Do FSU women have stronger morals?

[GoodOlBoy]

One other thing and then I will be quiet. I really do believe that we are all "products" of our environment. Wherever you grew up.

[Lily]

Hi, just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I lived in Siberia several years ago for a couple of month's. I met several women and my wife. I can tell you one thing that kind of shocked me. A lot of women, atleast in that area of Russia, party/sleep/holiday with their bosses/supervisors. I was absolutely shocked at the "matter of fact" attitude concerning this topic. My wife told me one time a phrase used concerning this behavior, but I can't remember the phrase now. But it had to do with "survival skills". I am not sure you can equate American or Western morals to Russian morals. The living situations are COMPLETELY different (ie: economic's, less men, little or no opportunities for advancement...etc.).

I have lived and worked in Siberia (Krasnoyarsk) for a few years. What you describe here is not the norm, but rather a sad case. That may be sometimes practicing in smaller private companies with an extremely low corporate culture, and concerns people with zero morals. Also I guess that your wife was probably joking about survival skills.

[Lily]

One other thing and then I will be quiet. I really do believe that we are all "products" of our environment. Wherever you grew up.

I'd contunue your though - we are all "products" of our environment until we reach some 20-23 years old. After that we are what we make out of ourselves

[GoodOlBoy]

I have lived and worked in Siberia (Krasnoyarsk) for a few years. What you describe here is not the norm, but rather a sad case. That may be sometimes practicing in smaller private companies with an extremely low corporate culture, and concerns people with zero morals. Also I guess that your wife was probably joking about survival skills.

Sexual harassment just part of the job in Russia
by Sandy Maple Aug 2nd 2008 12:00PM

Categories: Just for moms, Money & work, In the news

"Ladies, if you think your job is bad, be thankful that you don't work in Russia. A recent survey of female professionals in that country finds that 100% of them have been subjected to sexual harassment by their bosses. That is not a typo - One Hundred Percent. 32 percent say they have had intercourse with the boss at least once and another 7 percent say they have been raped on the job.

Sexual harassment is so prevalent there that it often begins before a woman even gets a job. University students say it is not uncommon for females to perform sexual favors in return for high marks and job-seekers report they are often forced to have sex during job interviews.

If you wonder how this can be, look no further than the comments of a judge, who recently dismissed yet another sexual harassment case. Despite a 22-year-old executive's allegations that she had been locked out of her office for refusing to have sex with her boss, the judge threw the case out. It isn't that he didn't believe her. It's that he thinks this type of behavior is necessary to ensure that humans continue to breed. "If we had no sexual harassment we would have no children," the judge ruled.

This outrageous abuse isn't limited to the workplace, either. According to human rights activists, Russian women suffer from some of the highest levels of domestic abuse in the world. I don't know about you, but I had no idea that Russian women had it so bad. I find the whole thing disgusting and it certainly puts my workplace complaints into perspective."

[Lily]

  A recent survey of female professionals in that country finds that 100% of them have been subjected to sexual harassment by their bosses. That is not a typo - One Hundred Percent. 32 percent say they have had intercourse with the boss at least once and another 7 percent say they have been raped on the job.

 

The author of the survey apparently did a careful selection of her sample, as soon as she got 100% of sexually abused women to participate at the survey

 

[GoodOlBoy]

Follow Up:

Sexual harassment okay as it ensures humans breed, Russian judge rules
A Russian advertising executive who sued her boss for sexual harassment lost her case after a judge ruled that employers were obliged to make passes at female staff to ensure the survival of the human race.
 
By Adrian Blomfield in Moscow
Last Updated: 1:12PM BST 30 Jul 2008

The unnamed executive, a 22-year-old from St Petersburg, had been hoping to become only the third woman in Russia's history to bring a successful sexual harassment action against a male employer.

She alleged she had been locked out of her office after she refused to have intimate relations with her 47-year-old boss.

