Humans as a commodity

[SANDRO43]

There also appers be a fairly large market in African women who are brought in also under false pretenses, often by relatives.

IIRC, there was a rather large population of students from simpathising African countries who attended Russian universities (Lumumba ?) during Soviet times, some of these girls may be their daughters born locally, and not necessarily 'imported' .

[Sculpto]

Sandro there are a number of stories that are current about women from Africa being brought to Moscow by relatives who were already there and then being turned out on the streets to work as prostitutes instead of the jobs they were promised.  Certainly some of them may also be former students as well.

[BC]

Sandro there are a number of stories that are current about women from Africa being brought to Moscow by relatives who were already there and then being turned out on the streets to work as prostitutes instead of the jobs they were promised.  Certainly some of them may also be former students as well.

Quite a few also made it to Italy so it seems...

In any case, where is this thread headed now? 

Sandro, I am familiar with 'Cogito, ergo sum'.. what would be the translation in Latin for 'I cook, therefore I am not' (a prostitute)?

[Sculpto]

Well, the topic is humans as a commodity so any discussion of the commodification of humans is relevent.  We could just as easily discuss the different aspects of illegal labor in Russia or Ukraine, though, it would not be as interesting.  But, since i brought it up.. when i was in Donetsk the people I talked to there told me it was Turks that did allt he heavy lifting in construction... made me wonder if the Turks work cheaper and are something like the Mexicans here in California...

[kievstar]

When is come to cosntruction a lot of the Ukriane men get drunk and not realiable for work each day.  So bigger companies do employ a number of foreigners.  Makes sense the turks would get the harder jobs.  I know the turks are the number one sex tourist in Ukraine.  FEMEN is targeting them right now. 

[Sculpto]

When I went into Ukraine the first time three years ago a plane from Turkey had landed at the same time.  Immigration scrutinized the large numbers of Turkish men heavily.  I expected the same when I finally got to the front of the line.. the guy took one look at the blue passport, stamped it, smiled and said welcome to Ukraine in Engish.

[BillyB]

Well, I don't really see the connection. I am sure there are great many capable mechanics who spends their nights and weekends partying, and I can't see why culinary skills and prostitution are necessarily incompatible.

Misha, sure there are always exceptions to the rule. But don't think those who take a chance marrying a prostitute will get the exception.

I've been on forums like this for over 4 years and I've read some men argue/rationalize that prostitutes can be just as good a wives compared to other women. It's possible a guy partying every night could get better grades than the guy who studies every night but the odds says not. We are usually influence by those around us and prostitutes are usually hanging around men who are below the norm in society, helping many men commit adultery and some knowingly passing around diseases all for money. They are not spending their time talking with other family oriented moms on how best to raise and feed their children or improving their lives through self education on various topics. Most likely they are spending their time with sleazy men, shooting drugs, and talking with other prostitutes on how to catch a man and how much to charge. I'm mainly referring to prostitutes who have a choice in life. I will not judge those will little or no choice starving in 3rd world countries or forced/sold into sex slavery against their will.

If a woman who's 30 years old and doesn't have basic domestic skills and a guy who's 30 years old doesn't know basic maintenance for a car and home and has a difficult time holding a job for whatever reason, don't you wonder where their head was at for all those years growing up? Were they learning something valuable at this time or spending most of their time high on drugs or hanging with wrong crowd? I'd like to feel I've done good in my life growing up and have a lot skills to contribute to a woman and my family and I want a woman who has a lot to contribute towards me and her family. If someone can give me reasons why prostitutes make good family oriented wives and mothers, known for being sincere and honest, and have great domestic skills, please educate me but I doubt I'd change my mind.

[Misha]

Misha, sure there are always exceptions to the rule. But don't think those who take a chance marrying a prostitute will get the exception.

Sorry, I don't get what you are saying here.

I've been on forums like this for over 4 years

Okay, but to be clear, I am basing my observations not on years spent on a forum, but months and years spent in Russia over a decade.

They are not spending their time talking with other family oriented moms on how best to raise and feed their children or improving their lives through self education on various topics.

Billy, you seem to speak with expertise about prostitutes, but how many have actually met? Then again, how many Russian women have you met? The above generalization, for example, could apply to countless Russian mothers who are not prostitutes.

