Russia is at it again!

[Admin]

msmoby_ru and OlgaH:

There seems to be an increasingly tension-filled exchange between the two of you.

Can you both please roll it back and interact civilly? I realize the topic is one that is likely to evoke passionate arguments. All the more reason for you to work at being civil toward one another.

Suggest you take a peek at the Guidelines for Civil Discourse (found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7223.0), and try to follow them.

Thanks,

- Dan

[OlgaH]

msmoby_ru and OlgaH:

Suggest you take a peek at the Guidelines for Civil Discourse (found here -- http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7223.0), and try to follow them.

Thanks,

- Dan

Borrowed from MSN, these guidelines should be helpful as a reference source:

• Use civil and helpful, not hurtful language (such as name-calling)

- Dan

your statement is even more silly......

now you simply demonstrate your inability

Olga:

 WHY do you persist in making an "ass" of yourself

Over and above msmoby_ru has written about me

even though she has as good as called me ( and others) "stupid" for having differing views

 

Dan, please, you as Admin can confirm if I used or did not the word "stupid" for msmoby_ru and others, as msmoby_ru asserts

Thank you.

[Misha]

This aerial image of Kekhvi, an ethnic Georgian village approximately 9km north of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali
August 30 2008

Olga,

This is what Google has to say about their maps:

"How old is the satellite map data on Google Maps?

Google Maps uses the same satellite data as Google Earth. Google Earth acquires the best imagery available, most of which is approximately one to three years old.

We strive to update our data regularly. Unfortunately, we're not able to provide detailed information about when a specific area will be updated. Also, we don't offer high resolution data by order, as this information is added as it becomes available from our data providers."

Source: http://maps.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=22040&topic=10778.

In other words Olga, relying on Google maps to know what is happening in South Ossetia at the present, would be like reading a three year old newspaper to know what is happening in the world today.

[OlgaH]

Misha,

I use Google Earth Pro For professional and commercial uses. http://earth.google.com/enterprise/earth_pro.html

I think if the Google Earth Pro used too old data there would be too many  legal proceedings. In any case I will check again after some time.

[Misha]

Misha,

I use Google Earth Pro For professional and commercial uses. http://earth.google.com/enterprise/earth_pro.html

I think if the Google Earth Pro used too old data there would be too many  legal proceedings. In any case I will check again after some time.

Olga,

Google Earth Pro uses the same photos as regular Google Earth.

This is what they have to say: "Google Earth acquires the best imagery available, most of which is approximately one to three years old. The information in Google Earth is collected over time and is not 'real time' in nature. For example, it's not possible to see real time changes in images."

Source: http://earth.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=21414&topic=15103

[OlgaH]

Olga,

Google Earth Pro uses the same photos as regular Google Earth.

This is what they have to say: "Google Earth acquires the best imagery available, most of which is approximately one to three years old. The information in Google Earth is collected over time and is not 'real time' in nature. For example, it's not possible to see real time changes in images."

Source: http://earth.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=21414&topic=15103

I missed that part Thanks Misha. Guess I will need to check after "approximately one to three years"...

[Misha]

I missed that part Thanks Misha. Guess I will need to check after "approximately one to three years"...

No problem, but it does demonstrate that Mark's data is more reliable.

[OlgaH]

Unfortunately the looting has been existed at any wars, and I agree that the looters must be punished.

International humanitarian law applicable to the fighting between South Ossetian militias and Georgian forces prohibits attacks on civilian property, as well as looting or pillaging. Individuals, including commanders, participating in the deliberate or reckless destruction or looting of civilian property are responsible for war crimes. International humanitarian law also prohibits “acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population.” 
 
Russian Minister of Internal Affairs Rashid Nurgaliev said there would be “decisive and tough” measures taken against looters. 
 
“The Russian government should be held to this promise to punish looters but much more needs to be done to ensure that all sides protect civilians,” said Holly Cartner, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. 
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/georgi19607.htm

 

[Misha]

Unfortunately the looting has been existed at any wars, and I agree that the looters must be punished.
 

I agree. So what do you recommend Russia should do with its soldiers that are looting? Or its commanders that are clearly aiding and abetting their fellow citizens burning the homes of ethnic Georgians to ensure they don't return?

[OlgaH]

I agree. So what do you recommend Russia should do with its soldiers that are looting? Or its commanders that are clearly aiding and abetting their fellow citizens burning the homes of ethnic Georgians to ensure they don't return?

Same thing that must be done with Saakashvili who gave a command to kill South Ossetians.

[Misha]

Same thing that must be done with Saakashvili who gave a command to kill South Ossetians.

Okay, so you agree that Putin and Medvedev also must face justice?

[OlgaH]

Okay, so you agree that Putin and Medvedev also must face justice?

along with NATO and UN.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8199.msg149785;topicseen#msg149785

[msmoby_ru]

Over and above msmoby_ru has written about me
 

Dan, please, you as Admin can confirm if I used or did not the word "stupid" for msmoby_ru and others, as msmoby_ru asserts

Thank you.

