Humans as a commodity

[BillyB]

In other words Billy, not all escorts are crack whores.

I've never said all escorts are crack whores.

I'm finding many of your guys responses to what I've said bizarre. If a guy came out and said ""most likely" athletes are strong physically". Most regular people would simply agree. End of story.  But some of you , possibly blinded with anger towards the statement made and not reading it right or angry with the poster based on other views of his you've disagree with in the past, would come out and say "Don't make sweeping generalizations! and "not all athletes are strong physically!", "I know a few nerds and they're strong too so the statement you made is wrong!" and/or "I disagree, construction workers and firemen are strong too so being strong doesn't apply to just athletes!"

See my point. I know this can be one of those hot topic issues but debate what I've actually said, and not put words into my mouth. Is it so hard to agree that prostitutes are likely to be domestically clumsy? Heck, I'm domestically clumsy too and so are other men but I've never said I or they're spreading our legs for money. If you feel prostitutes are more likely to have better domestic skills over women of other professions instead of being more clumsy, then feel free to state your opinion/facts to counter what I said. Give me real examples and not a few exceptions to the rule. I've probably been approached by 5 prostitutes in my life offering services. I don't need to sleep with them to better understand their heart, mind, soul or the means and methods they will administer to get ahead in life. They may get emotionally attached to my wallet but that's as far as they'll let their emotions get attached to me. If they ever wanted to tell me their life story, should I believe it? A guy who has lots of experience and who works for me said all girls working the strip clubs tell him they are paying their way though education. How admirable! Is it true or not? A statement like that is guaranteed to generate bigger tips because it implies the stripper has honorable goals in life although they're short on money. Men who are still dreaming start to think they're decent girls on tough times and it's not their fault. Some men will get emotionally attached a beginning to think those women are marriage material and will try to persuade them to quit their job for a lifetime commitment and promise to financially take care of them. Most of the time those women choose big and easy money over the man who's willing to provide for them forever in a family oriented environment unless he's got big bucks and she wants to use him further. But those women are probably smarter than the men who pay for their services understanding that those guys aren't marriage material and would never seriously consider them for a husband. She'd rather look for a nice and naive man for a husband.

Most men don't want to marry a prostitute yet some don't know how to avoid them or are blinded by love/lust. I see guys come to the forum after a woman takes them shopping for  a $400 pair of shoes or to a restaurant for a $400 meal and they still don't quite understand what happen to them. Most likely they got involved with a pro dater. At least that's what everyone would say. Maybe she's a prostitute but who cares, a woman being a pro dater is enough reason to dump her. What a guy can look for is how a woman functions in her environment and try to understand if she has a love for money. When a person has a love for money, they are capable of doing anything whether it's stealing, using people, or just selling their body. Those people are also "more likely"(NOT ALL!) less responsible when it comes to doing domestic skills, work, school, or anything else that is productive to society.

[Ade]

I've never said all escorts are crack whores.

No you didn't but you talk like they are.

Is it so hard to agree that prostitutes are likely to be domestically clumsy?

That's the point you're having problems seeing; there is absolutely no correlation at all. None. Nada.

Now, if you asked, "Is it so hard to agree that crack whores are likely to be domestically clumsy?" I'd agree as crack has that sort of effect on a person. But sex, nope, can't say that the more sex I have the more "domestically clumsy" I become.

You seem to be under the impression that you could spot a prostitute a mile off and I contend that in a lot of cases you wouldn't have a clue.

[BillyB]

That's the point you're having problems seeing; there is absolutely no correlation at all. None. Nada.

Some people see a difference in how certain groups function pertaining to different things in life, other's don't see a different. I see prostitutes as not being marriage material for a variety of reasons besides them likely being domestically clumsy. Other men don't see a difference with a prostitute's behavior and skills in life compared to other groups of women and see them as being as much marriage material as the next girl. Different strokes for different folks. One thing is for certain, we are not all looking through the same pair of glasses as we see things differently.

No you didn't but you talk like they are.

If I wanted to say all escorts are crack whores, I'd say it. I'm not shy. What I've said is what I've said and I don't need others to twist my words around based on what they imagined I said.

[kievstar]

Billy,  You have to remember people on this board come from different culturally backgrounds and have different views on sex and love.  Also, words have different meanings.  

Pro daters to me are girls who take advantage of guys dating out of their league.  That is my view and  I am ok with others thinking differently.  There are pro dater men who take advantage of girls they do not care much about but when a girl comes around and catches his eye he changes. A guy who dates out of his league deserves to take a girl shopping for wasting her time. I know some girls who are called pro daters.  You know they take them shopping sometimes to see what type of man this man is.  They do not want to be with someone who is foolish.  Also, sometimes a man brags about money and they like to teach him a lesson.  But we only hear the mans version of what happened.  