Most likely they are spending their time with sleazy men, shooting drugs, and talking with other prostitutes on how to catch a man and how much to charge.

Again, how do you know this?

If a woman who's 30 years old and doesn't have basic domestic skills and a guy who's 30 years old doesn't know basic maintenance for a car and home and has a difficult time holding a job for whatever reason, don't you wonder where their head was at for all those years growing up?

Well, there are many other options, other than being a prostitute. They may have been spoiled and their mothers did all the cooking and cleaning. They may have been busy with their studies and work. They may not like cooking. There are many, many other explanations. My wife, for example, did not cook much when she was in Russia as she lived with her mother and an older sister. It is only once she was married and living with me that she discovered a knack for cooking. Does that mean she was a prostitute? Of course not.

Were they learning something valuable at this time or spending most of their time high on drugs or hanging with wrong crowd? I'd like to feel I've done good in my life growing up and have a lot skills to contribute to a woman and my family and I want a woman who has a lot to contribute towards me and her family.

Well, I couldn't change a spark plug to save my life. However, I earn a salary and pay my mechanic good money to maintain my car. Certainly does not imply that I spent the last twenty years high on drugs or hanging with the wrong crowd.

If someone can give me reasons why prostitutes make good family oriented wives and mothers, known for being sincere and honest, and have great domestic skills, please educate me but I doubt I'd change my mind.

Well, the issue IMHO is not whether prostitutes make good family oriented wives and mothers, but the sweeping generalization based on limited or no information. A woman who is not a good cook, does not imply that she was a prostitute.

[OlgaH]

Some students studying at the university work as prostitute at leisure.

I don't remember if I have mentioned this story... one day a businessmen visiting a "public house"  as usual, was offered to look at the new girls, he was very surprised when he saw among them his own daughter.

[BillyB]

Well, the issue IMHO is not whether prostitutes make good family oriented wives and mothers, but the sweeping generalization based on limited or no information. A woman who is not a good cook, does not imply that she was a prostitute.

You and Seriouslyjaded are not reading what others are reading and getting yourselves worked up. I never said all bad cooks are prostitutes. I said prostitutes are domestically clumsy when it comes to such things as cooking. It could mean anything or everything pertaining to domestic skills. Cooking was only used as one example. You mention spoiled women may not know how to cook and I will totally agree with you and I will not accuse you of making sweeping generalizations about spoiled women. They are not marriage material either IMO.

My experience on this issue comes for listening to men who utilized the services of commercial sex. I work in construction and the men here are not, on average, the finest in the World. Come to their defense too if you think I'm generalizing. Some truck drivers tell me how truck stop hookers go from one truck to the next servicing truck drivers all night non stop without a shower in between men. A lot of long haul truck drivers themselves don't take a daily shower. If by chance those hookers have children at home while they're doing their business at night every night, I just can't imagine them being good mothers or the type of women men are lining up to marry otherwise agencies wouldn't have any fear listing any of their women as current or former prostitutes. I hope the kids know how to cook. Because they are in the business they're in, they will become proficient in one thing and begin to lack proficiency in other areas of their life.

For the men going to the FSU, don't be blind. Observe and judge the woman's capabilities and lack of becasue that is what she's going to do with you.

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, I am familiar with 'Cogito, ergo sum'.. what would be the translation in Latin for 'I cook, therefore I am not' (a prostitute)?

Crustulo, ergo non sum (meretrix)

[kievstar]

There are different levels of prostitutes and what they charge.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution

Police in Kiev are now writing letters to the parents of girls caught being hookers right now.   Most are students.  Parents upset.  

Of course the truck stop hookers in USA you see on the tv "Cops" are a different story.

[Misha]

You and Seriouslyjaded are not reading what others are reading and getting yourselves worked up. I never said all bad cooks are prostitutes. I said prostitutes are domestically clumsy when it comes to such things as cooking.

Again, how do you know? How many prostitutes have invited you over for supper? You are assuming something based on ZERO knowledge.

My experience on this issue comes for listening to men who utilized the services of commercial sex.

Again, how would they know whether the women were capable of cooking and keeping a clean house? Perhaps I am naive, but presumably these men are paying for services other than having the woman prepare them a home-cooked meal.

