Was the Holodomor Genocide?

[Shadow]

This particular passage is far from giving an adequate estimate of Stalin's impact on Russia.  One may as well say; the figure of Fidel Castro is one of the most controversial in the history of Latin America; for some he is fearless revolutionary and visionary leader, whereas for others an oppressive tyrant and destroyer of people's freedom. 
Go figure. 

Actually this is not new; Russian historiographer Karamzin was writing his History of Russian State from the point of view of the monarchy.  Lots of "controversial figures" there too. 

For his impact on Russia and the FSU no one-paragraph description can be accurate. However what I see is not besides the truth.
BTW I can not download the text books.

[Shadow]

Shadow, it seems you are bucking for a job in the Kremlin.  Is that your goal?  You may be very good at repeating , Da, Da, Da.  But what will happen to you should you dare to ask, Pochemu? and Vladimir Vladimirovich hears you?

Ronnie I do not repeat anything. I like to form my opinion on facts, not parroting.

[ECOCKS]

This American Indian and slavery thing is pretty amusing, at least to me. I keep waiting for the apologies from the Romans/Italians for invading about 15-18 countries, the Chinese for the depredations of Genghis Khan, Scandinavian countries for the Viking raiders, the European slave traders, the African tribes who raided each other to sell for slaves to the traders and so on. Oh, by the way, don't England, Spain and France owe a few apologies to the North and South American natives for the first couple of hundred years of encroachment on North and South America? We didn't form a government until 1776, so who is sorry for the actions from 1492 until then? And then let's see, who else needs to receive and extend apologies? Oh, some of them owe both to each other and different people. Picts, Celts, Normans, Saxons, Gauls, Gaelic, Sumerians, Manchurians, Persians, Crusaders, Moors, Phoenicians.....

This PC BS is ridiculous. Let's just schedule a "Hey We're Sorry for Everything Our Ancestors Did to Everyone Else Day," celebrate it once and call it even.

[Blues Fairy]

For his impact on Russia and the FSU no one-paragraph description can be accurate. However what I see is not besides the truth.  BTW I can not download the text books.

Конечно, особый драматизм и напряженность советскому периоду сообщали особенности личности Сталина. <…> Однако влияние психологических особенностей личности Сталина на политико-экономическое развитие скорее было вторичным по сравнению с ролью объективных обстоятельств. Реализация ускоренной модернизации страны требовала соответствующей системы власти и формирования управленческого аппарата, способного реализовать этот курс. Во многом эти причины поясняют характер осуществленного Сталиным переворота, ставшего по масштабу "революцией сверху.
"Новейшая история России.1945 - 2006 гг.". Книга для учителя. А.В. Филиппов

Translation:
Of course a special drama and tension in the Soviet period was caused by the peculiar personality of Stalin.  However, the impact of his psychological character on the political and economic development was rather secondary compared to the role of objective circumstances.  The accelerated modernization of the country required a corresponding system of power and the formation of a ruling apparatus able to implement this course.  These reasons largely explain the nature of Stalin's overturn, which became in its scale "a revolution from above". 
Newest history of Russia 45-2006, by A.V. Filippov.

His passages on the latest politics are even more brilliant.

[Sculpto]

Sculpto answer these:
- Was the killing of Armenians by Turkey genocide ?
- Was the killing of the Inca by the Spanish genocide ?
- Was the killing of the Native Americans by the immigrants genocide ?
- Are the crimes against the Palestinians by Israel genocide ?
- Was the US war against the Phillipines genocide ?
- Is the treatment of the Kurdic people genocide ?

Armenians.. Genocide
Inca (and Aztec and Maya) .. genocide
native Americans .. genocide
Palestinians .. hard to say but certainly criminal in the most recent events
Phills.. don't know enough about it but would lean towards colonization and enslavement
Kurds.. the cumulative efforts of Turkey, Irak and Iran appear to be genocide.

[Sculpto]

Actually in the past few years school history textbooks were rewritten to whitewash Stalin's era and his person in line with Putin's ideology of "strengthening the power vertical" etc.  Present-day school kids who have not lived through the era of collapse of USSR and demotion of communist ideology have no immunity against this new (or not so new) brainwashing and will grow up believing Stalin was a great man.   