Olga the question you should have asked Dan was " did msmoby_ru alter a post - inserting a link - after I had posted it?"  ...I have even suggested you ( and Robert ) notified Dan 4 times - as you kept making it an issue... this is actually when you accused me of "lying"...

If you choose to read my posts you'll find the answer to your question to Dan is in clear .. and the inference was you were "as good as calling us stupid" .. not just ME, ANY member - if we didn't agree with your PoV - we were accepting "Bush propaganda"

Like I said I can live with being called a liar - when it is clear the accuser doesn't want to back it up, and I apologise to Dan and other members for my part in this "red herring" to more serious matters.

Now, I note you wouldn't accept my telling you not to accept Google earth data - but you HAVE accepted someone else's .... perhaps you would like to comment on how "peace-keepers" have allowed this ethnic cleansing activity to continue.

It is clear to me that we need some unbiased peace-keepers in this region quickly - the trouble is WHO wants to send such troops when The Russian military are so clearly "turning a blind eye" to such events?

Lest I'm accused of too much bias - I learnt this morning that Ru sourced web sites are being banned from being accessed in Georgia - I think the people should be allowed to disseminate - not a govt. on their behalf ..


Let's get back to the debate, eh? I want to hear your comments on these photos - now that you can see that the UNHRW ones are the genuine ones...

[BC]

Now, I note you wouldn't accept my telling you not to accept Google earth data - but you HAVE accepted someone else's .... perhaps you would like to comment on how "peace-keepers" have allowed this ethnic cleansing activity to continue.

Considering a term like 'ethnic cleansing' is quite wide, might want to first come to grips first with a common definition to work with.  Lacking definition discussion is quite useless.

In war and disaster zones (remember Katrina?), looting and retribution will be taken by those feeling offended. Are there any wars where this did not happen?  I think controlling such would be quite impossible and doubt a government sponsored order was given to do so.. maybe it's even sometimes best to let folks rampage for a bit and burn off steam against objects instead of people.

It is clear to me that we need some unbiased peace-keepers in this region quickly - the trouble is WHO wants to send such troops when The Russian military are so clearly "turning a blind eye" to such events?

I fear it is a bit late.. as quickly as the west wanted RU out of these territories it would seem that the west should have had thousands of peacekeepers waiting at the border.  Not doing so gives the RU position that 'someone has to..' and if no takers are in sight take over that responsibility.

Lest I'm accused of too much bias - I learnt this morning that Ru sourced web sites are being banned from being accessed in Georgia - I think the people should be allowed to disseminate - not a govt. on their behalf ..

IIRC such was the case shortly before Georgia declared war, and during.  Democracy does not necessarily require guarantee of rights such as those in the US Constitution's First Amendment.  Reflect for a minute why they called them 'Amendments to the Constitution' instead of including such rights directly within the Constitution itself.

Let's get back to the debate, eh? I want to hear your comments on these photos - now that you can see that the UNHRW ones are the genuine ones...

Yes let us do get back to this interesting topic, but also keep eyes on the overall scope and not dwell too long on the first tree seen in the forest.  Quite distracting to see otherwise intelligent beings (and I refer to both sides) stoop low.

[msmoby_ru]

Considering a term like 'ethnic cleansing' is quite wide, might want to first come to grips first with a common definition to work with.  Lacking definition discussion is quite useless.

In war and disaster zones (remember Katrina?), looting and retribution will be taken by those feeling offended. Are there any wars where this did not happen?  I think controlling such would be quite impossible and doubt a government sponsored order was given to do so.. maybe it's even sometimes best to let folks rampage for a bit and burn off steam against objects instead of people.

I hardly think comparing a natural disaster and the looting of property by opportunists compares with the expulsion and complete destruction of communities to ensure they don't return.

I fear it is a bit late.. as quickly as the west wanted RU out of these territories it would seem that the west should have had thousands of peacekeepers waiting at the border.  Not doing so gives the RU position that 'someone has to..' and if no takers are in sight take over that responsibility.

of course it's too late for those killed or maimed or who lost property, but if we still have a situation where mob rule is condoned by the "victors" then those currently "policing" the area need to be replaced. It also casts doubt on any info they have been feeding us.

Right now it needs to be decided whether to recognise the breakaway republics - I think they should be recognised and so should Kosovo. Let's get unbiased troops in ASAP.

IIRC such was the case shortly before Georgia declared war, and during.  Democracy does not necessarily require guarantee of rights such as those in the US Constitution's First Amendment.  Reflect for a minute why they called them 'Amendments to the Constitution' instead of including such rights directly within the Constitution itself.

Not being American and not having a constitution to speak of I'm not up to speed on the US constitution;)...  But if you STILL think Georgia declared war - when there was a huge upswell in Russian backed interention - warning all but the "dimmest" observer that a "dam would break" - you clearly aren't up to speed on this regions tensions, yet...

Yes let us do get back to this interesting topic, but also keep eyes on the overall scope and not dwell too long on the first tree seen in the forest.  Quite distracting to see otherwise intelligent beings (and I refer to both sides) stoop low.

