Do FSU women have stronger morals?

[ScottinCrimea]

Misha,  Some may wrongly take this report as something of an indictment of the Russian people in general, rather than what it is meant to provide, which is strictly a statistical overview.  For those who are inclined to do so, I suggest looking at studies of sexual behavior in other countries.  I don't think one will find too much that is different.

[SANDRO43]

in many instances positivist approaches (like mine) aren't so helpful.

Glad you realise that. I expect you may have read a "philosopher" like Max Weber to understand why certain Western cultures are so obsessed with "tangible results" .

[Misha]

Misha,  Some may wrongly take this report as something of an indictment of the Russian people in general, rather than what it is meant to provide, which is strictly a statistical overview.  For those who are inclined to do so, I suggest looking at studies of sexual behavior in other countries.  I don't think one will find too much that is different.

I agree that you won't find that much different in other North American or European countries. That is my point. It is silly to go to Russia thinking that you will somehow find a nation of traditional women that somehow have stronger (sexual) morals.

[ScottinCrimea]

I agree that you won't find that much different in other North American or European countries. That is my point. It is silly to go to Russia thinking that you will somehow find a nation of traditional women that somehow have stronger (sexual) morals.

We agree.  Unfortunately, as silly as it is, there are far too many men who go to Russia for exactly that reason.  They inevitably return disappointed and proceed to condemn the country for not living up to their false expectations.

[Shadow]

I on the other hand find this something of a turn off, preferring a 'less is more' approach (i.e. a dress which 'hints' at what lies beneath is so much sexier than a short skirt where nothing much is left to the imagination). Always been curious how many other blokes share this approach. 

That always reminds me of a Benny Hill sketch were guys in a nudist camp overlook the naked girls walking around and get all exicted about a woman outside the fence correcting her stockings. 

It all depends on the correct setting and environment.

[WmGO]

After doing a bit of reading on the topic of FSU women (not only posts here, but a number of novels and films as well) one theme that continues to crop up and grab my attention is the supposed moral superiority of Russian women compared to their allegedly more promiscuous western sisters (that is when Russian women are not being marketed as sexually aggressive supermodels, something I have passed off as a function of agency marketing).

Which makes me wonder: is this a myth perpetuated in fiction...

Andrew:

I don't know where in the world you could have read such fiction, but yes, it is fiction.
Western women are probably just as promiscous as FSUW. WW possibly more so though as they have more opportunity. Many FSUW have little experience, not by choice but by social-historical circumstances (from there view, lack of decent men). But opportunity aside, adultry and being a mistress and having a "sponsor" are infinitely more common in FSU than the West, at least with regard to the U.S. So much so that adultry, being a mistress and having a sponsor is virtually considered normal there.

I think you should ask the same question (as in your subject header) but delete the topic of sexual mores. If so, then the answer would be a resounding No. The reason is that they are a product of their culture. Study the culture, the history and travel there extensively. Make friends there and discuss these questions. Then you will understand.

Just remember: caveat emptor.


   

[Ranetka]

My reply to the OP.
The attitudes to sex differs not so much between ages but between different social groups. i think it is the same in the west is not it? I can not beleive a church going middle class housewife would  have the same attitude as a trailer living single mum of 5. Just the same in Russia - different social groups have different morals. Unfortunately as a foregner OP would  not be able to understand what social group particular girl belongs to.

[Andrew James]

Andrew: I don't know where in the world you could have read such fiction, but yes, it is fiction.

Actually, the fictional sources (some of the stories from the generally well reviewed "The Wild East", "The Red Passport", "Leaving Katya" - the main titles than came up when I did a quite extensive search for narratives relating to FSU-Western cultural interaction in the post soviet era) are probably secondary in this respect.

Having given this more thought, I would place agency descriptions first, followed by a few posts from AM with RWs, as chief supporters of this notion. And this does seem to be a popular (mis?)conception, something ScottinCrimea states just a few posts back, suggesting it is coming from somewhere.

All of which supports your prudent suggestion of studying the culture and engaging with the people, rather than operating according to some grass is greener myth (if more traditional sexual mores are what one seek, and there are a number that seem to fall into this category - myself included.).

Western women are probably just as promiscous as FSUW. WW possibly more so though as they have more opportunity.

