Does Russia Suffer from Culture Cringe?

[Ranetka]

Yes, considering how little is the chance that the military, so loyal to Putin, would want to stage a coup, or that any military junta replacing Putin would consider thorough democratic reforms.  I simply did not read the phrase "throw off the yoke" in the exact way that you did.  

On the other hand, my fantasy fails me when I try to imagine an alternative.  Perhaps autocracy can be supplanted by a democratic, reform-oriented government without any coups and ensuing anarchy.  I just fail to imagine such a thing happening in Russia.

I don't know really. Now I am probably going to be labelled again, but personally I do not think democracy is the only good form. Look at Saudi, for example. It is a good country to live in. Or Bachrein.

I only (personally) prefer Putin over Yeltsin. I am a simple mind, you see, I love food on my table and coat on my shoulders more then participating in election :-)

BTW, nobody elected Gordon Brown, and the UK is still a democracy??? Over a million went on demonstration against the war in Iraq in the UK and who cared?? What is the difference if you look beyond the facade? Why people are so attracted to how things are called...

[diverboy70]

Renatka,

Russia is not ready for a complete democracy now, sorry! But a lot of good things has happened in your country during the last decade. Then you can allways debate if a total democracy would have been even  better? I think not!

A lot of things has not happened yet. And a lot of wrong things have happened! You have still a long process to go through! But iI think you are on the right way! It is easy for us from the EU/ US to say you are doing everythig wrong, but I think it's more consructive to see what is going right! And thats a lot!   Sorry by going off topic here!

[kievstar]

One thing that hurt Russia was the arms race with the USA.  For numerous years Russia's money went towards the army.  Infrastructure of Russia has been neglected for 40 years.  To be a global super power you have to spend hundreds of billions of $'s on military each year plus take care of the countries needs.  Russia is in no shape to do this.  Oil was not why they lost in the 1980's.  Oil was a small reason.  If they invested money into there country, they could handle energy swings.

For example, in the USA people who have spending problems are suffering right now causing some problems but the country is moving along fine and its military is in good shape.  Strong countries have no issues with harder economic times as they invest in the entire country not just military.  But military is a good tool to enforce a countries needs.

Personally I like Russia and respect Putin.  But I think it is time USA tells Russia any soldiers in Georgia territory in two days is subject to whatever happens.  Maybe it would be good for Russia and USA to finally go at it directly.  

[diverboy70]

Kievstar!

You are just buing the propaganda! All Russia has to do is arming their subs with state of the arte "ammunition" and that is exactly what they are doing now. And just by doing that they are throwing off the power of balance, Why Kievstar do you think they are doing it right now?

[groovlstk]

Maybe it would be good for Russia and USA to finally go at it directly.  

Yeah, it would be a great way to start a nuclear war, now wouldn't that be fun?

[diverboy70]

Yeah, it would be a great way to start a nuclear war, now wouldn't that be fun?

Yes, and I guess you would like to push the trigger now? I'm guessing you,Ronnie,You are quite near to push it? I guess you live in Texas with your buddy Bush Maybe you can get on the same chopper with you party friends

I'm just sorry if you are that stupid!

[Ronnie]

Personally I like Russia and respect Putin.  But I think it is time USA tells Russia any soldiers in Georgia territory in two days is subject to whatever happens.  Maybe it would be good for Russia and USA to finally go at it directly. 

While I understand the sentiment and in the overall picture it would be beneficial for Russia to have it's military inferiority laid bare; I can't see it happening in the context presented.  In our beloved game of baseball a player gets three strikes before he is out.  This is only strike one.  Having said that, I will offer this:

The United States will not be alone in pushing the Russian troops back.  Right now the fight is between Russia and the other FSU/Warsaw pact nations.  Note that the presidents of Latvia, Lithuania, Estonis, Poland and Ukraine all flew to Tbilisi to stand in solidarity with Georgians.  Azerbaijanis' are taking up collections of money to help Georgians whose homes were burned and looted by Russian and Ossetian troops.