"He always demanded that female workers signalled to him with their eyes that they desperately wanted to be laid on the boardroom table as soon as he gave the word," she earlier told the court. "I didn't realise at first that he wasn't speaking metaphorically."

The judge said he threw out the case not through lack of evidence but because the employer had acted gallantly rather than criminally.

"If we had no sexual harassment we would have no children," the judge ruled.

Since Soviet times, sexual harassment in Russia has become an accepted part of life in the office, work place and university lecture room.

According to a recent survey, 100 per cent of female professionals said they had been subjected to sexual harassment by their bosses, 32 per cent said they had had intercourse with them at least once and another seven per cent claimed to have been raped.

Eighty per cent of those who participated in the survey said they did not believe it possible to win promotion without engaging in sexual relations with their male superiors.

Women also report that it is common to be browbeaten into sex during job interviews, while female students regularly complain that university professors trade high marks for sexual favours.

Only two women have won sexual harassment cases since the collapse of the Soviet Union, one in 1993 and the other in 1997.

Human rights activists say that Russian women remain second-class citizens and are subjected to some of the highest levels of domestic abuse in the world.

[Lily]

A horror story indeed, but what is more horrifying is the viewpoint of a Russian lawmaker

[ScottinCrimea]

As GoodolBoy alluded to, I think it's unrealistic to expect to draw any sort of conclusions based on the question.  I think the definition of "moral" varies from culture to culture and even from individual to individual.  One person can rightly claim to be moral doing something that would shock another person.

I think a better question would be, "Do FSU women more commonly have morals that match my own?

Once you define what are your morals, then search for a woman who matches your views.  You can find one in any culture.

[Andrew James]

As GoodolBoy alluded to, I think it's unrealistic to expect to draw any sort of conclusions based on the question.  I think the definition of "moral" varies from culture to culture and even from individual to individual.  One person can rightly claim to be moral doing something that would shock another person.

I think a better question would be, "Do FSU women more commonly have morals that match my own?

Once you define what are your morals, then search for a woman who matches your views.  You can find one in any culture.

There is tendency in western thinking for people to see morality in an entirely relativistic, personally defined sense, encompassing a multiplicity of outlooks which implies that one cannot characterize human behavior in terms of patterns. And yet, when you explore individual attitudes in scientific terms these nonetheless tend to cluster around distinct view-points and behavior, something that has been statistically validated by many studies in social psychology. (Conservative vs Liberal morality forms a distinct dichotomy in sexual attitudes, something that is present across across cultures  i.e. it is a global human tendency.) 

In western societies in particular, many people often fail to realize how much their views are (often quite surreptitiously) shaped by the prevailing culture. Karl Marx refers to this as 'false consciousness': this belief that you have formed your own unique set of values without actually seeing how the larger society has shaped such thinking, often resulting in an outlook that is unwittingly conformist.

As someone who studies social psychology I am interested in such trends, not just individual variation. Indeed, if I were to take the position that people can't be looked at in terms of groups, there would be litle worth in the work I do, and no merit in the studies I have read which demonstrate distinct homogeneity amongst certain cohorts.

Which is not to deny there is considerable variance within and across groups; to form a deeper understanding of human behavior you do need to look at this as well. Just not my focus in this instance; I am interested in trends, group behavior, perceptions of other groups and separating fact from fiction, myth from reality.

So perhaps my question which might have been better placed in quotation marks (kind of like an essay question to prompt discussion, especially as it was contentiously phrased), because in-point-of-fact I was exploring a perception of FSUW which I have ascertained through certain discussions here, in the media, and in various publications both fictional and non fiction.

[Misha]

As someone who studies social psychology I am interested in such trends, not just individual variations;

Things change. The sexual mores of a 50-year-old Russian woman will be very different from that of the 18 year-old who grew up in Russia's own sexual revolution after the collapse of the Soviet Union. However, even then, I would say that the the sexual morality of the 60-year-old Russian woman would not be as prurient at the woman of the same age in the Canada for example (having a lover while married was less frowned upon socially even in Soviet times).

