The Future of FR-US Relations

[diverboy70]

However I think you are overreacting a bit, and I do think the situation for the press are getting better.

[Jack]

Ok, as I chuckle Diverboy, you can think I am over reacting but when the head of a government can silence his critic's by them somehow mysteriously falling from balconies, by being shot as they exit their elevator, shot as they get out of their car and holding bag's of grocery or poisoned in a foreign country, I don't think many people are going to be speaking out to much.

[diverboy70]

Honestly Jack! I don't know what yoy are gettin at here! More than that you maybe confirm that the US is not listening to anyone not singing their tune I did not dispute you at what you said, I maybe just don't see it in so black and white as you do! Just because I don't like the US foreign policy does not mean I think that Russia is doing the right thing either!

[Jack]

The fact is that Putin/medvedev has a solid support within the country

Diverboy, I am only responding to your quote above.


My post's to you in this thread have nothing to do with US foreign policy, how professional the CIA is or Guantanamo Bay.  I was, and am, simplying trying to point out to you just how much of the solid support you are claiming that Putin/Medvedev have is really solid when anyone who becomes vocal against Putin's actions seem to die.  In this case I would be a real solid supporter for Putin also.

[diverboy70]

Your line of thoughts lack logic, Jack! Not even Putin could go out and order a massmurder of opponents! If it was such a massive opinion against Putin, even he could not hide it!

[Jack]

again, you have me chuckling Diverboy.

[diverboy70]

Im happy to make your day a little brighter Jack! But if you have no other arguments...

I think this is one more of the "American ghosts". Yes Russia has a problem with the democracy issues and with how they handle the opposition. But then you automatically think that it's illigetimate rule in Russia?!!! Just as the Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

[Makkin]

  Jack is correct in what he says.


   Maybe the criticism of Russia hit's a nerve for some but surely it is more black and white as many have explained here. Because Diverboy wants to assume a position that both criticizes and praises Russia makes one wonder if he is truly critical in the first place.
   When a person attempts to be a politician on the boards it's clear for which party they stand for. In this case there is no election to feel the "vote" about Russia except if you focus on Western European opinion against hostile activities by Russia and Georgia but Icelandic countries have attempted to say little or they have decided to try very hard to walk the line and say what Putin will accept in all or most forums.

Makkin

[diverboy70]

Makkin, I'm sorry that you have read my posts so porly! I have not in one post praised Russia! I have said that I understand the reason for Russias action, and I have also been quite harsh with the US foreign policy. I have put the Russian actions against the US foreign policy. If you can't be objective about your own countrys actions, it's not my problem. Unfortunately you have mixed this up and not read my posts good enough!

[wxman]

I guess she is reffering to the fact that the US has it's own "civil war" against drugs, crimilality and illegeal immigrants. A big percentage of the population is living below the poverty line. But at the same time the US has the need to spend billions of dollars to go out to the world and show what a great country it is and that it is the only acceptable way to run any country! But this is just my thoughts. Maybe Olga has other thoughts?

About 12% of the population live below poverty in the US
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5j7nIuvwPoTTCKavkGk2OKKmUE-Fg

12% is too many, but does not equate to a "large percentage" A large percentage would be greater than 50%. According to Russia, their poverty rate is 15% http://seansrussiablog.org/2008/06/14/livin-on-the-russian-poverty-line/ And now Russia is spending billions to gain influence around the world. Yet, they have a bigger poverty problem than the US, and just as big a drug and alcohol problem as the US.  Of course Russia's definition of poverty is a lot different than the US. What we consider poverty in the US, would be a comfortable lifestyle in Russia.

[diverboy70]

Wxman,

You can't compare the US to Russia like that. Just 10 years ago Russia was basically a third world country! And the fact is still that the US is spending more that 1o times the money that Russia is spending on their military!

[wxman]

Wxman,

You can't compare the US to Russia like that. Just 10 years ago Russia was basically a third world country! And the fact is still that the US is spending more that 1o times the money that Russia is spending on their military!

I modified my post to get more current data. If you actually compare poverty in the US to Russia, I would easily say 70% of Russia lives in poverty. Russia's numbers are based on a very measly income. And Russia still is a 3rd world economy.