Some truck drivers tell me how truck stop hookers go from one truck to the next servicing truck drivers all night non stop without a shower in between men.

Okay, I will grant you expertise on the AMERICAN prostitutes that AMERICAN TRUCK DRIVERS frequent on their travels. What bearing does this have on Russia or even the FSU?

For the men going to the FSU, don't be blind. Observe and judge the woman's capabilities and lack of because that is what she's going to do with you.

Well, I would add the importance on relying on generalizations that are completely meaningless.

[BillyB]

Misha,
   Based on your knowledge If you think it's low risk to marry a prostitute, then state why they're not much different from other women. I think it's high risk for a variety of reasons more than just them on average lacking domestic skills. You can start a poll if you want other people's opinions. I think you'll find most people will agree they aren't marriage material for whatever reasons they possess from the real or imagined experiences they've had with hookers.

Kievstar, I've heard of FSU students prostituting themselves too although the parents are paying for their education. Some are even opening their legs for teachers in exchange for good grades. Although I suspect their personal hygene is much better than truck stop hookers, there are still some real nasty things that happen behind closed doors requested by customers with twisted sick minds. Sure they'll occasionally get the clean cut educated suit and tie customer who just had a fight with the wife but not always the case. Regardless of how good an FSU student prostitute's hygene is, one still has to question their mind and character for opening their legs for money to buy a new mobile phone or a pair of shoes.

[Misha]

Based on your knowledge If you think it's low risk to marry a prostitute, then state why they're not much different from other women.

Again, I am just wondering about your insider information on Russian prostitutes. At no point did I say they make good wives (I don't know as I never married a prostitute), but I am questioning your affirmation that a prostitute can't be a good cook. I don't see why a prostitute would necessarily be a better or worse cook than any woman. She had a mother or a grandmother and was likely taught as much or as little as the average RW as a child. She eats and likely has to cook for herself from time to time. There is no secret school of cooking that excludes all prostitutes. I don't see any logical reason to justify your generalization.  Just answer this one, very simple question: how is it that you know that prostitutes must be bad cooks? Other than what American truck drivers have told you.

I think it's high risk for a variety of reasons more than just them on average lacking domestic skills.

Now it is on average. Was there a study conducted on house cleaning and domestic skills in Russia: prostitutes versus non prostitutes that I do not know about?

[Sculpto]

Somewhere back in the beginning of this thread I spoke about some firends I had that worked in the sex industry here in San Francisco.  I am not talking about one or two women, but, many.  Most worked as strippers but some also would agree to escort men on vacations to hawaii and other places.  A few worked only as escorts and one was a low level "success" in porn films who actually graduated to fetish films and moved to New York on the proceeds.  Each of these women got into the industry as students or to support their art careers or both.

In every single case, except one, all these amazing women, intelligent, talented and gorgeous, have train wrecked to one degree or another.  One is dead, another was institutionalized after a family and friends intervention, several others simply disappeared after extended periods of downward spiraling of drug abuse.. The one who managed to keep it all together was also the most beautiful and the one who made regular trips with a small number of "regular" men.  She was so focused on her success as a choreographer that she managed to keep things in perspective.  Today she works on Broadway.  However, even with pretty amazing career success she is incapable of keeping a relationship and is very aware she will spend her life alone.  

All of those women entered into the adult industry willingly, openly and with support of people round them.  None were drug addicts when they started but most ended up so after a few years.

Given the overall standards of living in the FSU, regardless of some idea that people are more sexually open there, and the conditions under which women may or may not choose to go into sex work willingly or by force, these are people who will for the rest of their lives have secrets and potential repurcussions.  The psychological damage is inescapable, even though some learn to adapt and seem outwardly stable, inside, women who do sex work suffer a lot of pain internally.  Paulo Coelho managed to romanticize the love a prostitute could feel for a certain man, but, I can assure you from experience such cases are not only rare but it makes a best seller exactly because people easily create fantasies about women who sell their soul as that very same fantasy.

And besides.. do you really think a woman who has sex with an unknown number of paying partners is going to be excited to have sex with "you" as her new husband?  Sure some prostitutes might love sex.. but again.. why do for free what you can get paid a lot to do?