That is kind of what I was tapping into because I think this might form a component of this perception (i.e. someone thinking "these FSUW are going to be more innocent because they haven't been exposed to the sexual revolution to the same degree."). Mind you, morality and experience/opportunity are arguably separate things, hence what you were saying about rephrasing the opening question.

[Misha]

That is kind of what I was tapping into because I think this might form a component of this perception (i.e. someone thinking "these FSUW are going to be more innocent because they haven't been exposed to the sexual revolution to the same degree."

Russians went through their own sexual revolution after the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Andrew James]

My reply to the OP.
The attitudes to sex differs not so much between ages but between different social groups. i think it is the same in the west is not it? I can not beleive a church going middle class housewife would  have the same attitude as a trailer living single mum of 5. Just the same in Russia - different social groups have different morals.

I agree with you here Ranetka, that different segments of any society are likely to possess different moral attitudes. Research - and common sense - supports this idea.
Still some societies appear far more uniform in their attitudes, on the whole - something that has been addressed in more detail in other parts of this thread.)
And it seems there is a perception out there that the FSU may fit into the later category - this notion of a higher percentage of FSUW with more traditional morals when compared to WW.
[/quote]

Unfortunately as a foregner OP would  not be able to understand what social group particular girl belongs to.

I am not quite sure I understand this part of your post. Were you saying that, as someone who has not traveled or lived in the FSU, I would be less able to recognize more subtle differences within the culture - the various sub-cultures one becomes more aware of when they are a resident?

If that it was you meant it certainly makes sense, indicating that visiting the FSU and interacting with the people is arguably the best way of finding out about such things - something I am planning to do next year.

[BC]

Unfortunately as a foregner OP would  not be able to understand what social group particular girl belongs to.

I am not quite sure I understand this part of your post. Were you saying that, as someone who has not traveled or lived in the FSU, I would be less able to recognize more subtle differences within the culture - the various sub-cultures one becomes more aware of when they are a resident?

Overwhelming effect of a pretty face and tight bod.

[OlgaH]

In 1912  Stephen Graham expressed his general opinion about Russian women:

In Russia there are many such women. They flourish and perish, and flourish again like flowers upon the roadway of existence. They are the strength behind the Russian nation, the spirit of its beauty.
Strong women rear them: strong men look down upon them. They spring up slenderly; they work within the house; they toil upon the fields; they feed cows, rock cradles, chop wood, bake bread; they gather in the harvest; they pray many times a day; they go on long pilgrimages; they marry and bear strong children and again they pilgrimage and they die. During all their life they never forget God, they never sully themselves, they are never tempted by evil. Simply and tranquilly they live, their eyes full of light because their hearts are pure.

Because of them Russia is strong. Because of them the sun shines freshly and the birds sing. Because of their holiness men are allowed to be secular.

"Undiscovered Russia" Chapter XLIV. Holy Russia by Stephen Graham
http://vologda-oblast.ru/main.asp?LNG=ENG&V=403

Yes, it was his own observation. It was what he saw...

Study the culture, the history and travel there extensively. Make friends there and discuss these questions. Then you will understand.

I agree.

If you read the Russian classical literature, the Soviet literature and watch the Soviet and nowadays  movies you will see that the different types of Russian women with different morals have been existed independently from historical epochs... and at the same time in general the human morality  has always been depended on a historical epoch with its social system and ideas... 

When the "sexual revolution" took place in 1960s in US,  there was absolutely different system of moral values in Soviet Russia at that time...

Today the restoration of moral values and especially family values is included in the National Prerogative Projects by  the Russian Government, so in general the crisis of morality especially among young generation is the main subject the Russian Government cooperatively with Church pays its attention to.

But in individual cases... I think the members, especially who are married Russian women, can tell so much about it 

[Andrew James]

Russians went through their own sexual revolution after the fall of the Soviet Union.

It's such a fascinating process, looking at these dramatic changes over the last few decades in the FSU. (China is of course experiencing something similar as its economy modernizes.) Of particular interest to me is how much of the old ways have been retained.

Oh, and thanks for the reference material re. studies on sexual behavior in the FSU. (Certainly fleshes things out more, no pun intended!) I would be particularly interested in locating a comparative analysis between say the Russian Federation and the US.

[Misha]

Of particular interest to me is how much of the old ways have been retained.

