Russia is at it again!

[BC]

In middle school, a little dork shot a spitwad at a kid who was a friend of the school's 200-pound bully.  The bully chased the dork down and beat the hell out of him breaking his nose and jaw. 

Bully claimed he was justified.  Was he?
 

Huge difference between a spitwad and between 1500 and 2000 lives reportedly lost at the hands of the Georgian army before the RU army invaded.  This is the crucial 'fact' that holds the RU story together.  Little more needs to be done than verify this.

[Ronnie]

Huge difference between a spitwad and between 1500 and 2000 lives reportedly lost at the hands of the Georgian army before the RU army invaded.  This is the crucial 'fact' that holds the RU story together.  Little more needs to be done than verify this.

Your answer was predictable.  You are ignoring the issue of proportionality...and for good reason 

[BC]

Your answer was predictable.  You are ignoring the issue of proportionality...and for good reason 

then please do provide the civilian body counts on both sides.

[steviej]

Why do we still have such a chronic knee-jerk of negativity in reaction to Russia from the West? I don't really understand this. To the foreign policy eye of Steviej, Russia is USA's natural ally. I want a strong Russia as a friend. Seriously, I think the problem in the long run is China. To go further out on a limb, I think it would be great to see the regions that are predominantly ethnic Russians re-absorbed into Russia, if that's what the people want. I would like Russia to be very strong, to be a close friend and ally of US, and to be a bulwark against China for further complcations there.

[Ronnie]

Why do we still have such a chronic knee-jerk of negativity in reaction to Russia from the West? I don't really understand this. To the foreign policy eye of Steviej, Russia is USA's natural ally. I want a strong Russia as a friend. Seriously, I think the problem in the long run is China. To go further out on a limb, I think it would be great to see the regions that are predominantly ethnic Russians re-absorbed into Russia, if that's what the people want. I would like Russia to be very strong, to be a close friend and ally of US, and to be a bulwark against China for further complcations there.

StevieJ.  I agree with you when you say Russia is USA's natural ally.  But there is one entity that stands between that condition and the status quo.  That entity is Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and his FSB cronies.  His paranoia, bluster and antipathy for the west has left Russia with few, if any, friends.  And those friends are not the most reputable in the world community. 

I can't blame Putin for being nostalgic for the good old days.  I'm a  nostalgic kind a guy too.  But Putin's nostalgia pines for the days when the USSR was considered a super-power.  When he and the KGB did not have competition from Oligarchs and gangsters.  When his crimes and those of his collegues could be covered up with the lift of an eyebrow.  When Pravda told the truth as the Kremlin defined it.

I can't figure out a way to go backwards in time to relive the Happy Days life.  Putin, on the other hand, has.  He has, since his first election, been rolling back the clock and put the Russian Federation in reverse gear, while the other former soviet republics (Belarus excluded) have moved forward and have gained ground despite Putin's desperate efforts to pull them back into his sphere of influence or control.

Without a free and independent press in Russia, the people of our natural ally will remain in darkness, closed off from the light of the world.  It grieves me greatly to see it happening before my eyes.  The people of Russia deserve so much more.  If only they could see.
 

[BC]

StevieJ.  I agree with you when you say Russia is USA's natural ally.  But there is one entity that stands between that condition and the status quo.  That entity is Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin and his FSB cronies.  His paranoia, bluster and antipathy for the west has left Russia with few, if any, friends.  And those friends are not the most reputable in the world community. 

I can't blame Putin for being nostalgic for the good old days.  I'm a  nostalgic kind a guy too.  But Putin's nostalgia pines for the days when the USSR was considered a super-power.  When he and the KGB did not have competition from Oligarchs and gangsters.  When his crimes and those of his collegues could be covered up with the lift of an eyebrow.  When Pravda told the truth as the Kremlin defined it.

I can't figure out a way to go backwards in time to relive the Happy Days life.  Putin, on the other hand, has.  He has, since his first election, been rolling back the clock and put the Russian Federation in reverse gear, while the other former soviet republics (Belarus excluded) have moved forward and have gained ground despite Putin's desperate efforts to pull them back into his sphere of influence or control.

Without a free and independent press in Russia, the people of our natural ally will remain in darkness, closed off from the light of the world.  It grieves me greatly to see it happening before my eyes.  The people of Russia deserve so much more.  If only they could see.
 

Time to get off the horse Ronnie,

One could say the same about China and their skirmishes. No threats thrown around there like with RU.  The veil of using democracy as justification under these pretexts is a cop out.

Interestingly enough, I watched an interview today with some expert on CNN, caught the tail end so didn't get the name.  He basically said that there wasn't a damn thing the US could do about it in the long run.  I tried to find the video report on the cnn site.. but guess what.. it ain't there and doubt if it will be run again.

[Misha]

Huge difference between a spitwad and between 1500 and 2000 lives reportedly lost at the hands of the Georgian army before the RU army invaded.  This is the crucial 'fact' that holds the RU story together.  Little more needs to be done than verify this.