[ScottinCrimea]

Yes, Andrew, perceptions of morality is a completely separate topic and it's good that you clarified.  Of course perceptions themselves are highly individualistic as well depending on one's own experiences and attitudes.  I think it would take a much larger cross section than you can find in this forum to arrive at any valid. Now if you're just looking for our opinions, we can have a fun time with it, but I don't see us as a well balanced group. (take that as you will.  )

[Andrew James]

Yes, Andrew, perceptions of morality is a completely separate topic and it's good that you clarified.  Of course perceptions themselves are highly individualistic as well depending on one's own experiences and attitudes.  I think it would take a much larger cross section than you can find in this forum to arrive at any valid. Now if you're just looking for our opinions, we can have a fun time with it, but I don't see us as a well balanced group. (take that as you will.  )

Quite true. We are far from a random sample!

One of the more interesting sources of information (with the pretense of greater objectivity, though its very title suggests a western bias) is "Demokratizatsiya" aka The International Journal of Post Soviet Democratization.  Mostly about politics but often throws in social articles as well. An off topic example is a controversial characterization of post soviet Russia as a Borderline Personality (i.e. BPD in clinical terms). Any one interested in reading further see:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3996/is_200804/ai_n27899293?tag=content;col1

[Shadow]

The set of morals that you refer to are quite hard to find in reality.

Faithfullness : It is reported to be frowned upon having a lover while married for women but men are expected to be unfaithful...with single women only ?

Sex : Presumed to be less promiscuous, most men will at least feel an orange flag if during their first trip they have had no sex.

Family values: The strong family ties do allow them to travel halfway across the world out of reach of their direct family to start life with a relative stranger.

[Kuna]

Andrew,

It all depends on the individuals and anyone trying to promote "averages" is fibbing, or clueless!

My wife has several friends she is still in daily contact with.  Most are normal, average girls just trying to get by.  They work hard, take holidays, date, socialise with their friends, etc... it's all very normal - except for 2 girls.

One is late twenties, very promiscuous, single mother - and to my wife's exasperation, newly married last weekend.  Her reason for marriage?  For convenience...  "life alone is too hard".  She admits she doesn't love the guy she married but he has been chasing her for ages - and apparently she recently decided she'd take up the offer and see how it goes.     Whilst this guy has been chasing her she's been getting up to all sorts of shenanigans. One assumes the new husband doesn't know!

The other "unusual girl" is 30 or 31, single, very close to her family and VERY attractive. Why is she unusual? Apparently she has only ever had one boyfriend and whilst that lasted for 6 years they split up over a year ago.  She hasn't dated since as she prefers staying home and spending time with family.  She doesn't trust strangers therefore it's hard to meet someone new.

These girls couldn't be more different than each other!

If you're specifically looking to FSU for a less promiscuous girl you're probably going to be disappointed.  I wouldn't judge women on that criteria, but rather you should judge her on how she acts and reacts to you... your level of confidence that it's "real" and the mutual desire to make a marriage work.

All the best.

[Caddydaddy]

Interesting abstract, thank you Andrew.
As I did some research with help of internet and google earth about the town where my favorite Lady is living, I concluded, doesn't look that bad. This lead me to the question for her, if she truly is considering a change of her living place and she told me:
It may look good for a visitor, but she knows this living from "inner". The biggest problem seems they have no "confidence in tomorrow day", all can change in unexpected directions, economically as well as socially. So I think a lot of people there are in a "nothing to loose and nothing to gain" situation, in a kinda day-to-day life without visions, possibilities or perspectives for the better. In general I would say this is a good nutrient medium for bad morals. This may be one of the reasons, aside of the demographic ratio women to men, why so many RW are considering to look abroad, they want security for themselves and their family, of course, this is a very female natural characteristic trait.
Difficult to say to what extent this situation for the individual RW means regarding her own morals, maybe such a social environment can have some influence. On the other hand, reading the posts of GoodOlBoy, looks like the morals of some RM are beneath contempt.