[wxman]

Wxman,

You can't compare the US to Russia like that. Just 10 years ago Russia was basically a third world country! And the fact is still that the US is spending more that 1o times the money that Russia is spending on their military!

Based on GDP that is false. US GDP is 2006 13.13 trillion, Russia 1.746 trillion 
Russia is spending the same percentage based on GDP that the US is.

US spending on military in 2008 623 billion   Russia 50 billion.  which equates to around 5% of GDP vs 3% of GDP

[diverboy70]

If we leave all feelings out of this for a while. The fact is that Russia is again attempting to be a superpower. That is what the conflict in Georgia is really about, and thats why Russia is not backing down! It is now up to the west to react to this situation in a proper manner. Do we want to go backto the "cold war" or can we find another sollution. Can we find a sollution that will not provoke "the bear" or do we want to fight the bear? The lapsus in time when the US could play as they liked is over, we are now going back to a bipolar world!

[diverboy70]

Wxman

I will not argue you about figures, you are probably right!

[diverboy70]

What I see as the bigest problem is that Putin and Medvedev today have all the power in the country, and they are again aspiring for world domination. This is a potential disaster, that the US and the west must realize and handle in a delicate manner!

[wxman]

If we leave all feelings out of this for a while. The fact is that Russia is again attempting to be a superpower. That is what the conflict in Georgia is really about, and thats why Russia is not backing down! It is now up to the west to react to this situation in a proper manner. Do we want to go backto the "cold war" or can we find another sollution. Can we find a sollution that will not provoke "the bear" or do we want to fight the bear? The lapsus in time when the US could play as they liked is over, we are now going back to a bipolar world!

I agree with you 100% here. We don't need to keep pushing each other in a corner. Eventually something really bad happens. Diplomacy means giving the other side a way to get out of a mess while still saving face.

[diverboy70]

wxman

I'm glad you finally are hearing me. Im not pro Russia in this, as many here thinks. My feeling is just that everyone have to cool down now! Its not just Russia vs Georgia anymore. That is also why I have told that I think NATO should back off for a while to let some independent organ get in and calm the feelings down and find a sollution.

[diverboy70]

Its a lose/lose situation if we get back to the cold war. Its a hard situation for the west to make a stand, that this is not acceptable but at the same time not make Russia loose it face.

[wxman]

wxman

I'm glad you finally are hearing me. Im not pro Russia in this, as many here thinks. My feeling is just that everyone have to cool down now! Its not just Russia vs Georgia anymore. That is also why I have told that I think NATO should back off for a while to let some independent organ get in and calm the feelings down and find a slollution.

As far as NATO goes, I personally don't care to see an expansion of NATO. I would actually like to see the US completely pull out of NATO.

[diverboy70]

As I see Nato, it has played out most of it's purpose. And as you Wxman, I think Nato should withdraw from Europe and maybe be replaced with an EU governed security force. Which I also think would be better accepted by Russia

[wxman]

The reason I think the US should leave NATO is that Europe is no longer of vital interest to the US. Our biggest trading partner is China and soon India will be number 2. If their are any alliances to be made, it should be with those 2 countries as economically we are becoming highly dependent on each other. Europe will soon no longer be that.  Let Europe deal with their issues on their timetable and Euro.

[diverboy70]

Wxman

I think there are different oppinions about that. I think both China and India would prefer unions with Europe, because the global opinion is that the US whas played out it's role as an Economic superpower. Even logistically, Europe would be the first choise for those countries

[wxman]

Wxman

I think there are different oppinions about that. I think both China and India would prefer unions with Europe, because the global opinion is that the US whas played out it's role as an Economic superpower. Even logistically, Europe would be the first choise for those countries

With the population of Europe becoming stagnant, and the US population expected to hit 400 million by 2039, along with growing Mexican population, and growing economies and population in South America, the western hemisphere will become the largest trading partners with China and India. I would not be surprised that within 50 years a true western hemisphere economic alliance will develop vastly surpassing Europe. More than 50% of the world's population will be split between China, India and the western Hemisphere. I place my bets on the far west being a bigger player than Europe will be.  Of course this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. 

[diverboy70]

Wxman,

We can speculate all we can, the future will tell

If you include Russia in the Europe sphere, you are throwing of the number a bit a guess