[Sculpto]

You guys are arguing about a very small point in this.  some hookers can cook, others can not.  Same as anyone else.  However, I think the point is most hookers also tend to be lazy and spoiled.  They become accustomed to others doing things for them and paying them to do things.  Everything becomes a transactions with such people. 

[Misha]

And besides.. do you really think a woman who has sex with an unknown number of paying partners is going to be excited to have sex with "you" as her new husband?  

Well, there is no guarantee that a virgin will be excited to have sex with her husband either

The point that I am trying to make is that it would be foolish to come up with generalizations to the effect of "beware of women who can't cook as they may have been prostitutes."

[Misha]

They become accustomed to others doing things for them and paying them to do things.  Everything becomes a transactions with such people. 

Wouldn't that apply to most people? My employer pays me to do things and I pay other people to do things for me. The only difference is that sex is not involved.

[BillyB]

I am questioning your affirmation that a prostitute can't be a good cook.

For the second and last time, I've never said prostitutes are bad cooks or bad cooks are prostitutes. Re-read post #39 and #59 of this thread written by me.

Misha, seems like a struck a nerve of yours. I sense you're holding back but if you want to come out defending prostitutes, they're behavior, they're way of life and say it absolutely doesn't reduces their status as being marriage material, feel free to say so. If you don't believe there's a difference typing a letter for your boss or opening your legs for a stranger because it both pays, feel free to say so.  If you don't believe there's no behavioral difference between a woman who devouted her young life to being educated and the best wife and mother vs. a woman who devouted her life to making money sleeping with some strange and twisted men, you're free to state your opinions. I read men defending prostitutes before and I didn't get upset about that. If they're okay with marrying one, then so be it. It's their right and the right of a prostitute to get married. It doesn't make a difference to me if you state I have no hands on experience with actual prostitutes. I'm proud of that fact and I'm confident that my various "imagined" reasons are valid not to marry one.

[kievstar]

If no one has experience dating and marrying hookers or has any facts this thread will go forever.  I looked on the internet and found nothing that says hookers make bad wives.  Found nothing that says they make good wives either.  Find a lot of discussion about it but no evidence either way.

Many men have married hookers. 

I know girls who had few sex partners but their boyfriends pound them several times a day. Over a year their getting a lot more action than student hookers in Ukraine who usually go to the bar and take a guy home maybe 1 or 2 times a week.  So is it the number of partners or the times getting it. 

[SANDRO43]

I looked on the internet and found nothing that says hookers make bad wives. Found nothing that says they make good wives either.

Did you expect to ? Had I married a hooker, I'd be rather hesitant to make that world-public .

[Misha]

For the second and last time, I've never said prostitutes are bad cooks or bad cooks are prostitutes. Re-read post #39 and #59 of this thread written by me.

You wrote: "Although prostitutes will be good in bed or fake it as if they're inexperienced, they will most likely be domestically clumsy when it come to doing such things as cooking." Yes, you did not say that all prostitutes would be bad cooks, but you did say that they would most likely be domestically clumsy. I just find very odd you ability to speak with such certainly on matters.

Misha, seems like a struck a nerve of yours. I sense you're holding back but if you want to come out defending prostitutes, they're behavior, they're way of life and say it absolutely doesn't reduces their status as being marriage material, feel free to say so.

Yes, you have struck a cord. What I find odd are men who speak with such certainty about Russia and Russian women who have been to Russia or the FSU at best a few times and who don't even speak the language. I can't remember Billy. Have you ever been married to a RW? You wrote your 1,000 letters, but how many RW have you really known, non-prostitutes or otherwise in real life?  

If you don't believe there's no behavioral difference between a woman who devouted her young life to being educated and the best wife and mother vs. a woman who devouted her life to making money sleeping with some strange and twisted men, you're free to state your opinions.

Again, I am not saying that a prostitute would be an ideal wife. However, you are missing my point. What I am saying is that I find it peculiar that you make sweeping generalizations based on little or no knowledge.

[Misha]

Sorry, for some reason I ended up posting twice.

[OlgaH]

Husband finds wife is secret prostitute
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,23031716-5012895,00.html

Interesting why do they divorce    because his wife is secret prostitute or because her husband secretly visits the brothels