened with contempt of court.. which of course would be damaging to the kids..

Sorry to hear that, Mark...      

[Ooooops]

One question though.  Suppose the woman has consulted with her husband and they haven't arrived to any agreement.  Woman absolutely wants an abortion and man absolutely opposes it.  Both parties have presented equally valid arguments.

Who should have the last word in the matter?

You know my answer - woman should.   But then she also should be prepared to divorce that husband as well... 

[docetae]

For me, there is no question... this can be only the choice of the woman. I have lived both case... the last pregnancy of my ex was not wished and I let her decide what to do. She wished (as I hoped) to keep the baby... two months after we learned it is babies Our relation was already starting to be bad at the time, today children are with me 2/3 of the time, and I can not even think to have not my babies.

Because they are born, I have seen them on screen, I have heard they hearts before, I have seen them appeared to the world and I care and will care for them all my life.

But the time the baby is just an idea, where no emotional bond exists, I can not understand how someone can decide for someone else about her body.

I don't talk about this minority of people who use abortion as an contraceptive method, they are very rare in fact. I have seen my step sister having abortion. She was sick from this during weeks.

Abortion is a painful choice given to women and only them must decide.

[Ooooops]

What a terrible story, Mamma D...       

[steviej]

What a terrible story, Mamma D...       

Probably just another glurge .. this stuff is all over the place on the internet. My own mother sends me these things with tears in her eyes, and I have keep explaining .. well,  ... never mind

BF asked the question if the woman is pregnant and one wants it and the other does not, who gets to decide? That is a tough question and there are two categories: what if they are married? Vs. what if they are not? In general I'm willing to say (in the unmarried case anyway) that the woman can decide, EXCEPT she must renounce any future financial claims against the man for child support. But women won't do this. They want it both ways and for now they have it both ways. If the man wants the baby and the woman does not, she can abort it without consequences or recourse from the man. If the man does not want it, and the woman does, she can keep it, AND come back to court to attach his wages for 18 years for child support. This is unfair IMHO.

[Ooooops]

the baby and the woman does not, she can abort it without consequences or recourse from the man. If the man does not want it, and the woman does, she can keep it, AND come back to court to attach his wages for 18 years for child support. This is unfair IMHO.

I've already answered that question before - if man doesn't want a baby he should think twice or, better,  gazillion times before having sex.   

[Ronnie]

I agree with you, but only in case when woman and man are truly a COUPLE (I see you like to use capital letters to drive the point home ).   If woman has her doubts then...  well, you already know what happens.

One question though.  Suppose the woman has consulted with her husband and they haven't arrived to any agreement.  Woman absolutely wants an abortion and man absolutely opposes it.  Both parties have presented equally valid arguments.

Who should have the last word in the matter?

Gee, that's really a tough one.  Let me think.  Okay try this: Do like Congress and delay the vote until the child comes to term, then feed her for a few more months until she can understand the question, then ask her to vote.

Huh?  Silly you say?  Why? 

Because you already know what the answer would be? 

Hmmm, then maybe this debate isn't all that complicated.

[Admin]

Probably just another glurge .. this stuff is all over the place on the internet. My own mother sends me these things with tears in her eyes, and I have keep explaining .. well,  ... never mind

BF asked the question if the woman is pregnant and one wants it and the other does not, who gets to decide? That is a tough question and there are two categories: what if they are married? Vs. what if they are not? In general I'm willing to say (in the unmarried case anyway) that the woman can decide, EXCEPT she must renounce any future financial claims against the man for child support. But women won't do this. They want it both ways and for now they have it both ways. If the man wants the baby and the woman does not, she can abort it without consequences or recourse from the man. If the man does not want it, and the woman does, she can keep it, AND come back to court to attach his wages for 18 years for child support. This is unfair IMHO.

Stevie,

I've been an open admirer of MammaD for years now. She is one of the most honest and forthright persons I have even 'met' on the 'net.

The story above was her real-life experience, as I understand it. If MammaD says it is so - you can count on it.

BTW - the beautiful little girl you see in her photo avatar is her granddaughter. If you search the records here, you will find the series of posts in which we learned of her drowning at age 11.

MammaD is one of a kind.

Just FYI

- Dan

[Ooooops]

Mamma D is one of a kind.

This is so true!   And she gave me a great quote that I'm gonna use a signature from now on.   

[steviej]

Stevie,

I've been an open admirer of MammaD for years now. She is one of the most honest and forthright persons I have even 'met' on the 'net.