[Andrew James]

Andrew,

It all depends on the individuals and anyone trying to promote "averages" is fibbing, or clueless!

My wife has several friends she is still in daily contact with.  Most are normal, average girls just trying to get by.  They work hard, take holidays, date, socialise with their friends, etc... it's all very normal - except for 2 girls.

One is late twenties, very promiscuous, single mother - and to my wife's exasperation, newly married last weekend.  Her reason for marriage?  For convenience...  "life alone is too hard".  She admits she doesn't love the guy she married but he has been chasing her for ages - and apparently she recently decided she'd take up the offer and see how it goes.     Whilst this guy has been chasing her she's been getting up to all sorts of shenanigans. One assumes the new husband doesn't know!

The other "unusual girl" is 30 or 31, single, very close to her family and VERY attractive. Why is she unusual? Apparently she has only ever had one boyfriend and whilst that lasted for 6 years they split up over a year ago.  She hasn't dated since as she prefers staying home and spending time with family.  She doesn't trust strangers therefore it's hard to meet someone new.

These girls couldn't be more different than each other!

If you're specifically looking to FSU for a less promiscuous girl you're probably going to be disappointed.  I wouldn't judge women on that criteria, but rather you should judge her on how she acts and reacts to you... your level of confidence that it's "real" and the mutual desire to make a marriage work.

All the best.

Kuna:

Thanks for the anecdotes. Real life examples are informative, especially as people's attitudes and perceptions (of other cultures, of their own culture, of themselves) are often quite different from their behavior.

I guess I was wearing my heart on my sleeve when I mentioned wanting a girl with more traditional sexual morals too. Not that I would want to appear judgemental or preachy on that front. IMO social proscriptions of sexual morality - the kind we see in the current wave of evangelical Christianity or the kind I was referring to when discussing 'raunch culture' in the media - are often harmful because they take personal choice out of the equation and lead people to behave in ways which they are not comfortable with.

I also take your point about not forming an opinion about a woman on the basis of her morals alone, because a lot of others things come into play as well (i.e. where someone might be compatible with you on that level, they may be quite unsuitable in other respects: e.g. morally conservative, and yet cold and self-centered, something that was true of the last girl I was close to.)

I think it is an important to share the same 'world view' however (a term which perhaps better encompasses what I am talking about when I refer to 'values', 'morality' etc.) Psych literature actually suggests this is one of the highest predictors of success in a relationship and you meet many couples who can't make it work because they clash in this respect.

BC:

Just a response to you earlier reply: "Different? yes. Stronger? no".

I am wondering if you might be able to elaborate on some of those differences?

[Misha]

I guess I was wearing my heart on my sleeve when I mentioned wanting a girl with more traditional sexual morals too.

I believe that Shadow was right in that men want contradictory things: they want the hot babe who will overlook their less then perfect bodies; they want the virginal traditional woman, yet the women who get all the attention are those who show cleavage and have photos where they wear short skirts, they want traditional sexual morals, while expecting a woman to sleep with them the first week. The first step: be truly honest in what you are looking for, and don't say you want A when you are attracted to B.

[Andrew James]

I believe that Shadow was right in that men want contradictory things: they want the hot babe who will overlook their less then perfect bodies; they want the virginal traditional woman, yet the women who get all the attention are those who show cleavage and have photos where they wear short skirts, they want traditional sexual morals, while expecting a woman to sleep with them the first week. The first step: be truly honest in what you are looking for, and don't say you want A when you are attracted to B.

I wonder if this is true, that men (well, 'many' men) are attracted to women in this way? If we look at the popular media this is almost treated as a given. And in many a pub conversation, you are possibly seem as something less than manly if you don't go along with that.