I disagree with you that athletes are strong - golfers, tennis, ping pong, basketball, baseball, badmington, swimming, cycling, soccer.  I will agree UFC fighters are tough and strong.  I am twisting your words.  I think people get what your saying but you have to understand the World has different views.  I respect your views.

 

[BillyB]

Billy,  You have to remember people on this board come from different culturally backgrounds and have different views on sex and love.  

I think people get what your saying but you have to understand the World has different views.  

I do understand that, and I don't get upset at them for them having different views. I also don't follow guys around from thread to thread challenging them on every subject twisting their words just because I had a disagreement with them currently or in the past. If you haven't noticed, some people don't like others because of their different World views, views on politics or if they have something good to say about the USA or bad to say about another country and they let their feelings spill over into other threads. Maybe you don't know who I'm talking about but those people know and their letting their feelings get in the way of debating constructively making it personal. There can't be a contructive debate on new topics if people don't let things go from the past and you can't have a constructive debate or "different views" on a subject if you're taking a person's statement, imagining something different, getting emotional and angry on something that was never said.

[BC]

I agree completely Kievstar.  The answer is both working from bottom and top.  The worlds oldest profession will always have customers.  No, I do not believe many are willing.  Proving it is another issue.

If we have insufficient laws to break up rings.  Now, you are also looking at low level thugs being passed on to get to higher people and government officials.  The girls in Brussels in this case are just one aspect of this.

The other is that children are victims of sex acts.  This is not some red light district, it is in some hidden location.  The other is slave labor, and they are forced into farms, construction and sweat shops.  You do not catch those people hanging out on the corner.

When you look at the auction, there are many people that are involved with several locations and have different needs they are buying slaves for.  They then watch them and map out the rings from there.

This is futile if there is no enforcement, and then proper help for the victims being returned.

Diplomacy,

Where is the 'bottom' and where is the 'top' you want to battle with?

I would start with feeding and educating the youngest of the poorest of the poor, those that will be most easily sucked into forced slavery in the future (already a daunting worldwide task).  Anything else is quite futile - as hard as it sounds, you have to write off most of those that are still stuck in bad situations.  Rehabilitation is not a perfect science.

.. an ounce of prevention..

Is interesting that in Soviet times, we heard a bit about Intourist devushka's but that's about it.. nowdays is a whole different story.

Maybe the Soviet system wasn't that bad at all?

Back then, the block across from the Frankfurt Main train station was filled with German girls.. nowdays you'll have a hard time finding even one I bet..

[ScottinCrimea]

I do understand that, and I don't get upset at them for them having different views. I also don't follow guys around from thread to thread challenging them on every subject twisting their words just because I had a disagreement with them currently or in the past. If you haven't noticed, some people don't like others because of their different World views, views on politics or if they have something good to say about the USA or bad to say about another country and they let their feelings spill over into other threads. Maybe you don't know who I'm talking about but those people know and their letting their feelings get in the way of debating constructively making it personal. There can't be a contructive debate on new topics if people don't let things go from the past and you can't have a constructive debate or "different views" on a subject if you're taking a person's statement, imagining something different, getting emotional and angry on something that was never said.

BillyB, You're at it again.  For those of you who don't know what BillyB is referring to, In one thread KenC and I made some comments about previous things he had posted and BillyB accused us of being liars.  In response, I went back through some of his posts and quoted his statements exactly, showing that we had spoken the truth.  Rather than apologize to us, he pulled the same routine he is pulling now, claiming that he is a victim of some conspiracy and that everyone is twisting his words and digging up the past.  For example, he made this response:

Scott. Once again I will repeat I did not say a woman with zero domestic skills equals a prostitute.

But the funny thing is that I never accused him of making this statement.  Just who is twisting what?

But now let's get down to the discussion at hand, and I will use direct quotes from him so there can be no question of any word twisting going on.

Now the first thing that really gets to me is how he claims to be an authority on prostitutes, arguing with those who by their own admission have more experience than him.  Just what is his experience?  Here is what he has said:

"I have no hands on experience with actual prostitutes"

"My experience on this issue comes for listening to men who utilized the services of commercial sex"

Based on this authority he claims to have knowledge of the domestic skills of prostitutes, their motivations, their attitudes, etc.