1/ If you are referring to the "forest" as territories Russia once controlled and is seeking to influence - with Georgia as the example, to others who might have ideas that don't suit - then YES - let's concentrate on the bigger picture

2/ I'm hoping intelligent beings can see the difference from posting unverifiable hearsay ( viz comments from Russian sources on reports from the OSCE that aren't published, yet)  using old sat imagery, used as countering UNHRW data - a source which had been used by them as "trustworthy " earlier on in the thread, and informing those with differing views that they are "apologists" for Bush....

3/ So I await that intelligent posters response to why even the French are "hopping mad" at Russian media telling it's audience that the French - Russian cease-fire plan is being "complied with" - when the truth is Russian troops were digging in ( example Poti - the port -) much more south than the southern most extremes of where Russian deems the southern most "border" of Abhkazia to end...

4/ I would like to know which other state has recognised the new "breakaway" states - particularly those present at the Shanghai convention?


That will do for now..

[Ronnie]

If some Russian Federation states tell Moscow, that the majority of people DON'T wish to remain part of the Federation ... will Russia be as quick to defend their rights?

We may soon find out.  My wife tells me Ingushetia, a muslim republic with a Kremlin-selected former KGB general as 'president' may be clamoring for independence soon after a critic was assassinated while in police custody.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7590719.stm

[Misha]

We may soon find out.  My wife tells me Ingushetia, a muslim republic with a Kremlin-selected former KGB general as 'president' may be clamoring for independence soon after a critic was assassinated while in police custody.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7590719.stm

Well, Tatarstan declared itself a sovereign state in 1991 and in 1992 the majority of the inhabitants of Tatarstan voted in favor of independence in a referendum held in this republic. Using the new Medvedev doctrine, they should be becoming a member of the United Nations any day now. It is a rich republic with plenty of oil and other resources.

[Shadow]

I am sure that the UN and the US will support the idea of new muslim states enforcing the sharia.

[msmoby_ru]

along with NATO and UN.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8199.msg149785;topicseen#msg149785

OK, Olga, your views on your adopted homeland and NATO are well-known - but please explain how you can include the UN ?

[BC]

Anyone heard of Transnistria?

Another autonomous state that has not been recognized by any other country.

Transnistria, also known as Trans-Dniester, Transdniestria, and Pridnestrovie (full name: Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic), is a breakaway republic[2][3] within the internationally recognised borders of Moldova, with the official status of an autonomous territory. It is de jure part of Moldova and it is de facto independent[4][5][6] and functions like a state.[7] It is organised as a presidential republic, with its own government, parliament, military, police, and postal system. Its authorities have adopted a constitution, flag, a national anthem, and a coat of arms.

Transnistria declared independence leading to the war with Moldova that started in March 1992 and was concluded by the ceasefire of July 1992. As part of that agreement, a three-party (Russia, Moldova, PMR) Joint Control Commission supervises the security arrangements in the demilitarized zone, comprising 20 localities on both sides of the river. Although the ceasefire has held, the territory's political status remains unresolved, and Transnistria has been de facto independent since that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

how about Nagorno-Karabakh Republic

The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (NKR)[1] (Armenian: Լեռնային Ղարաբաղ Հանրապետություն Lernayin Gharabaghi Hanrapetut’yun) or Artsakh Republic[1] is a de facto independent republic located in the Nagorno-Karabakh region of the South Caucasus, about 270 kilometers (170 miles) west of the Azerbaijani capital of Baku and very close to the border with Armenia.

On December 10, 1991, as the Soviet Union was collapsing, a referendum held in the NKAO and the neighboring Shahumian region resulted in a declaration of independence from Azerbaijan as the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. The country remains unrecognized by any international organization or country, including Armenia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh_Republic

[wxman]

This is how silly the Russian media is getting over Putin. Apparently a Siberian tiger charged the film crew, and fearless Putin shot it with a tranquilizer and saved the crew. What they don't seem to understand is that when you shoot an animal of that size with a tranquilizer that is charging and full of adrenaline, the effect takes about 5 minutes to bring the tiger down. So either the tiger was charging at a very very slow speed and would take 5 minutes to get to the crew, or the crew was very very far away. What the media will do to make Putin look like a god. 

http://news.aol.com/article/putin-saves-tv-crew-from-siberian-tiger/154687

[BC]

Other reports say the tiger got loose but no mention of a charge..  The poor beast was probably as confused as the TV crew and Putin shot the tiger.  Might have been quite scary being near a loose tiger, but I'm sure someone with a real gun was standing around if things got too out of hand.

Nothing like a good conspiracy..

[wxman]

I'm sure Russia will spin this one and blame the charging tiger on Georgia. Or perhaps he will claim the US armed that tiger. It was attacking Russians, and Putin has pledged to protect Russians wherever they may be. God bless the savior. 

[BC]

I'm sure Russia will spin this one and blame the charging tiger on Georgia. Or perhaps he will claim the US armed that tiger. It was attacking Russians, and Putin has pledged to protect Russians wherever they may be. God bless the savior. 

What's that newspaper that so many folks buy at the grocery stores in the US? - National Enquirer or some such..

The tiger was really a disguised UFO. - and guess what there are probably many that would believe exactly that.

[Ronnie]

With each such ludicrous report, more and more Russians will realize their minds are being played like a Stradivarius.