Thanks Blues.  Your post clearly illuminates the problem.  I think there is alegit comparison with the Japanese internment here in the USA.  That historical fact was not part of history taught in schools until relatively recently.  I didn't even know about it until I moved to San Francisco and I am something of a history hobbyist.  Its like if they ignore the facts it never happened. 

There is a great danger in this nationalistic mentality because it condems the current generation to repeat the mistakes.  When analyzed in that light and placed on the same table as Chechnya the results are clear.  So, who will be next?  It looks like Ingushetia.

It is interersting to google Vladikavkaz and review some of the political sites that come up.  Rather illuminating in fact.

[Sculpto]

Ronnie I do not repeat anything. I like to form my opinion on facts, not parroting.

Don't feed the TROLL Shadow. 

[Faux Pas]

This American Indian and slavery thing is pretty amusing, at least to me. I keep waiting for the apologies from the Romans/Italians for invading about 15-18 countries, the Chinese for the depredations of Genghis Khan, Scandinavian countries for the Viking raiders, the European slave traders, the African tribes who raided each other to sell for slaves to the traders and so on. Oh, by the way, don't England, Spain and France owe a few apologies to the North and South American natives for the first couple of hundred years of encroachment on North and South America? We didn't form a government until 1776, so who is sorry for the actions from 1492 until then? And then let's see, who else needs to receive and extend apologies? Oh, some of them owe both to each other and different people. Picts, Celts, Normans, Saxons, Gauls, Gaelic, Sumerians, Manchurians, Persians, Crusaders, Moors, Phoenicians.....

This PC BS is ridiculous. Let's just schedule a "Hey We're Sorry for Everything Our Ancestors Did to Everyone Else Day," celebrate it once and call it even.

HEAR HEAR! Well stated

[Sculpto]

a couple of you are not going to like the following comment, but, from what i am reading it is more than appropriate.

Your criticism of so called PC ideas is in fact a very clear and robust indication of your priveldge in this world as a white American/European male.  You demonstrate your arrogance and disregard for human rights and the right of self determination with your statements.  It is in fact the exact words you use that antagonize the people who have been the victims of colonialism, genocide and other forms of discrimination and repression.  Your words are the words of the oppresor.  You can not consider yourself to be enlightened, on the contrary you are a continuation of the crimes you mock.

I know you will not agree and will probably take offense, so be it.  But, it is exactly because of the kind of langauge that you are using that there exists demands for reperations.  You are deniers of history and are in complete denial of the benefit that you recieved as a result of past criminal acts.  Nothing I say, or anyone else says, is going to change your mind or views until you decide to go see for yourself. 

VIVA ZAPATA!

[Faux Pas]

a couple of you are not going to like the following comment, but, from what i am reading it is more than appropriate.

Hey it's a free country with guess what.....FREE SPEECH. Knock yourself out.

Your criticism of so called PC ideas is in fact a very clear and robust indication of your priveldge in this world as a white American/European male.  You demonstrate your arrogance and disregard for human rights and the right of self determination with your statements.  It is in fact the exact words you use that antagonize the people who have been the victims of colonialism, genocide and other forms of discrimination and repression.  Your words are the words of the oppresor.  You can not consider yourself to be enlightened, on the contrary you are a continuation of the crimes you mock.

Blow your enlightenment out of your azz. News flash Sculpt, you are enlightened, just like EVERYBODY else. All races and countries have been colonized, enslaved and discriminated in one form or another. Get the fluck over it and quit with the hatred of the white American/European male. Why is it antagonistic when someone doesn't agree with you or your warped views on life?

I know you will not agree and will probably take offense, so be it.  But, it is exactly because of the kind of langauge that you are using that there exists demands for reperations.  You are deniers of history and are in complete denial of the benefit that you recieved as a result of past criminal acts.  Nothing I say, or anyone else says, is going to change your mind or views until you decide to go see for yourself. 