He tries to back off from his statements by using the terms, "most likely" and "on average"  which I think we all would agree means more do than don't.  When confronted, he makes this statement:

"For the second and last time, I've never said prostitutes are bad cooks or bad cooks are prostitutes"

Now this is some real backpeddling, as he clearly stated before this, clarifying his meaning:

"I said prostitutes are domestically clumsy when it comes to such things as cooking."

Note the further backpedaling:

"It's good to know that you realize "most likely' doesn't mean "all" and "clumsy" doesn't mean "bad".

In the quote above he stated that that prostitutes are domestically clumsy - Not some, not most likely, just "prostitutes".  Without a qualifier, that means all.

And "clumsy" doesn't mean bad?  so someone can be clumsy at something and be good at it?  Sorry BillyB, but clumsy is a bad thing.  Can you name one realistic situation where being clumsy is good?

Now I agree that you never said that all escorts are crack whores, but you did say this:

"Most likely they are spending their time with sleazy men, shooting drugs, and talking with other prostitutes on how to catch a man and how much to charge"

So if a woman is a prostitute she most likely spends her time shooting drugs?  While the rate of drug use is higher among prostitutes than the general public (most are drug addicts before they become prostitutes), it's just plain wrong to assume that because a woman is a prostitute she also shoots drugs.

Now BillyB, all of these quotes are from the current thread and they are yours, with absolutely no editing so there can be no claim of "twisting your words".

I'm just tired of you playing the victim every time you make some outlandish claims and someone challenges you on them.  It really gets in the way of a positive debate when you set your feet in cement in this way. Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we don't understand you.

Now as far as the discussion itself, I see the views of both sides.  Even BillyB has some good points when he doesn't paint himself into a corner with broad generalizations based on zero experience.  I agree that it is an issue that needs to be dealt with somehow.  Just what is the best way, I don't know, but hearing others' ideas has been interesting.  As far as marrying a prostitute, there is just too much gray area and variables to be making any sweeping statements about what should be an individual's choice and not to be judged by others.

[BC]

I'm just tired of you playing the victim every time you make some outlandish claims and someone challenges you on them.  It really gets in the way of a positive debate when you set your feet in cement in this way. Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we don't understand you.

Now as far as the discussion itself, I see the views of both sides.  Even BillyB has some good points when he doesn't paint himself into a corner with broad generalizations based on zero experience.  I agree that it is an issue that needs to be dealt with somehow.  Just what is the best way, I don't know, but hearing others' ideas has been interesting.  As far as marrying a prostitute, there is just too much gray area and variables to be making any sweeping statements about what should be an individual's choice and not to be judged by others.

amen

[ScottinCrimea]

My reference should be verified with this report.  I am involved along with several other Masons, Politicians, Religious groups, and a web of people doing something about this.  We are also trying to stop aide from getting stolen and replaced with junk.  The aide is then sold at government staged 2nd hand stores or on the black market. 

Diplomacy,  This reference mentions Russia and Ukraine as transit points for trafficking, specifically mentioning other FSU countries, not so much worldwide, which makes sense from a geographical point, traveling from their place of origin to the place they are "assigned", for lack of a better word.  From your posts, though, you seem to have additional information that suggests that girls from all over the world are gathered to these countries for the specific purpose of auctioning them off as slaves to the highest bidder.  Your reference doesn't mention that and I would be interested in seeing some specific sources related to that, as, if it is true that there is such a centralized organization, it seems it would be easier to strike directly at that point, for example finding out when one of these auctions takes place and making it public.  It would be hard for any government to ignore specific proof such as a videotaped or tape recorded auction.

As far as your other crusade against aid being stolen, I had first hand experience with that during my time living in South America.  I often saw cans of cooking oil on store shelves with the words "United Way, not to be sold" printed on them.  The typical routes of distribution of aid there was either through the schools or through the local church.  The principal or church leaders would routinely skim off the best donated goods for resell. There has to be a way found to get the aid to those for whom it is intended with better transparency and oversight, but this can be difficult.  I widh you luck in your efforts.

[docetae]

About human traficking, this is well known for Europe that you have 3 main "platforms" : Baltic countries, Adriatic (mainly Bosnia/Albania) and Ukraine. Ukraine is a little different as supplying two markets, one south (Egypt, Turkey) and one west.

Info is from one of my family member who was working in french gendarmerie (part of police in France managed by the army) as officer.

This is managed by network. Each part of the network (supplier, conveyor, etc) are independant and as for drug trafficking (both are often linked), you need to make fall the organisation to get success. If you hit one part, someone else will take immediately the free position.

