Russian marriage agency confusion

[Shadow]

But point taken- if you are thinking about hiring a PI then you definiately aren't ready to get hitched yet. This won't be an issue for me personally, so I wasn't commenting on the subject with any intent to actually hire a PI.

TOK read my post again. You might be able to find a licensed PI, and he may be straight. It would be a long shot to find one.
If you do, you will find that you will spend less money discovering a scam by yourself than the PI asks.
When you are such a hopeless case that you need to throw money around to see if a woman is sincere, you should understand that probably nothing will help you. 

[Caddydaddy]

Sorry, no offense meant to Mrs. Ash in her capacity as knowledgeable connoisseur of the RW dating scene!

Well, I just do not understand why a RW must give out her private phonenumber when she thinks it is not time yet and why this is a knockout criteria. Myself I do not give my private number as well as long as I do not want to in an early stage of communication.

Regards
CaddyDaddy

[BillR]

Sorry, no offense meant to Mrs. Ash in her capacity as knowledgeable connoisseur of the RW dating scene!

Well, I just do not understand why a RW must give out her private phonenumber when she thinks it is not time yet and why this is a knockout criteria. Myself I do not give my private number as well as long as I do not want to in an early stage of communication.

Regards
CaddyDaddy

I agree completely.  Personal information shouldn't be handed out to everyone who writes to a RW.  Furthermore, not all RW think alike.  I read Elena Petrova's ebook.  She said things about the number of roses you give a RW and the color, etc.   Turns out the RW I have been writing doesn't think that way at all.  She is from the Ukraine, so maybe that has something to do with it.

[groovlstk]

And so I concluded the only way for a long distance search is to have the service of a serious, trusty agency, no matter if this is for Russia or America. There are such agencies and if my future soulmate thinks same, so much the better 

just my 2 cents,
CaddyDaddy

CD, you do realize that by limiting yourself to agencies you are seeing only a tiny percentage of FSU women who might otherwise be interested in a relationship with you?

[Turboguy]

As far as compiling a list of PI's the guys here have used I have a feeling the number of guys who have done that are statically unmeasurable.    My thoughts are that if someone needed to hire a PI to check out any girl, especially one he had never met yet he should forget the whole thing, for that matter he should forget dating any women and spend the money on some serious counseling for trust issues.   The next step after would be keyloggers and hiring a PI to keep track of her after marriage.   

I agree with the others.  It is far better to invest the time getting to really know a woman and if you feel you can't trust her or she has a black past she is hiding from you move on.  There is a problem somewhere and it may not be on her end. 

Glad to hear that was a hypothetical question.

[BillR]

As far as compiling a list of PI's the guys here have used I have a feeling the number of guys who have done that are statically unmeasurable.    My thoughts are that if someone needed to hire a PI to check out any girl, especially one he had never met yet he should forget the whole thing, for that matter he should forget dating any women and spend the money on some serious counseling for trust issues.   The next step after would be keyloggers and hiring a PI to keep track of her after marriage.   

I agree with the others.  It is far better to invest the time getting to really know a woman and if you feel you can't trust her or she has a black past she is hiding from you move on.  There is a problem somewhere and it may not be on her end. 

Glad to hear that was a hypothetical question.

Why then do differerent sites offer background checks on RW?  How would anyone know whether or not a RW has a criminal record or not, or has a boyfriend or is married and is using the American to make money by being employed by an agency?   People can sometimes do a very good job acting like they are one thing, when they are completely different in reality.  There are American men who shouldn't be allowed to court a RW or UW because of their past. 

[KenC]

Why then do differerent sites offer background checks on RW?  How would anyone know whether or not a RW has a criminal record or not, or has a boyfriend or is married and is using the American to make money by being employed by an agency?   People can sometimes do a very good job acting like they are one thing, when they are completely different in reality.  There are American men who shouldn't be allowed to court a RW or UW because of their past. 

BillR,
If you look around here, most of the successful long term marriages began with solid relationships where the couples got to know each other very well.  Even the guy I labled as "One Week Wonder" made multiple trips to really get to know his wife before she came to the US.  He was a little premature in getting engaged IMO, but did his due diligence after the fact but before marriage.  There just is no substitute for knowing your future lifetime partner.  There is no one in this world I would trust (except myself) with such an important decision.

A couple of facts you need to know.  The woman must get a police report from her city to show that she is not a criminal as part of the K-1 process.  The IMBRA law covers the criminal background of the American men.