VIVA ZAPATA!

I don't take offense but rarely do I ever agree with you on anything, yet I don't resort to calling you names and blame you for all the oppression that has existed for the last 5000 years all over the world. Deniers of history?   

What pray tell Sculpt has been "MY" benefit that I have received from past criminal acts?
 

[ECOCKS]

Past criminal acts?   :whirling:

How funny!  

You give fruit to so many questions with your comments about "white American/European privilege".

As I said, and as you so conveniently ignored, what about all the enslaved captives of the Roman Empire? Where is their apology (and reparations)? I wasn't aware of the Roman Apologist Movement's activities in this regard. Is Italy preparing to vote each long-lost ancestor a one-time reparation to make up for their heinous acts? Will they give all Christians a sum for putting Christ on the cross?

Does Israel have to apologize and pay both individual fees and a lump sum to the Palestinians for losing their homeland even though the arrogant Roman descendants apparently aren't paying for conquering the Jews? Will they then need to pass it on to the Palestinians? What about those tribes the Aztecs conquered? Does the Mexican government have to distribute a portion of Spain's payments to those who can prove they were displaced by the Sun Gods? Where is the "apology" due to Ukraine for the burning of the Orthodox church at the Lavra and subsequent deaths of the 1200-odd who took refuge within during the sack of the city by the Horde (you know, those little yellow people over to the East)? BTW, why isn't Yushenko pushing for THAT apology?

Maybe the blacksmiths are owed an apology and reparation for being pushed out of business by the auto industry now that the auto industry established how unfair it is that no one will buy their cars and will receive the bailouts?

When the Sioux receive their monies, will the Navajo remind them of some long-ago lost battle over some hunting ground which they should apologize for and pay them a fair price? Since they are not white American/Europeans they should presumably be neither arrogant nor disregarding each others human rights yet I haven't heard of the Native Americans organizing themselves to apologize and pay each other for their past actions.

None of you ever have an answer for how far back you will go, the push comes only when it serves the political agenda of some self-serving group which is downtrodden or seeking to justify some action.  Hence the term Politically Correct.

[Sculpto]

Blow your enlightenment out of your azz. News flash Sculpt, you are enlightened, just like EVERYBODY else. All races and countries have been colonized, enslaved and discriminated in one form or another. Get the fluck over it and quit with the hatred of the white American/European male. Why is it antagonistic when someone doesn't agree with you or your warped views on life?

Faux, I am just explaining a perspective that i am sure you are not aware of.  Years ago it was explained to me by someone I had a great deal of respect for.  This man was a Spaniard with an aristocratic title.  His family had been living in Mexico for a couple hundred years and he worked in one of the indigenous communities helping with economic development projects.  We had gotten into a debate about the similarities and differences between the problems in the African American community and the Indigenous communities in Mexico.  Both communites share some similiar historical traits and similiar difficulties in developing in positive ways.  I made a comment regarding laziness and lack of initiative and "I could do X to create Y" to which he responded with the exact same phrasology I used in my post.  It made me think for a long long time and I eventually realized he was correct.  We do have priviledges that we take for granted.

What pray tell Sculpt has been "MY" benefit that I have received from past criminal acts?
 

You live in the USA right?  Native American genocide and how much of the wealth of this country was first established as the result of the use of slave labor?  We all benefit from it, including the decendents of those who were killed or enslaved.  

[Sculpto]

As I said, and as you so conveniently ignored, what about all the enslaved captives of the Roman Empire? Where is their apology (and reparations)? I wasn't aware of the Roman Apologist Movement's activities in this regard. Is Italy preparing to vote each long-lost ancestor a one-time reparation to make up for their heinous acts? Will they give all Christians a sum for putting Christ on the cross?

Last time I checked the Roman empire no longer exists.  Its cities lay in ruins. 