[OlgaH]

From International Organization for Migration Moldova
http://www.iom.md/faq_ht.html

Destination countries include the Balkan states (Macedonia, Bosnia, Albania and Kosovo). They are also sent to Western Europe, Russia, Turkey, United Arab Emirates and Israel. In the Balkans, the demand is fueled by locals, but also by foreign troops stationed on peace-keeping missions. Elsewhere, the victims are sold into sex slavery rings and used as forced labor.

[BillyB]

Scott, it would have been more gentlemanly of you to apologize for your misinterpretation of what I wrote instead of going on that long rant.

BillyB, You're at it again.  For those of you who don't know what BillyB is referring to, In one thread KenC and I made some comments about previous things he had posted and BillyB accused us of being liars. 

I was not referring to you but to SeriouslyJaded for twice misinterpreting what I wrote. I'd like to believe he simply misinterpreted what I wrote as you did but he has a good grasp of English based on his writings to know better. Maybe you can refresh my memory, what thread and what post #, on calling you and KenC a "liar" because I don't have a habit of saying that word to anybody.

[Diplomacy]

http://www.insideout.org/documentaries/snakeheadsslavery/part1.asp

Scott:

I do not have a reference point for the world import.  It has to do with the border of Israel as it was told to me.  The majority are FSU citizens.  I asked about the logistic issue, it is easier to do in other geographic locations. 

Fake Russian passport and I believe no visa restriction to Israel.  That is the best I can offer on that point.

[Diplomacy]

BC:

I got to hope that it was better then, and this is just a recent downturn in the FSU.  I have very little information of the way it was, and what I hear it is not always true.

I guess the issue becomes expectations. I do not expect it will be stopped.  Just some people stopped, and made harder to do.  Any more than my brothers stopped slavery with the underground railroad.  It existed to save as many as they can. 

When is it deemed a success is a hard one I guess, it is a personal thing.  I have had many discussions on just that.  Some days it just does not seem worth the effort.  Knowing we stopped 5 containers of aide this year from being stolen and hard prison terms for 3.  I just can not give an answer for that.  Was a lot of aide still stolen, yes.  Is it a failure, not in the minds of those that got that aide.  The sad part it is easier to put someone in jail for stealing aide then people.


Not many Americans care about the FSU or what goes on there.  So what little aide that actually goes there is a big deal. 

Was seeds given out to the elderly, to then have some people steal all the vegetables out of their Dacha.  Yes, but many have food for the winter that would not now. 

You just can not dwell on the horrible side of mankind.

It all started for me with the boy I mentioned in a previous post.  He was an orphan from Ukraine.  He horded food, and ate anything out that could be eaten.  He was almost more animal than human.  Children love me, and well I was called to observe and help.  That day changed me, forever.  I started researching, and could not believe what I was reading about the conditions.  Then another local child cried nonstop for 6 months.  The people that love and care for these children are amazing.

Then the child orphanage was linked in a report as you stated to child trafficking.  I just became passionate because I told some people and almost nobody knew about it.

Then I decided there was little I needed more than to make a difference in a child's life like the other people had.  I am not married, so I would need to save enough to pay a Nanny and still have enough to live on.  I took a job that required I not travel all the time, I live far from my family.   

All I know is if we do nothing, then it continues for sure.  The easier it is to do, the harder it is to stop.  Check out the part of harvesting organs too.  think they are dead when they take them?

Then my friend told me about a guy we knew was married to a girl from Russia, and he had been there many times.  I knew most Americans just would say Russia, the Ukraine was not a country many knew about.

He was all excited I was going, and they were also adopting a girl from Siberia at one point.  I asked how he met his wife, and he said in Odessa.  Then about ten minutes later of explaining she says she is Russian but lived in the Ukraine.  Yeah that one was confusing.  I do not argue the point.     I got a thrashing on that from her ouch. 

Well he brought up his wife has a good friend in Kiev.  She is in the middle of social reformation, and single   Well in the end she had left Kiev, and went back to Lugansk.  It seems he missed that point and his wife told him 100 times.  Yes, they are talkers.

We talked and hit it off.  Then I said your an idiot, this woman is what you always were looking for.  I asked her if she had any romantic interests in me.  She said you beautiful man.  Ok, interesting way to put it.  It was better than no anyways.

So are my efforts futile?  Well it sure put me in the right place to find a wonderful woman and a son at that same time.  Weird how it works out sometimes huh?

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott, it would have been more gentlemanly of you to apologize for your misinterpretation of what I wrote instead of going on that long rant.

I was not referring to you but to SeriouslyJaded for twice misinterpreting what I wrote. I'd like to believe he simply misinterpreted what I wrote as you did but he has a good grasp of English based on his writings to know better. Maybe you can refresh my memory, what thread and what post #, on calling you and KenC a "liar" because I don't have a habit of saying that word to anybody.