Turbo,
Morals do not only apply to sexual situations.  And if you look up the dictionary's definition of ethics and morals you will see that they are intertwined more than you obviously think.
KenC

[Turboguy]

If she has a criminal record she would be wasting her time because it will come out in the K-1 process and she likely would not get the visa.  I have never heard of a K-1 being denied because of a criminal background problem with one of the ladies.  I am sure it has happened but it would be a very tiny percentage.

I had not noticed the sites offering background checks but I don't hang out on the MOB sites these days.  I have heard of a few guys checking out that a women is real with flower/picture packages which I am sure all the gals know what that is for and I think it would be a bit of a turnoff.   I can't say I have ever heard of a guy hiring a PI to have a woman checked out before ever meeting.   Some of the agencies such as Elena's do verify a woman's status.  The internal passport in Russia displays marital status.  If a woman was married she could not hide it.   The percentage of women who are married and seeking a husband abroad is tiny.   I am sure some of the women have boyfriends but most likely not someone they want to marry.  I am sure others would go out on occasional dates.  I have a feeling some of the guys searching for a wife abroad date in America while they are looking.   I don't really see a difference.  If they don't have a commitment they are free to do what they want.  I dated some when I was trying to meet the right woman.  When I met my former fiancee and my current wife I would not have even considered dating someone here.  As far as I was concerned I was taken.  Hopefully they do the same but I am sure that depends on the moral fabric of the woman.  

Frankely, if I was a Russian woman and I found out a man I was seriously intersted in had hired a PI to check me out I think I would immediately loose all interest and run as fast as I could.  Trust is essential in a relationship.  

Ken, thanks.  I will check out the definition.  I drove back from Texas yesterday and logged over 1000 miles arriving at 3 am so my brain is fried today anyway, not that that makes it much worse than usual. 

[Shadow]

Why then do differerent sites offer background checks on RW? 

:usdeyes: :usdeyes: :usdeyes: :usdeyes: :usdeyes: :usdeyes:

[groovlstk]

Why then do differerent sites offer background checks on RW? 

Addendum to Shadow's concise and elegant post is the fact that much of the MOB industry - from agencies to scam lists to detective services to authors of shlocky "how-to" books - prey on men's dearest hopes as well as their greatest fears.

[topofthekey]

Hi, again,  Tok !

I didn't mean to seem abrupt.. sorry..  I think you hit the nail on the head... a guy who has very fixed holiday time is REALLY going to find this process hard.. it takes time.

its cool I was just thinking the same thing you just posted. Getting over there enough can be a challenge for some and of course the woman doesn't have forever and wants a relationship that is going somewhere. can be a lot of variables for a lot of guys.

[BillR]

If she has a criminal record she would be wasting her time because it will come out in the K-1 process and she likely would not get the visa.  I have never heard of a K-1 being denied because of a criminal background problem with one of the ladies.  I am sure it has happened but it would be a very tiny percentage.

...

 Frankely, if I was a Russian woman and I found out a man I was seriously intersted in had hired a PI to check me out I think I would immediately loose all interest and run as fast as I could.  Trust is essential in a relationship.  
 

Was that a typo?  Do you mean that women with a criminal background ARE denied a K-1?  For our Russian friends, I know you meant "lose all interest".  I don't think I would mind if a Russiain woman had me checked out.  I would want her to feel safe and secure with me.  "Trust" is something that can be given by someone naive, when it shouldn't be.  Trust is also something that comes about when you REALLY know someone.  How you get to know someone is the question.  There are really good actors out there.

[ConnerVT]

Was that a typo?  Do you mean that women with a criminal background ARE denied a K-1? 

A person wishing a visa to immigrate to the USA must be of "Good Moral Turpitude".

[groovlstk]

I would want her to feel safe and secure with me.  "Trust" is something that can be given by someone naive, when it shouldn't be.  Trust is also something that comes about when you REALLY know someone.  How you get to know someone is the question.  There are really good actors out there.

Good actresses aren't the problem - most guys who get jobbed by FSU women simply lack social skills, experience w/women, or backbone. They fall for beautiful women they'd never have a chance with at home and then spend their courting time justifying her red flags and bad behavior as "cultural differences" or hope that her attitude will change when she arrives. Both justifications are deadly.