Does Israel have to apologize and pay both individual fees and a lump sum to the Palestinians for losing their homeland even though the arrogant Roman descendants apparently aren't paying for conquering the Jews? Will they then need to pass it on to the Palestinians? What about those tribes the Aztecs conquered? Does the Mexican government have to distribute a portion of Spain's payments to those who can prove they were displaced by the Sun Gods? Where is the "apology" due to Ukraine for the burning of the Orthodox church at the Lavra and subsequent deaths of the 1200-odd who took refuge within during the sack of the city by the Horde (you know, those little yellow people over to the East)? BTW, why isn't Yushenko pushing for THAT apology?

Ultimately the Israelis will end up paying one way or another for their excesses with the Palestinians.  The Aztecs paid for their excesses when the so many conquered tribes joined the Spanish "army" in the conquest of Tenochtitlan.  The Mexicans had a revolution that in a large but not complete part addressed the excesses of Spanish colonialization.  They call it the Ejido system and to this day it remains intact.  The Indigenous in Mexico while impoverished like the natives in the USA also enjoy a level of autonomy politically as well as specific land rights in perpetuity.  That said there still exists rampant discrimination in some parts of Mexican society against the little brown people.  I dont know enough about the Ukraine example to comment.

However, in regards to the Holomodor it is recent history and is being used by both sides for political reasons.  That alone is enough to indicate some sort of redress is needed.  If the issue had been resoloved appropriately there would be no case for the ongoing political usage of the events of Stalin's reign.

Maybe the blacksmiths are owed an apology and reparation for being pushed out of business by the auto industry now that the auto industry established how unfair it is that no one will buy their cars and will receive the bailouts?

Now you are just being silly.

When the Sioux receive their monies, will the Navajo remind them of some long-ago lost battle over some hunting ground which they should apologize for and pay them a fair price? Since they are not white American/Europeans they should presumably be neither arrogant nor disregarding each others human rights yet I haven't heard of the Native Americans organizing themselves to apologize and pay each other for their past actions.

This comment is just fallacious and you know it.  Not even worthy of response.

None of you ever have an answer for how far back you will go, the push comes only when it serves the political agenda of some self-serving group which is downtrodden or seeking to justify some action.  Hence the term Politically Correct.

Actually your comment above clearly distinguishes exactly why reconciliation is needed.  Its ok when the dominant race or class has an agenda that serves its own political/social/economic aspirations but as soon as one of the victims of the excess speaks up loudly they are somehow vilified for demanding redress.  So, you just perpetuate the repression and continue the crime.  how very evolved of you. 

That is not political correctness.. in fact, what you mistakenly call political correctness is in this case justice and because it indicts the culture that you are part of you don't want any part of it or even recognize the legitimacy of the claims against you because it would mean that you have to sacrifice something you enjoy but didn't earn.   

[SANDRO43]

As I said, and as you so conveniently ignored, what about all the enslaved captives of the Roman Empire? Where is their apology (and reparations)? I wasn't aware of the Roman Apologist Movement's activities in this regard. Is Italy preparing to vote each long-lost ancestor a one-time reparation to make up for their heinous acts?

ECOCKS, you keep mixing up two entirely different state entities: some 1,500 years passed from the fall of the Roman Empire to the establishment of the Kingdom of Italy in 1861 - and in the meantime we were a tourist attraction for any army roaming Europe from as far as Mongolia .

Anyway, Berlusconi has recently apologised to Muhammar Qaddafi for the rather harsh treatment of the Senussi rebels in Lybia from 1922 onwards during Fascism - but I wonder if he'd done that, had Lybia had no oil/gas .

[ECOCKS]

ECOCKS, you keep mixing up two entirely different state entities: some 1,500 years passed from the fall of the Roman Empire to the establishment of the Kingdom of Italy in 1861 - and in the meantime we were a tourist attraction for any army roaming Europe from as far as Mongolia .

Anyway, Berlusconi has recently apologised to Muhammar Qaddafi for the rather harsh treatment of the Senussi rebels in Lybia from 1922 onwards during Fascism - but I wonder if he'd done that, had Lybia had no oil/gas .