Given that the Russian army was in Ossetia a day or so after the attack along with Russian journalists, where are the photos? Where are the corpses piled up? Where is the evidence? Two thousand is a lot of dead people. If Russia had the proof, they would have already aired it and shown it to the world. Maybe I missed it, so if someone can provide me any evidence of killings on such a large scale, I would like to see it.

[Ronnie]

Given that the Russian army was in Ossetia a day or so after the attack along with Russian journalists, where are the photos? Where are the corpses piled up? Where is the evidence? Two thousand is a lot of dead people. If Russia had the proof, they would have already aired it and shown it to the world. Maybe I missed it, so if someone can provide me any evidence of killings on such a large scale, I would like to see it.

It will be a long, long wait Misha. 

[ScottinCrimea]

The Russians are great at internal propaganda but still have a long way to go with regards to international PR.  Not saying it's good or bad, just saying.

[wxman]

wx,

Resources are available.. After all we are talking about the southern border of Russia.. LOL. In ALL the reports not a drop of rain.

Suprised.. yes that is the word.. The greatest intelligence gathering machine in the world simply cannot afford to be 'surprised'.. not after the last big surprise.

I just don't buy it, and that makes it reek even more.

Ummm, we are talking George Bush here. The recession took him by surprise. Any more questions?    I wish everyone would not get so upset about the US delivering supplies to Georgia. They made it to Atlanta just fine!

[possum]

The pro-Kremlin Putin-loving pseudo-patriotic journalists and bloggers here are beside themselves these days, spewing hatred for America in every outlet they can find while praising the Russian government for "kicking Georgia's ass" and "showing our enemies what's coming".. It's sickening, some of the stuff I'm reading right now..

[Ronnie]

Possum.  I'm with you.  It turns my stomach to read some of the childish comments eminating from ISP's in Russia.  But the more serious problems with Russia are not the young pridurak sitting at a terminal in the local Internet Klub.  Russia's problem stems from an entirely different Klub.  Russians will have to once again topple that Felix Dzerzhinsky statue if there is to be any hope for the motherland.

Here's an excellent assessment from the BBC. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7257310.stm

[possum]

Ronnie,

I disagree.. The pridurok at the Internet club, or more likely behind his outdated computer in Chukhran in Mukhosransk Region, IS what's wrong with this country because he believes that Putin and his former KGB colleagues are responsible for all the good things that have happened in the last few years, namely the economic growth and all that goes with it.. and as a consequence, he also believes everything the government says, particularly in regards to the things he's clueless about, like AmeriKa and the West..

[Shadow]

The Russian press is just reacting to all those who point the finger at Russia as the guilty one over this.

[kievstar]

 I am working out of Brussels but an American.  Brussels is an interesting city as it is French and Flemish(Dutch).  Russia and Georgia war is different based on which television channel you watch.  We get a lot of different news channels here in Brussels.  

CNN tends to over hype things.  Al jazeer makes it sound like it is Russia vs USA.  Dutch news makes it sound like Russia vs USA.  French news makes it sound like Russia is going to conquer Europe and that USA is the fault for this.  German channel just talks about bad economy in Europe and blames eastern Europe EU members for that and how housing prices in Europe is starting to fall and no coverage on war.  

My point is news can never be trusted.  Georgia and Russia got into a war.  Russia won round 1.  But this war is not over.  Just started.  USA now has troops in Georgia on the ground - saw it on French news yesterday.  Actual footage and they were headed towards Gori.  They were not dressed for aid.  They were dressed ready for action if needed.

Russia and Europe can talk tough on television.  Bush did good call by putting troops in Georgia.  Lets see how tough Russia is now.  Very tough to talk on television or papers.  Different when you look someone in the eye.  One thing bad for Russia is that air warfare is very expensive and they cannot compete with USA.  This is only reason Georgia lost - Russia was superior in the air.

Also, Nato and G8 is a joke.  Germany and France are so dependent on Russia for energy there really Russia's bi...tch.  Say what you want about Putin but he is smart and clever.  Russia really does not need the West anymore.  

Russia is not done and Sevastopol and maybe all of Crimea will be next.  But they can do this without war.  Most people there want to go back to Russia except the Tatars.

All this USA bashing is just ignorant people.  USA had nothing to do with this war starting.  This war was not about oil either.  This war was about Georgia and Russia.  Also, showed true color of yellow for Europe but they have no choice as Russia controls them.  

Regarding being worried of China.  To late.  USA and China trade so much with each other they can never go to war against one another.  USA should spend more time on other regions of the World and forget about Europe.  Europe population is getting old and decreasing.  Better to focus on the younger Asia and Americas.  Maybe get into Africa like China has been doing.  