[kievstar]

Ordering flowers through an agency does not mean she is communicating with you.  Some girls take photos with different number of flowers for agencies.  So when you send her 9, 11, or 15 roses the photo could be from a year ago. Makes agency profits even fatter.

If you send flowers, use a flower company and get the address of your lady and phone number.  Need to take agency out of picture. 

The easier thing to do is get off the keyboard and fly over.  If someone cannot afford to do that or does not have time they really should not pursue women far from them. 

[AnastassiaAsh]

Hi Anastassia,
Frankly, I don't understand it why a woman "must pass this test - and one should move on if not", when she works with an agency, especially in an early stage. I fully understand a serious, honest and in her search careful RW who wants this proceed. We are talking about long distance search and this is not same as local. I fully agree with you in a later stage, when it is clear there is a serious mutual interest.
CaddyDaddy

CD, you understand me only half way. Your relationship should be ONLY between you and a woman. Period. You should not wait till the time when she shows you she is serious and interested in you, because she must be serious from the beginning of the whole thing no matter who that guy will turn out to be, you or somebody else. it's ok to put a profile out on the agency website. But in my opinion that should be it. Just a means of showing yourself out to the world. I think in about 3-5 letters between you she should propose to correspond separately and talk separately from anybody. Agencies not only don't help but complicate and even in a malicious way make up things that people didn't even say to each other, change info on her profile without even her knowing, make you suffer and argue and ruin the relationship, only for the sake of holding you out for another potential relationship with another woman milking your money again and again... i was and am a witness to horrible things that are happening to couples. Believe me you do not want even some of it.

So, later stage, as you say it, should not be later, but the sooner the better. It is the test for everybody - the agency and the girl. Why would you want to find it out later? This is counter effective.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Caddy: A gentle chastening. I would be inclined to very much listen up to Mrs Ash. She might happen to know RW. She is one. Hence her clue about test passing. If she thinks it necessary (and I agree), isn't it logical that other decent RW might also think the same way? Mrs Ash and I have butted heads a few times over incidentals, but I have great respect for people of her class. They stand out from the crowd and most guys out skirt chasing would exceed their best expectations if the snagged one in her class.

I/O

Thank you I/O for these kind words.  More over i would say that one can find more classy women doing this on their own rather than through the agency, although there are exceptions of course. And it's not just because i happen to be a RW and others might think this way too. No, it's because the experience of hundreds of my clients tells me and others so. Everybody though has a right doing it their way and making a mistake or two, but some prefer to skip all that and succeed faster.

There will always be things that people disagree on, but there are clearly a set of 'smart norms' that should just be followed, unless somebody wants to part with his money intentionally and loose time. 

[AnastassiaAsh]

Sorry, no offense meant to Mrs. Ash in her capacity as knowledgeable connoisseur of the RW dating scene!

Well, I just do not understand why a RW must give out her private phonenumber when she thinks it is not time yet and why this is a knockout criteria. Myself I do not give my private number as well as long as I do not want to in an early stage of communication.

Regards
CaddyDaddy

Even if they say one should be careful with giving away personal info, still i think it's not that bad when it comes to it. First of all a man is in a different country, nobody will come and start sleeping or guarding her flat door. Second, if she is still afraid to do that, then it means that really many men are truly bothering her callling her ten times per day ruining her life - which means that she has been doing this for two years or more - something is very wrong there - red flag on her part again. Thirdly, the simple reason for being ready to give away your phone number is just the fact that she has absolutely nothing to hide. i felt the same way. i gave both my mail address and a phone number in my very first intro letter! Can you imagine that! do you think the hell broke loose? No, not at all, nothing, calm sea, not even close. And i hope you understand it's not because nobody liked me, just because so few replied back and even less decided to correspond and only 3-5 called within several months period. What is there to be scared of? Nothing.

It doesn't matter why she doesn't want to give her mail address and the phone, the fact itself matters and that's a red flag in my book no matter how you look at it.

[AnastassiaAsh]

Addendum to Shadow's concise and elegant post is the fact that much of the MOB industry - from agencies to scam lists to detective services to authors of shlocky "how-to" books - prey on men's dearest hopes as well as their greatest fears.

Bingo! i can sign under these words.  (1% belongs to exceptions.  )

[Misha]

It doesn't matter why she doesn't want to give her mail address and the phone, the fact itself matters and that's a red flag in my book no matter how you look at it.

I agree with Anastassia. Most women that I met never had any qualms about giving out their phone numbers. This is especially true with cell phones given that it is so easy to change numbers and service providers.