 :whirling: :whirling: :whirling:

BillyB, I think you're not getting it.  What exactly did I misinterpret?  I quoted you word for word.  No interpretation necessary.

As far as refreshing your memory, If you look at the thread "Epidemic of cold feet" in the Experienced section, post #54, you accused us of making "false claims" and in #63 you accused KenC of making "false allegations".  If we look at the definition of a lie it is defined as "A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood".  No matter which word you used, you called us liars.

For those of you who want to see BillyB's victim act in all its glory, check out this thread.

[Misha]

Just because we don't agree with you doesn't mean we don't understand you.

Well, I have to say that Scott's reading of Billy's posts pretty much matches mine. 

[Ade]

Scott, it would have been more gentlemanly of you to apologize for your misinterpretation of what I wrote instead of going on that long rant.

I was not referring to you but to SeriouslyJaded for twice misinterpreting what I wrote. I'd like to believe he simply misinterpreted what I wrote as you did but he has a good grasp of English based on his writings to know better. Maybe you can refresh my memory, what thread and what post #, on calling you and KenC a "liar" because I don't have a habit of saying that word to anybody.

I have to say that I'm very confused.

Maybe you really do believe that I've misinterpreted your posts but if that is the case, then I have to seriously doubt your grasp of the English language. And I'm honestly not kidding nor am I trying to be sarcastic here.

[BillyB]

As far as refreshing your memory, If you look at the thread "Epidemic of cold feet" in the Experienced section, post #54, you accused us of making "false claims" and in #63 you accused KenC of making "false allegations".  If we look at the definition of a lie it is defined as "A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood".  No matter which word you used, you called us liars.

KenC told the forum I like to brag about a successful business I owned in an attack towards me. I told him I never said that and he's making false allegations. Anyone can use the search engine here to verify and of course Ken couldn't back up his allegations. As for you, I still can't find where I called you a liar based on what you provided and you have little reason for your feelings to be hurt and carry a grudge. Maybe you can help the forum out with giving them an actual  link to where I was referring to you as being a liar.

Seriouslyjaded, most guys have asked me for my experience but they have not questioned yours when you stated you were communicating on the internet with a prostitute in an attempt to demonstrate to me why all prostitutes are not crack whores.

You said she was a student at a University and was very bright. Did you verify this or just took her word as fact? You said she lived with two other women who were bright women studying too and charging men for sex. You said they were open with you and told you they were very selectable with men they slept with. Do you honestly believe that? They presented themselves the best way possible for the profession they're in. They marketed themselves well and even got their own website. They offered themselves in an package deal to you, a virtual stranger, and if they can do that with you, they can do that with anybody on the internet. Some of those "high quality" strange men on the internet who they slept with could be wearing suits and ties based on photos but they could also be into child porn or freaky stuff such as beastiality. I once read a World sex forum and it's quite disturbing to read what the men write about. How a woman can sleep with guys like that raises serious questions about their mentality and character. You ask me how I know these women aren't good with domestic skills? Ask those women how they know they're only sleeping with decent disease free men. I wish you believed me as easily as you believed them but I guess I don't have a set of tits.

You then go on to say you're sure they have successful careers and have no or few psychological scars for their adventures.  If I gave a story like that, you guys would have ripped into me for believing everything said from a person I've never met.

IMO those prostitutes have no idea on who they're sleeping with and they don't care as much as they like you to think. I trust nothing they say.

[Shadow]

BillyB  I know that prostitutes who are independent and not on drugs do select the men they are sleeping with.
Also I can confirm that they see their clients as work, which means that they interact with them just like you would interact with your clients. Some are nice, others are jerks but good for the money.

As they separate their job from their private life, there is no difference in skills outside their work environment.

[Ade]

Seriouslyjaded, most guys have asked me for my experience but they have not questioned yours when you stated you were communicating on the internet with a prostitute in an attempt to demonstrate to me why all prostitutes are not crack whores.

Yes, you're right, no one asked for my experience and I'll tell you now that it's very limited. I'll also admit to never having slept with one but that's not really the point. The point I did try to make with my little anecdote is that not all women that sell their bodies for sex fit into your very limited and simplistic characterisation and your assertions that a woman's "domestic skills" are even remotely related to whether their are an escort or not is laughable; that's just common sense and logic based on life experience.