The story above was her real-life experience, as I understand it. If MammaD says it is so - you can count on it.

BTW - the beautiful little girl you see in her photo avatar is her granddaughter. If you search the records here, you will find the series of posts in which we learned of her drowning at age 11.

MammaD is one of a kind.

Just FYI

- Dan

Dan, thanks. And I didn't mean to imply anything about her sincerity. My own mother is one of the most honest and caring people you could ever meet. Her friends forward this glurge stuff to her, and she thinks its real (as do her friends - I don't know who/how one of them gets it originally), and tells others about it. She herself is not making anything up. Even their own ministers are reciting this stuff in their sermons at church.

[BillyB]

I agree with you, but only in case when woman and man are truly a COUPLE (I see you like to use capital letters to drive the point home ).   If woman has her doubts then...  well, you already know what happens.

One question though.  Suppose the woman has consulted with her husband and they haven't arrived to any agreement.  Woman absolutely wants an abortion and man absolutely opposes it.  Both parties have presented equally valid arguments.

Who should have the last word in the matter?

That question should've been answered before marriage. I bet most people getting married never discuss the "What if's" on hot topics?

[UTRO]

Mama D.... you are a voice of Reason and Civility . You speak from Experience.....
By the way, the Canadian Government has decided to honour Dr. Henry Morgentaler, the Original LEGAL Abortion Physician who gave Women a Choice to speak for themselves about their bodies, The Order of Canada. The Highest standing Honour available to any Canadian. May I also add that Dr. Morgentaler and Canada were the First to accept American Woman as Safe Patients as well.

[Jet]

EXCEPT she must renounce any future financial claims against the man for child support. But women won't do this.

Obviously you don't have much experience with this  once the child is born, most states are MORE than happy to step in as the aggrieved party, even when the mother wants no part of it. In a somewhat recent landmark case a sperm donor for a lesbian couple's envitro fertilized child was ordered by the court to immediately start paying close to a thousand dollars per month in child support after they applied for public assistance (the child was 11 yrs old at the time of application). The lesbian had renounced all financial claims and the donor had renounced all parental rights, through attorneys prior to the sperm donation. No good deed goes unpunished   

[Jet]

That question should've been answered before marriage. I bet most people getting married never discuss the "What if's" on hot topics?

Maybe not, but the smart ones do 

[Misha]

An interesting article: http://www.rferl.org/Content/Abortion_Remains_Top_Birth_Control_Option_Russia/1145849.html.

[Ronnie]

[youtube=425,350]http://youtube.com/watch?v=WJI_rlar68M[/youtube]

Faith Hill: Born and put up for adoption in 1967.
Roe v. Wade: 1973

Thank God!
But that one was too close for comfort.  Now, who knows what beauty, brains or talent America and the world has denied itself since then. 

Ronnie

[Ooooops]

Now, who knows what beauty, brains or talent America and the world has denied itself since then. 

Would be interesting to see some criminal records - how many of those in jail were put for adoptions...      Or wouldn't it be better if some of them were not born at all?   

[Ronnie]

Would be interesting to see some criminal records - how many of those in jail were put for adoptions...      Or wouldn't it be better if some of them were not born at all?  

So let me understand your thinking.  We should execute people who have something in common with a criminal.  Interesting way to elimated everyone.  Then we would have the world according to "ooops."
How appropriate.

[mark2353]

Would be interesting to see some criminal records - how many of those in jail were put for adoptions...      Or wouldn't it be better if some of them were not born at all?   

Now I understand why the Russians liked Stalin! He was out to clean the Russian population! and any other in his path!
Hooray! We are back to 1939! Do I here a Heil....!
Lets get back to reality! Please!! We can eliminate a Einstein, like Charles Manson.. We never know, perhaps that is part of the mystery of birth and every child and adult, given the right environment most can people can succeed.
 

[Ooooops]

So let me understand your thinking. 

Try again.     You gave an example of a wonderful human being who wasn't aborted and now makes our lives better.    I gave you opposite examples of terrible human beings who were not aborted and making our lives awful.   Remember Forrest Gump?  "Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you gonna get"  (c)   

[Ooooops]

We never know, perhaps that is part of the mystery of birth and every child and adult, given the right environment most can people can succeed.

Now we just have to solve the tiniest problem - find that right environment, because I, personally, don't know such Eden where "most people succeed"....  Do you?