I know Sandro, just making the point of successors and heirs and how far back we are going to go with this stupidity. It is all so ridiculous as to looking backwards and assigning blame for natural courses of events which have occurred consistently throughout history. Societies establish themselves and either grow or die. When they grow it is almost inevitable that the neighboring civilizations will suffer. When they die it is usually due to less efficiency in their organization or inability to sustain growth.

Now of course, it is so socially liberating to assign blame and extract a pound of flesh from the survivors.  Especially when the inefficient are somewhat intact and are seeking political tokens or some other resource allocation. 

[Mir]

the Chinese for the depredations of Genghis Khan

And what the h**l do the Chinese have to do with Genghis Khan?
This reminds me of a joke. A Chinese man is drinking in a bar. Suddenly Steven Spielberg (who has been drinking there as well) appears in front of him and punches him. While he is getting up he asks:'Why did you hit me?' and Spielberg says:'This was for Pearl Harbour, my grandfather died there' The man says:'But I am Chinese' and Spielberg say:Ahh Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese you are all the same' goes back to his table and starts drinking. A few minutes later the Chinese man goes there and punches Spielberg to the ground and says:'This was for the Titanic, my grandfather was on it' Spielberg says:"You idiot, Titanic was sunk by an iceburg' And the Chinese says; Aahh Iceburg, Spielberg you are all the same'.

And while we are discusing apologies don't forget these words:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Yes from American declaration of independence 1776. What hypocrisy that for the next 75 years or so slavery was part and parcel of the US state. Were the blacks considered not men (human) do decide that they were not equal and did not have the same unalienable rights as others? Or was it that this declaration was just a product of spin?
Either way there is need for an apology.

[ECOCKS]

Last time I checked the Roman empire no longer exists.  Its cities lay in ruins. 

yada, yada, yada......

That is not political correctness.. in fact, what you mistakenly call political correctness is in this case justice and because it indicts the culture that you are part of you don't want any part of it or even recognize the legitimacy of the claims against you because it would mean that you have to sacrifice something you enjoy but didn't earn.   

Last time I checked I have nothing to lose as to whether the Holodomor is deemed genocide or not. Most Ukrainians I have met (hundreds) find it to be a minor issue unworthy of attention in the face of their country's multitude of on-going problems. Odd they can build some memorials but can't figure out how to get the country ready for Euro 2012.

If you think the blacksmith/auto industry scenario was silly, just watch the US/foreign auto industry in progress and the oil/renewable energy debacle coming down the pike.  

As for the Indians and the slavery issues, those Blacks and Native Americans I have worked with were all pretty focused on doing their jobs and building their lives rather than obtaining an apology. Many seem embarrassed at the favoritism they received under EEOC programs and court orders. The people pushing those actions more often seem to be those apologist elitist members of the "winning" group who somehow feel a need to wash their hands with a symbolic action which does nothing towards alleviating the challenges and conditions those groups have lived through in order to survive in the new world they find themselves living in.

[Sculpto]

I may be wrong about this.. but haven't most European colonial powers established some sort of commonwealth arrangement with their former colonies as a part of their "reperations"?

For ex. when I was in Portugal there were lots of people from Angola and Mozambique..

Lots of people from all over in Britain...

Lots of different Africans in France...

And Sandro.. a question for you.. what is Italy's modern relationship with Ethiopia?

[Sculpto]

As for the Indians and the slavery issues, those Blacks and Native Americans I have worked with were all pretty focused on doing their jobs and building their lives rather than obtaining an apology.

yeah I am sure they told you the truth about how they feel. 

Remember yesterday when we were all talking about how FSUWs will tell WM exactly what the men want to hear?

[OlgaH]

The bolded word is at the core of progressive politics.  We in America are just now beginning to learn what the word really means.

Dude, the last 21 years have been anything but conservative politics.

Your phrase "We in America" means including you.

So it was just a conservative politics of US when US financed  Pinochet, when US  financed Hussein and only after the time when Hussein  invaded Kuwait US started to scream bloody murder.

My Lai: Legacy of a massacre
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7298533.stm

NATO was accused of human rights violations in Kosovo War, NATO's bombing caused ecological catastrophe in the region. Who from NATO was answerable for it?  