On the other hand, the US may, rightly, decide that the Russian propaganda machine will say that no matter who is doing the fighting, it is really the US behind it.  In the early days of the Ossetian conflict, RT had a report of a lady saying there were dead soldiers in the streets with US patches on their sleeves  and there were black soldiers (presumably American also).

If that is the case, that the USA will be considered the enemy in any conflict the Kremlin gets involved in, then it's possible the US may elect to just take care of the problem itself, though I hope that will not be the case.

Look, losing a son or brother or father or uncle in war is a family tragedy, especially when he was conscripted (and is only son as is often the case nowadays in Russian and elsewhere).  Russian mothers have suffered enough at the hands of their leaders. 

Many believe that Putin does not care about Georgia except to use it as a pawn in his chess game with Ukraine.  If he does anything similar in Ukraine, he will jump immediately from strike one to strike three and it will be over for him. 

My comments about a military coup represent the only peaceful way Russia can be saved.  I agree with Blues Fairy, it's a long shot and hard to imagine in Russia today.  But that's in the present environment.  When the west pulls out it's investment from Russia and the oligarchs cash in their chips and join the others in the west, Russia will be in shambles and anything is possible in a chaos. 

If that happens and Putin moves further down the road toward more wars, he will begin to lose his generals.  Nobody hates war more than soldiers and generals.  Remember, it was his military officers who tried to kill Hitler. 

[diverboy70]

Ronnie!

I guess you have no children! I have a boy that is 3 yearrs old. I also have a Russian girlfriends that wants to love this kid. So basicaly go to *snip* With your theories! They don't have anything to do with us or with our Russian girlfriends!

And anyway Ronnie with your US imperialistic attitude I guess you don't have a girlfriend with any connection with Russia? I don't think a russian girl would ever look at you if after she new your oppinion!

[diverboy70]

OK, sorry now I saw she was Ukrainan! So you are affraid Russia will go after Ukranie? Not so funny when the US is not the only military bully anymore LOL?!

[Misha]

Misha, We are not arguing the facts here! Im just saying that something is happening in the balance of power, and it may not be in the interest of those that got used to the US beeing the only superpower. I'm in no way saing that we are there yet, but I think thats were we are moving!

Well, let's argue with facts. The United States has the world's largest economy with a GNP that is valued at over 12 trillion dollars. Russia, even with its economic growth these last few years, has at best increased the size of its economy to 1 trillion dollars. This means that the United States' economy is twelve times larger and all things being equal can spend 12 times as much on its military. Russia, to come anywhere near close to the United States will have to grow its economy or spend a disproportionate amount of a smaller GNP to try and match the United States. The first will be hard to do if it only relies on oil and gas and does not reform its economy and the second will mean bankrupting its economy to have a strong military (i.e. the Soviet model). Nothing complicated here, simple economics.

[diverboy70]

Misha, we are not talking GNP now! I am trying, but just busting my head  talking of a change of power here. Is it so *snip*ing hard to understand for you Pro Americans to see that something is happening? Are you so stupid that you need another 5 years and then come crying that the Russians is the big bad bear again?

[Ronnie]

Earlier, BC belittled America for her lack of exports. 

When I pointed out to him the value of American exports comes to 1.5 trillion and Russia's entire GDP is only 1.3 trillion, he dropped the subject.

[Misha]

Misha, we are not talking GNP now! I am trying, but just busting my head  talking of a change of power here. Is it so *snip*ing hard to understand for you Pro Americans to see that something is happening? Are you so stupid that you need another 5 years and then come crying that the Russians is the big bad bear again?

Again, I am not "pro" American, but rather a realist. Somehow, it seems, that unless one does not sing the praises of Russia and refuses to say that the emperor is naked (i.e. refusing to think that the Russian army is as powerful as the Russian propaganda says it is), then one either hates Russia or is pro-American. I don't see a change in power. What Georgia lacked was the best American technology (stinger missiles and anti-tank missiles). Now, they are lobbying hard to get them: http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19247.