A number of women present themselves in this fashion too, perhaps because they feel this is what is going to attract men. (I am referring to the short skirts, plunging necklines, sexual compliance with them, if not other men.)

I on the other hand find this something of a turn off, preferring a 'less is more' approach (i.e. a dress which 'hints' at what lies beneath is so much sexier than a short skirt where nothing much is left to the imagination). Always been curious how many other blokes share this approach. 

[Misha]

I wonder if this is true, that men (well, 'many' men) are attracted to women in this way?

Well, this could be ascertained in trip reports. From what I gather, typical scenario: man meets women, man meets hot woman who will sleep with him the first week, man proposes to that woman

Also, sites such as "Hot Russian Brides" emphasize something other than sexual chastity and traditional values

A number of women present themselves in this fashion too, perhaps because they feel this is what is going to attract men. (I am referring to the short skirts, plunging necklines, sexual compliance with them, if not other men.)

Well, this is what Elena of Elena's Models has to say in her Russian site zamuzh.com:

"Абсолютный лидер в борьбе за мужское внимание -  купальный костюм. Такие фото выглядят сексуально и в то же время достаточно пристойны. Если фигура позволяет - обязательно сделайте фото в купальнике!"

My translation: "The absolute leader in the fight for a man's attention - the bathing suit. Such photos appear sexual and at the same time sufficiently decent. If you figure permits it, you must absolutely take a photo in a bathing suit!"

I on the other hand find this something of a turn off, preferring a 'less is more' approach (i.e. a dress which 'hints' at what lies beneath is so much sexier than a short skirt where nothing much is left to the imagination). Always been curious how many other blokes share this approach. 

That is good! Again, one can find the right person when one knows how to look, the problem is when men are not reasonable in what they look for, as I noted.

[Lily]

My translation: "The absolute leader in the fight for a man's attention - the bathing suit. Such photos appear sexual and at the same time sufficiently decent. If you figure permits it, you must absolutely take a photo in a bathing suit!"

 

I would correct EM's text and say that a bikini photo is not to sexually excite, but merely to show what the man is going to get with this or that woman. Bathing suits should not be called revealing but honest, if it is about dating profiles, IMHO.

[SANDRO43]

I would correct EM's text and say that a bikini photo is not to sexually excite, but merely to show what the man is going to get with this or that woman. Bathing suits should not be called revealing but honest, if it is about dating profiles, IMHO.

Lily, I'd say it largely depends on the photo context, i.e. if taken on a beach during a vacation or in a photo studio.

A woman can be subtle, or very 'open', when showing "what the man is going to get" .

[Misha]

I would correct EM's text and say that a bikini photo is not to sexually excite, but merely to show what the man is going to get with this or that woman. Bathing suits should not be called revealing but honest, if it is about dating profiles, IMHO.

Ah, but men who are looking for traditional, modest wives, should be looking for other types of photos. I don't know, perhaps a woman cooking or her at church

[Argonaut]

Isn't that what the OP was Misha saying when he talked about being at a bar and admiting he is not big on all that t and a that and then getting called a prude or a homo, or priest or whatever. Then if he protests they say hey due, we were only kidding. Yer right!

[Misha]

Isn't that what the OP was Misha saying when he talked about being at a bar and admiting he is not big on all that t and a that and then getting called a prude or a homo, or priest or whatever. Then if he protests they say hey due, we were only kidding. Yer right!

Well, I have great respect for a man who says that he wants a very conservative (morally) woman, and that is what he seeks. It is possible to find such a woman in Russian, as it is possible to find such a woman in North  America. However, when you do find such a woman in Russia, IMHO it is not because Russian women are somehow more more moral or more traditional (i.e. the OP's title of this topic: "Do FSU women have stronger morals?"), rather because you had specific criteria and looked for women who fit that criteria.

[Misha]

The forum seems to be buggy today