FWIW, I once dated a woman for a year; some months after we started our relationship I found out that up until we'd met she'd been extremely promiscuous; we're talking 100's of guys. Not only were her domestic skills just fine but also her bed skills were somewhat lacking; this woman at least didn't have the bizarre predictable traits that some people here seem to think she should have had. Oh yeah, it turned out that she was also a pot head.

You said she was a student at a University and was very bright. Did you verify this or just took her word as fact?

I talked to these girls several times and they were obviously bright. But yes, you're right, it could have been a big scam although they would have to have been very good at it for there to have been absolutely no holes in their stories - their website disappeared probably around the time they graduated. I guess that could have been done to give a little more credit to their story too. The rest is assumption but again based on life experience here in Scandinavia.
So yes, it's a possibility that it was all made up like there's a possibility you  really are fat trucker wearing drag living in a worn out trailer; a lot of things are possible but sometimes we have to go with what's more likely, right?

You said she lived with two other women who were bright women studying too and charging men for sex. You said they were open with you and told you they were very selectable with men they slept with. Do you honestly believe that?

Um, yes. I do believe her. There was no reason for her to lie at that time although again, it's a possibility but given the context of our talks I had and have no reason to doubt her.

They presented themselves the best way possible for the profession they're in. They marketed themselves well and even got their own website. They offered themselves in an package deal to you, a virtual stranger, and if they can do that with you, they can do that with anybody on the internet.

I'm curious, have you ever been in a bar, a nightclub or even a party where adults that have just met "hook up"?

Some of those "high quality" strange men on the internet who they slept with could be wearing suits and ties based on photos but they could also be into child porn or freaky stuff such as beastiality. I once read a World sex forum and it's quite disturbing to read what the men write about.

Oh yes, there are some very strange sexual deviants around that's for sure. And that's related how exactly?

How a woman can sleep with guys like that raises serious questions about their mentality and character. You ask me how I know these women aren't good with domestic skills? Ask those women how they know they're only sleeping with decent disease free men. I wish you believed me as easily as you believed them but I guess I don't have a set of tits.

Dude, I see you're a little innocent when it comes to sex n' stuff. Trust me, there are females out there that are into sexual deviations just as much as the men out there.

I think I'd like yo hear your definition of "domestic skills".

You then go on to say you're sure they have successful careers and have no or few psychological scars for their adventures.  If I gave a story like that, you guys would have ripped into me for believing everything said from a person I've never met.

Yes, maybe they will try to rip me a new one now too but I was there, I had the conversations, there was in my opinion nothing to be gained by them lying so given the context I took it as the truth. I didn't grow up with a silver spoon up my arse you know and I'm far from naive.

As for the psychological scars; well, their attitudes seemed to be well grounded and issue free from what I could tell. Maybe they did have some emotional damage afterwards but my guess is that it would be no more than other ladies I've dated that have slept around.

IMO those prostitutes have no idea on who they're sleeping with and they don't care as much as they like you to think. I trust nothing they say.

Oh yes, you're right, you shouldn't take anything anyone says as gospel.

I'm curious though, how much do you know about your girlfriend and past girlfriends? Do you think they wouldn't be able to hide a promiscuous lifestyle from you if they wanted?

[Misha]

You then go on to say you're sure they have successful careers and have no or few psychological scars for their adventures.

Billy, how exactly do you define "psychological scars"? In reading your posts, I have to say that I detect a strong undertone whereby you describe sex in very lewd terms and portray sex as a scary and scarring experience.

IMO those prostitutes have no idea on who they're sleeping with and they don't care as much as they like you to think. I trust nothing they say.

Well, I would say that most men don't know who they are sleeping with either. If you have a one-night stand, you are not likely to know much about the woman. That is why you take certain precautions such as wearing condoms to minimize your risks of being infected with an STD.

[BillyB]

BillyB  I know that prostitutes who are independent and not on drugs do select the men they are sleeping with.

Shadow, I know that there are various types of prostitutes, some much more cleaner and decent than others. I never said one size fits all. I've use the worst examples because one doesn't know what he's getting when he takes a chance bedding a prostitute. When it comes to risks bedding a prostitute, it's best to assume the worst than to assume the best.

Misha, if you read enough of my posts, I'm all for "lots" of healthy, monogamous sex/physical affection. It's an excellent tool to determine if the woman is into you and considers you a man she wants to romantically be involved with or be just a friend if physical affection is lacking. Some have said I talk about the importance of sex in a relationship too much so no, I don't believe sex is a scary and scarring experience.