[Misha]

Are you so stupid that you need another 5 years and then come crying that the Russians is the big bad bear again?

By the way, it is a sign of a weak mind unable to argue constructively that you must call others stupid.

[diverboy70]

Why is it so hard to accept for you ( Ronnie & Misha) that Russia is trying to take a part as a supernation again (at any cost )How can you support the US and at the same time condemnd Russiia, I don't want to hear anything about democrasy, because that is the first BS the US will try to Use. Why did the US go in to Afghanistan just because of a taliban government without any support in the territorie? Yeah, the terorists that are so bad for us all?

[Ronnie]

Why is it so hard to accept for you ( Ronnie & Misha) that Russia is trying to take a part as a supernation again (at any cost )How can you support the US and at the same time condemnd Russiia, I don't want to hear anything about democrasy, because that is the first BS the US will try to Use. Why did the US go in to Afghanistan just because of a taliban government without any support in the territorie? Yeah, the terorists that are so bad for us all?

Diver Boy,
I don't know if this is really you or the evening's vodka speaking.  I hope (and assume) the latter. 

No man is exempt from saying silly things; the mischief is to say them deliberately.
  - Michel de Montaigne

[diverboy70]

Again, I am not "pro" American, but rather a realist. Somehow, it seems, that unless one does not sing the praises of Russia and refuses to say that the emperor is naked (i.e. refusing to think that the Russian army is as powerful as the Russian propaganda says it is), then one either hates Russia or is pro-American. I don't see a change in power. What Georgia lacked was the best American technology (stinger missiles and anti-tank missiles). Now, they are lobbying hard to get them: http://civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19247.

Ok, Misha, so Bucsh has a really nice dress?

Let me tell you that both Medvedev and Putin is at the dresser right now!

If you don't see the change in power you are just stupid or you don't want to see it. The time of US-supreme is going to it's ens- Ask any reputable expert in the area

[diverboy70]

Ronnie!

Don't guestion a MSc in political sciences about demoracy I know what I'm talking of (Whitout Vodka) By the way my second subject was intenational law!

So please some more sustantive argument

[Misha]

Ok, Misha, so Bucsh has a really nice dress?

Let me tell you that both Medvedev and Putin is at the dresser right now!

If you don't see the change in power you are just stupid or you don't want to see it. The time of US-supreme is going to it's ens- Ask any reputable expert in the area

I will give you the benefit of the doubt because English is not your first language. My reference to clothes comes from "The Emperor's New Clothes" (Keiserens nye Klæder) a fairy tale by Danish poet and author Hans Christian Andersen. Here is the Wikipedia reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes.

[Ronnie]

Diver Boy,

You're welcome to come to California on your next vacation and stay with me.  We can talk about American politics all you want.  This forum is about Russia and the FSU.

Congratulations on your degrees, BTW.  Sometimes I wish my son, who is your age, would have done as well as you, but he's chosen the music and he's very happy, and that's all a father can ask for.

[diverboy70]

just to take away the vodka reason. What was really the reaon of the US to go in to Afghanistan? Yes a  islamist movement there and just after 9/11. But really why? Yes the US was affraid as hell at the time, But did they kill or breed terorist at the time? And was Russia really protesting at the time, and why not? Balance of power?

[Ronnie]

Even the French are in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban.  Should they not be?

[diverboy70]

Ronnie!

We may be on different levels and disagree on a lot, but honestly I see that as an advantage   If you are sarcastic, I give you that

But honestly I think you are a good guy, you stay by your oppinions, even if I desagree with them some times!  

[diverboy70]

Even the French are in Afghanistan fighting the Taliban.  Should they not be?

No I have the basic idea that all nation should take care of there own nation in the fisrt place, and if not it should be a UN decree

[diverboy70]

Otherwise the big will allways eat the smaller! And this is (whithouts any emotion) what we are seeing in Georgie.