[Shadow]

Kievstar, this is about Russia and Georgia, not about the USA.
It is not bashing the USA telling they are painting a distorted picture, and it would be better if the USA will not get involved in the fighting.
However if the USA wants to take on the task of keeping the peacein South Ossetia, it might be a good thing, providing they will call it straight.

[Misha]

This in today's Moscow Times:

War Casts Cloud Over Pipeline Route
14 August 2008
By Anatoly Medetsky / Staff Writer

Any plans to use Georgia as a bridge for more energy supplies to Europe are likely set to gather dust now that the tiny country's fierce armed conflict with Russia has exposed the insecurity of the route, analysts said.

Georgia has been a key conduit of oil and gas from Central Asia to the West that bypasses Russia, and Europe has been hoping to build another pipeline to bring more gas from the area.

That pipeline project, called Nabucco, has long been on the drawing board, but potential investors had trouble contracting enough gas for it from Azerbaijan or Turkmenistan.

Shipping the gas from Turkmenistan would require building a separate pipeline across the Caspian Sea bed, which has yet to be divided by the sea's five littoral states, Russia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Iran.

Now, Georgia's vulnerability may have dealt a lethal blow to Nabucco and plans for a trans-Caspian pipeline.

The Nabucco pipeline would have helped Europe free itself from complete dependence on GAZPROM. If the Nabucco pipeline is not built, GAZPROM control the flow of Central Asian natural gas, siphoning off a hefty profit in the process and pumping billions into the bank accounts of Russia's elite.

If the pipeline is not built, I would say that Russia achieved its true objective: destabilizing the region to control the flow of oil and gas from Central Asia and the Caspian Sea to the world markets.

[Diplomacy]

This in today's Moscow Times:

Now, Georgia's vulnerability may have dealt a lethal blow to Nabucco and plans for a trans-Caspian pipeline.[/b]

The Nabucco pipeline would have helped Europe free itself from complete dependence on GAZPROM. If the Nabucco pipeline is not built, GAZPROM control the flow of Central Asian natural gas, siphoning off a hefty profit in the process and pumping billions into the bank accounts of Russia's elite.

If the pipeline is not built, I would say that Russia achieved its true objective: destabilizing the region to control the flow of oil and gas from Central Asia and the Caspian Sea to the world markets.

Yes, cutting off supply line is a tactic for sure.  Another factor, that you have to use to keep the haze of war from slanting this also.  What a mess!

[Shadow]

Russia has no need to cut off a pipeline in Georgia. They can just cut it off in Türkmenistan or Azerbaidjan where they have the influence and contracts.

[Misha]

Russia has no need to cut off a pipeline in Georgia. They can just cut it off in Türkmenistan or Azerbaidjan where they have the influence and contracts.

These two countries were getting a bit "uppity" this last year. They were actually demanding from GAZPROM to be paid world prices for their gas (or something close to it). Russia had a good deal going: buy natural gas at much lower than world prices in Central Asia and then resell it to Europe at world prices making a huge profit. If Russia controls the export routes, it can dictate its terms of the contracts it signs (hence Russian "influence"). That is why it has been doing everything it can to undermine any alternative routes, including Nabucco. It wants to ensure that Europe is forced to buy natural gas from GAZPROM. I will commend Russia: it is doing a wonderful job to ensure that Europe will be dependent on Russian and Russian-controlled natural gas. Georgia IMHO is simply the continuation of a much larger game to control the European natural gas market. 

[Jack]

 

[Shadow]

Do not forget that Russia delivers the gas below European market price to many of the FSU republics. The price Ukraine pays is in Dollars, and will be closer to the market price any time they need remembering.

[diverboy70]

Georgia IMHO is simply the continuation of a much larger game to control the European natural gas market. 

Agreed!

I have just been following this thread sporadically lately. But I sure can understand some of the motives of Russias reactions in Georgia. Georgia joining NATO would NOT be in the interest of Russia or in the interest of world peace. Russia can say that they have real strategic interests in Georgia, no one can doubt that! For the US to say they have real strategic interests there or in Iraq or in Afganistan is just BS!

And honestly NATO has nothing to do in that area. They are throwing off the whole power balance by going in there! It is a game of balance of influence, and the US and NATO should stay the hxxx out of that region.

[Misha]

Do not forget that Russia delivers the gas below European market price to many of the FSU republics. The price Ukraine pays is in Dollars, and will be closer to the market price any time they need remembering.

True, and Russia had signed "contracts" with Ukraine. Ukraine learned a lesson as to the dangers of being dependent on Russia for natural gas. Does not seem like Europe paid heed. Russia's strategy is quite simple: sell natural gas to Europe at the maximum price ensuring that its clients are dependent on it for their supplies and buy natural gas farther down the supply chain at much lower prices by ensuring that its suppliers are dependent on it to get their natural gas to market. Simply put, Russia wants to create a monopoly whereby it profits to the maximum. At the end of the day, it is Europe that will pay the price.

[diverboy70]

The US through NATO is poking the bear with the stick and then get outraged when the bear gets angry!