SeriouslyJaded, when it comes to current or past girlfriends, I don't assume the worst when I enter a relationship with them. I do observe their behavior and if they say they're family oriented and it's not my version of family oriented, then I move on. When they tell me or others they will do something, I expect those things to happen. There are opportunities for her to earn or lose my trust too. People with shady backgrounds can't become an angel overnight and their colors would eventually come out if not initially.  I also live my life in a certain way and I live modestly. I'm a big turn off for money hungry women and party girls. They'll prefer to go look for an easier catch to get what they want. But once I marry a woman, I'll hand over my checkbook. Hopefully I make the right choice and she spends the money wisely. I can tell you that I'm a lot smarter now than I was 10 years ago when it comes to evaluating women.

Many times on the forum when a guy comes forth and says a RW took him shopping or at a restaurant for a $400 pair of shoes or dinner, most everyone comes out and says she's a pro-dater and to get rid of her. Nobody questions their experiences. It's pretty obvious the risk of getting into a relationship with women who do that to men. Of course there's always the exception. With talking about prostitutes it's different not only here but at other forums where guys would either defend them saying their basically regular women and even marriage material or put them down. To me there are many risks with prostitutes if not more than compared to pro-daters. Maybe someone can start a thread about how to distinguish a prostitute from a sincere woman. I can't because I'll be leaving on vacation for two weeks in a couple of days and besides, my thoughts don't count with some of you because I haven't slept with or been in a relationship with a prostitute.  But seriously, if you don't can't see the difference in women, you're hurting and if you have to ask a sincere woman what's the difference between her and a prostitute is because you don't see any difference, you're really hurting.

[kievstar]

Billy, regarding the expensive dinners a man should always order for his lady on first few dates.  Also, a man does not have to go shopping.  A lot of rich guys go to Ukraine / Russia and girls get spoiled.  Just like us men with the opportunity to date a lot of pretty girls.  Many of these girls are sincere.

Have a great vacation. 

[ScottinCrimea]

KenC told the forum I like to brag about a successful business I owned in an attack towards me. I told him I never said that and he's making false allegations. Anyone can use the search engine here to verify and of course Ken couldn't back up his allegations. As for you, I still can't find where I called you a liar based on what you provided and you have little reason for your feelings to be hurt and carry a grudge. Maybe you can help the forum out with giving them an actual  link to where I was referring to you as being a liar.

BillyB, my feelings aren't hurt and I don't carry grudges.  I just don't like being attacked for disagreeing with someone and being falsely accused of twisting the truth when the evidence shows otherwise.  You offered the challenge to search for the truth, so I did just that.  If the truth hurts, so be it.


This is going to be a long post, so if you don't want to read it all, here's a summary:

It's just another example of BillyB, debate style.  In the middle of some discussion he will make some outlandish statement.  When others challenge him on this and ask for substantiation, he can't provide it so he begins backpedaling and claiming that eveyone is twisting his words or misinterpreting him.  If his own words are replayed for him, he begins personal attacks and then moves on to victim mode, claiming a conspiracy to ridicule him.  I'm sure this works fine for him in an oral debate, but here, where everything is saved and available to recheck, it doesn't fly and one can sense his frustration.


BillyB, Are you sure that you want to rehash this?  You looked rather foolish then and I would think that you wouldn't want a repeat.  But since you are misrepresenting what occurred, allow me to set the record straight.  I don't know why you insist on challenging people to check your old posts to confirm something you claim, because this was at the heart of the thread we are talking about and in every case, your old posts have bitten you in the butt.  Here's the link to the thread, and post #71 gives a nice summary:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=7813.135

In summary, the issue of you boasting about your business was not what led you to claim KenC was making false accusations.  Both KenC (in post #53) and I (in post #51) noted that you frequently boasted of your sexual prowess and offered advice.  Remember this was the thread where you had the balls to ask Olga if she had ever had an orgasm. You responded with the following in post #54

" Thank you Riv. You get it. Out of thousands of my posts, I may have spoke about the imortance of sex here in this thread and maybe one other time yet many here think I'm focused on sex alone. Go figure? They have bad memories or ignore the many times I've spoken about how to treat a woman, how to act in front of her, being faithful, fulfilling her needs, how to better your own life for the benefit of your lady, and how to win her over without material possessions. Why do they forget or ignore? Maybe for personal reasons or to make me look bad. For you newbies who believe I'm focused on sex or like to boast about owning a successful business based on what others say, read my past posts for yourself. I have reasons to be upset with false claims but my lady knows the truth and she's happy with all of me."

In post #56, KenC makes it clear we're talking about the issue of BillyB bragging about sex, not about the business, and in post #63 BillyB accuses KenC of making stuff up and making false allegations:

"There you go making up stuff again. Ken, I've been rather calm and nice considering the false allegations, that haven't been retracted, made to ridicule/make me look bad."