[Fogged]

There is one lady who from her first letter to me stated that she would prefer to talk on the phone than write endless letters. You can tell so much more about a person from their tone of voice and get a better understanding from one phone call than letters for months on end.

[Sculpto]

I have to agree about the phone number thing.  Having corresponded with ladies from agencies and from other indiependent sources I found it very odd that ladies who are not with agencies were very willing to give out their phone number and were not happy if I did not call immediately.  Contrasting that experience with ladies from, for example, the Orchid Agency in Odessa and Kherson, who absolutely refuse to give their numbers and are extremely committed to "helping" their agency I finally removed my profile from agency sites.  If she is showing some strange kind of loyalty to her agency I am quite sure it is because she is either part and parcel to the scam, or, even worse, she has been brainwashed by the agency managers to believe she will not be succesfull unless she does things the "agency way".

[Caddydaddy]

Hi all, especially Anastassia,

OK, got it  , I am always ready to learn and if I don't understand something I just ask dumb, sorry being so blunt.

I will have my very first call via the agency next Tuesday. Of course I asked if I can speak directly to her and not with an interpreter. I can.

I will ask her for her private email and phonenumber.

If I will not get it I will know, there is something to hide or they are playing agency games, so let her go.

Thanks for enlightening me.
Regards,
CaddyDaddy

[I/O]

She isn't keen to or is nervous about handing out her phone number? The list of expletives coming to mind is too extensive to write so I will settle for........"I feel this to be inaccurate thinking".

Various communications with several ladies over a long period of time always produced the same result for me, (I always had my address and phone number in the signature line of emails) that was, usually sooner rather than later, an sms which was clearly a try out to see if I would respond. I also received a number of unsolicited phone calls.

An anecdote: Mrs I/O sent me an sms (she saw my number on the bottom of my emails, bothered to sort out the country code and sent the sms) which arrived in the morning whilst I was at work. A couple of hours later, I responded. Seems she sent it then thought about it later, decided I would think her very bold and sent an email apologizing for being so forward. I found the email when I arrived home in the evening, by which time we had exchanged several sms's. To add fuel to it, I was to discover later, she had been laboriously translating each word in those sms's from an old phrase book her mother had used as a kid.

The point: Russian women are the original communicators...!!! They will find a way to talk (I think mine talks half the night even when I am sleeping) and they will not miss an opportunity. She is nervous about her phone number? Masculine Bovine Feces. 

I/O

[Faux Pas]

Even if they say one should be careful with giving away personal info, still i think it's not that bad when it comes to it. First of all a man is in a different country, nobody will come and start sleeping or guarding her flat door. Second, if she is still afraid to do that, then it means that really many men are truly bothering her callling her ten times per day ruining her life - which means that she has been doing this for two years or more - something is very wrong there - red flag on her part again. Thirdly, the simple reason for being ready to give away your phone number is just the fact that she has absolutely nothing to hide. i felt the same way. i gave both my mail address and a phone number in my very first intro letter! Can you imagine that! do you think the hell broke loose? No, not at all, nothing, calm sea, not even close. And i hope you understand it's not because nobody liked me, just because so few replied back and even less decided to correspond and only 3-5 called within several months period. What is there to be scared of? Nothing.

It doesn't matter why she doesn't want to give her mail address and the phone, the fact itself matters and that's a red flag in my book no matter how you look at it.

Ash,
You don't even amaze me anymore with your excellent advice and reason.  Nothing compares to common sense and experience of which you have plenty. I've come to expect nothing less from you and this post is proof.


Caddydaddy,
The bottom line is, as several eluded to earlier, communication. Initial communication through an agency is fine. If a woman is serious, she will get her number or email to you soon as humanly possibly. Some or most of the "shady" agencies will attempt or prolong that from happening as long as possible for their own reasons, usually involving profit. Some of the less serious ladies are also involved in that profit.

If she is giving reasons to not to speak on the phone or release her private information, that is a major red flag. Continuing to communicate with her through an agency is designed to separate you from your money.

The quicker you are with her one on one, only then can positive things really begin to develop. Early on when I started this search I was very surprised at the personal information I received after one email. Like you I was a bit on the paranoid side about private information to strangers. Those ladies knew long before I, that nothing really happens until you call. If one isn't willing to bite the bullet and share such information, they really have no business being on the date site or at the agency. IMO