  

[ECOCKS]

And what the h**l do the Chinese have to do with Genghis Khan?
This reminds me of a joke. A Chinese man is drinking in a bar. Suddenly Steven Spielberg (who has been drinking there as well) appears in front of him and punches him. While he is getting up he asks:'Why did you hit me?' and Spielberg says:'This was for Pearl Harbour, my grandfather died there' The man says:'But I am Chinese' and Spielberg say:Ahh Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese you are all the same' goes back to his table and starts drinking. A few minutes later the Chinese man goes there and punches Spielberg to the ground and says:'This was for the Titanic, my grandfather was on it' Spielberg says:"You idiot, Titanic was sunk by an iceburg' And the Chinese says; Aahh Iceburg, Spielberg you are all the same'.

And while we are discusing apologies don't forget these words:
Yes from American declaration of independence 1776. What hypocrisy that for the next 75 years or so slavery was part and parcel of the US state. Were the blacks considered not men (human) do decide that they were not equal and did not have the same unalienable rights as others? Or was it that this declaration was just a product of spin?
Either way there is need for an apology.

Hmmm, okay you prefer we assign the apology to Mongolia?

As in the current events, go for the deepest pockets, but if you prefer Mongolia fine. I think he was ruling a lot of territory and China fits better. Besides, Mongolia will be broke if they have to take the blame.

So, you are sort of trying to say we should only assign blame when the actual government is still standing on the same, exact ground? Even if the leaders/politicians who determined the policies and actions are long dead? If they can be dead and we can make the heirs apologize, why can't we just assign blame to those successor governments as well?

Interesting too that we just sort of keep skipping over England, France and Spain continually. Hey what about those Dutch who moved in and squatted on Manhattan?

As for Sioux versus Navajo, what's your beef? They're both easily identifiable since their tribal governments are still active and locatable. That should give you an indication of how the Indians themselves really view the remorseless turn of the historical wheel.

Germany and France's actions in the Congo should be looked at closely too shouldn't they?

I think the UN needs to look deeply into this and setup a Commission to explore these horrible events, apportion blame and then collect the apology and blame from the culprits who benefited or their children or their children's children or their children's children's chil...

Pirates? Starvation? Warlords? Pandemic diseases? Economic crisis? Put those things on the back burner, we have a cause worth rallying to now!

Oh yeah, the Constitution? Check subsequent amendments and governmental acts which substantively addressed the issues those injustices created for those citizens affected. What should we do about those countries who were flagging those ships and bringing the slaves? Also, no one wants to consider those other black tribes which were selling to the slavers. Still going for the obvious target though aren't you?

Looking down I see that Sculpto says Commonwealth is/was the payback system to redress past wrongs. Odd I thought it was how Britain sought to sustain their economic and political positions by establishing a different relationship with some of their colonies when it became clear the colonies wanted independence and Britain couldn't afford to keep them. Egypt, Burma, Somalia, and several others didn't participate while Ireland didn't seem to care for it much either and how EXACTLY did that help any American Indians or blacks sold to American plantation owners by European slavers? The French Congo didn't seem real happy when they rebelled and the Algerians were a bit awkward in their disengagement as well. The Dutch Commonwealth was sort of nipped in the bud by the Japanese at the beginning of WW2 so we aren't too sure how that would have played out I guess.

This isn't even remotely an exhaustive list of colonial powers and their subjugated colonies which pushed out indigenous peoples to make way for exploitation by home country companies and entrepreneurs. However, if the majority of the world feels we need to spin time researching these atrocities, assigning blame and apportioning damages, then lets cut the pie a little slimmer on global warming, human rights commissions, the IMF, WHO and so on while we form an international organization to get to the bottom of this outrage!

[OlgaH]

Actually in the past few years school history textbooks were rewritten to whitewash Stalin's era and his person in line with Putin's ideology of "strengthening the power vertical" etc.  Present-day school kids who have not lived through the era of collapse of USSR and demotion of communist ideology have no immunity against this new (or not so new) brainwashing and will grow up believing Stalin was a great man.   