There is no question that you accused both KenC and me of having poor memories, making things up and making false accusations and allegations.  It's right there in your own words.  Maybe you didn't use the word liar, but you used the definition.

You said that we were wrong and that if anyone searched your posts they would find maybe one or two quotes where you mentioned sex, so I did just that and in only a few minutes I found eight pretty damning examples of you doing just what you claimed you never did.  I imagine if I took the time to look for any posts of you bragging about your successful business I would probably find them too.  Do you want me to do that?

So both KenC and I asked for an apology, because it was obvious that we did not have poor memories and that our allegations and accusations were right on the money.  Based on your own posts, it was obviously you that was not being forthright.

Now at this point you would think BillyB would acknowledge that he was wrong and what we had said was true, but instead he jumps into personal attacks such as suggesting I have no brain and no life and brings my wife into the discussion with post #82:

"Scott, you must have spent a considerable amount of time of yours to look for dirt out of thousands of posts of mine and have taken some quotes out of context when made in fun. Why don't you give people links to the threads I made those statements at? Most people with brains can see I was having some fun with some of those statements although some are serious and I'm not embarrassed about writing them. I've even told my fiancee to feel free to read and participate here. Have you done the same with your wife? Next time your wife upsets you, let us know her reaction after you spend hours looking for dirt on her. You and a few other guys(you know who you are) do this to other posters here too when you're not happy with what they say. It's just the internet. Get a life."

He also lashes out at KenC in post #84:

"
Ken, you're here morning, noon and night. Take a break from the computer and spend some time with the family. Rediscover the reason why you wanted to get married. Seriously."

We didn't back off and in post #89 I restated his poor case and again asked for an apology:

"Billy, I have repeatedly asked you to provide a reference to the dictionary reference that you state is so obvious and clear in its agreement with your definition and you are unable to do so.  You just repeat the tired argument that "everyone knows what I say is true".  Instead, when Olga provides some pretty clear definitions to the contrary, with links and solid references, you choose one (Wikipedia) that you have used in the past as an authority to back up your arguments, and now try to discredit it.  Sorry, but you just can't have it both ways. What about all of the other sources she cited?  You're going to have to refute each and every one of then to make your argument stand up.  Give us a solid basis for showing that all of her references are wrong or just admit that maybe you are the one who's missing something.

It didn't take me hours to find those excerpts from your posts, actually it was pretty easy as I only had to look at a few.  I'm sure I could go back and find more, but those I provided showed things pretty clearly.  By asking me to show the links are you implying that these were not your quotes?  I really don't see how these quotes would appear any different in any context, but if you are so certain they were taken out of context, feel free to show it.

I find it sad that you have to resort to bringing my wife into this.  I purposely avoided discussing yours and find it rather pathetic and disgusting that you now resort to such.

Now let's get back to the issue you are dancing around. You accused KenC and I of having short memories and making false accusations about you because you claimed that you had only mentioned the importance of sex maybe one time.  Unless you claim that the posts I listed weren't yours, it's apparent that our memories are just fine, what we stated was true, and that what you stated was blatantly untrue.  I know you're not a fan of facts, but they show it's YOU who are making the false accusations.


We're still waiting for the apology......"

Of course no apology was ever forthcoming and from there it was just BillyB in his victim mode.

So I've provided a link and exact quotes (I did add some bolding).  No twisting, no misinterpretation.

and BillyB, I'm still waiting for that apology.

[Ade]

But seriously, if you don't can't see the difference in women, you're hurting and if you have to ask a sincere woman what's the difference between her and a prostitute is because you don't see any difference, you're really hurting.

Dude, of course I can see "differences in women" but you are missing the point again; not all prostitutes/escorts are bad people, party animals, and/or drug users and there is nothing to differentiate them from a "sincere woman" because they can be "sincere women". You have the false impression that these women are so obviously prostitutes that you would have no trouble recognizing them no matter what; maybe you think they all walk around dressed in micro minis all the time, heavily made up and with track marks up their arms or something? This is not the case and I think you should get a reality check out of that comfortable little self delusion you have going there.

And, actually, I am so seriously not hurting about anything right now. 

Oh, and getting back to the point I made about some escorts being very picky about who they sleep with; I remember coming across a page once for a Norwegian high class escort (a very good looking woman in her late 30's or early 40's I think) that was available by appointment and she stated very clearly on her pages that she was very picky and if you didn't measure up to her standards you wouldn't be entertained. She even said her husband was available to join in upon request. Some people are just kinky.