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2163481.ece

Download textbooks here: http://www.alleng.ru/edu/hist4.htm

Blues Fairy, I  have downloaded four history books from the link that you gave. Honestly,  reading about the Stalin's time I did not see any words of glorifying and justifying Stalin and his politics. 

[JR]

Hmmm, all this talk about who owes what. I seem to recall America purchasing a chunk of land in Africa called Liberia and offering anyone who wanted a ride back to the motherland, a cow, some dirt and a "We're sorry." This was not the only place it happened, either:
[edit] Cape Measured
In this same period, on the initiative of the Virginian politician Charles F. Mercer and the Presbyterian minister Robert Finley from New Jersey, in 1816 the American Colonization Society (ACS) was established in Washington D.C. by American politicians, senators and religious leaders from a variety of orientations, who, with sometimes divergent reasonings, united themselves on the project of colonizing free blacks out of the U.S., to Africa. From January, 1820, the ACS sent ships from New York to West Africa, the first one with 88 free black emigrants and three white ACS agents on board, intending to seek an appropriate spot of land to ground a settlement. After several attempts and hardships, ACS representatives in December 1821 succeeded, perhaps with some threat of force (see American Colonization Society), to buy Cape Mesurado, a 36-mile long strip of land near nowadays Monrovia, from indigenous ruler King Peter. From the beginning, the colonists were attacked by indigenous peoples like the Malinké tribes, and suffered from diseases, the harsh climate, lack of food and medicine, and poor housing conditions.[2]

England also did someting similar. So did a couple other contries. I wonder why so many chose to stay....
Perhaps it was because in the end they knew that both they and their children would be better off here. And I think that is a demonstrateable fact.

I also wonder why no one is demanding the Aztecs apologize, and pay reparations: "As bad as all this sounds the Maya were amateurs when it came to human sacrifice on a massive scale. The Aztecs of Central. Mexico, many years later, once sacrificed twenty thousand people in a single ceremony to commemorate the dedication of a new temple. Then they ate them."

I would like for someone to show me the nation, city state, indigenous peoples, tribe, what have you that has not suffered slavery, murder, torture, extermination, exploitation, etc. by another somewhere in it's history.

I propose we do this: I draw a line on the ground. If you were born of Cain, get on one side. If you were born of Able get on the other. Then lets figure out year by year who done who wrong until we get to today. By then we will all have apologized to everyone else and all the money in the world will have been handed around like mashed potatoes at dinner.

In the end this is the way it is, even today: "The strong did what they could and the weak suffered what they must." But when you lose, it is rarely pretty.

Who is going to apologize to the three dead pirates who were only trying to make a living? Didn't we poison their fishing grounds and give their warlords the implements to wage war and make it a living hell for them? I'm sure we are somehow to blame, we just have to figure it out.

[ECOCKS]

As FP says, Hear Hear!

[Shadow]

a couple of you are not going to like the following comment, but, from what i am reading it is more than appropriate.

Your criticism of so called PC ideas is in fact a very clear and robust indication of your priveldge in this world as a white American/European male.  You demonstrate your arrogance and disregard for human rights and the right of self determination with your statements.  It is in fact the exact words you use that antagonize the people who have been the victims of colonialism, genocide and other forms of discrimination and repression.  Your words are the words of the oppresor.  You can not consider yourself to be enlightened, on the contrary you are a continuation of the crimes you mock.

I know you will not agree and will probably take offense, so be it.  But, it is exactly because of the kind of langauge that you are using that there exists demands for reperations.  You are deniers of history and are in complete denial of the benefit that you recieved as a result of past criminal acts.  Nothing I say, or anyone else says, is going to change your mind or views until you decide to go see for yourself. 

VIVA ZAPATA!

My response:
I do not need any PC, because I hold all people equal. If people from any nation or heritage wish, they can accomplish astonishing facts. However if they need to thrive on guilt they bestow upon others, and hold a sense of entitlement, that shows nothing else than their on inability to make progress. One of the worst character traits is jealousy, and anyone who believes that people of other heritage owe them are basicly jealous of their accomplishments.