Depends what you mean by "old ways." Keep in mind that close to decades have passed since the collapse of the Soviet Union (i.e. one full generation) and that the Soviet Union brought about revolutionary social changes as well over 70-odd years.

[Andrew James]

Olga. The post I have been waiting for! (I like the way you weave in literary references; Perhaps this particular image of RW has much deeper roots?)

Interesting reading about the current government involvement in this process too. (Sounds like a reaction against perceived 'western morality', and a vision of restoring a more 'traditional moral attitude' amongst the populous.) Do post links if you find any.

PS In my PM to you - something others might be interested in - I referred to Ingrid Bengis' "Metro Stop Dostoevski" as the most fascinating fictional account of FSU-meets-West I have come across. I also cited this as a source of myths regarding RW, although now I have gone back and reread it, I can see that the author is NOT one of the people responsible for perpetuating this myth of Russian women.

Actually it is a very complex portrait of all the misunderstandings that seem to exist in Russian-Western relationships in the post soviet era, all the more so because it manages to incorporate Dostoevski's ideas into the narrative. (e.g. 'Beauty will save the world', which acquires a semi-ironic quality in the novel, as it is a double-edged sword in the case of their love-story.)  Does anyone here care to read book reviews on the topic of RW-meets-WM?

[OlgaH]

Actually it is a very complex portrait of all the misunderstandings that seem to exist in Russian-Westerner relationships, all the more so because it manages to incorporate Dostoevski's ideas into the narrative. (e.g. 'Beauty will save the world', which acquires a semi-ironic quality in the novel, as it is a double-edged sword in the case of their love-story.) 

 

"Beauty is a terrible and awful thing! It is terrible because it has not been fathomed and never can be fathomed, for God sets us nothing but riddles. Here the boundaries meet and all contradictions exist side by side. Too many riddles weigh men down on earth. Beauty! I can't endure the thought that a man of lofty mind and heart begins with the ideal of the Madonna and ends with the ideal of Sodom. What's still more awful is that a man with the ideal of Sodom in his soul does not renounce the ideal of the Madonna, and his heart may be on fire with that ideal, genuinely on fire, just as in his days of youth and innocence. Yes, man is broad, too broad, indeed. I'd have him narrower... Believe me, that for the immense mass of mankind beauty is found in Sodom. Did you know that secret? The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there and the battlefield is the heart of man".

Fyodor Dostoyevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

[Misha]

The post I have been waiting for!

So you were waiting for a something written close to a century ago? I am sure I can dig up a centuries old quote about Australian women and we can see if it still holds 

[Andrew James]

Depends what you mean by "old ways." Keep in mind that close to decades have passed since the collapse of the Soviet Union (i.e. one full generation) and that the Soviet Union brought about revolutionary social changes as well over 70-odd years.

Well, those 'old ways' - i.e. sexual mores in Soviet Russia - are also something I would be interested to explore, so I don't really have a definition. (Though degrees of sexual conformity in Soviet Russia and the various changes that have taken place over that time, especially since the fall of communism, not to mention what Olga has just informed me about - Putin's desire to roll back such changes - would be good to focus on.)

Man, my brain is starting to hurt. I think I need to bring forward that trip to Russia.

[Makkin]

  Is it or was it not the main birth control factor and that being abortion?

  Don't get me wrong on this but how do we decide what is moral and what is not moral and how do you cross-culture all the many things involved?

Makkin

[Andrew James]

So you were waiting for a something written close to a century ago? I am sure I can dig up a centuries old quote about Australian women and we can see if it still holds 

You know, I have toyed with the idea of writing my own novel about the various misunderstandings that exist in discussions/friendships/relationships between RW and WM - though I don't think I would be up to it. If I did however, I might make you a character Misha (and probably Olga as well.)

[Misha]

Well, those 'old ways' - i.e. sexual mores in Soviet Russia - are also something I would be interested to explore, so I don't really have a definition. (Though degrees of sexual conformity in Soviet Russia and the various changes that have taken place over that time, especially since the fall of communism, not to mention what Olga has just informed me about - Putin's desire to roll back such changes - would be good to focus on.)

You have to decide what it is that interests you:

1. Fictionalized accounts romanticizing the feminine essence in Russia;
2. Politicians pontificating as to what they would like to see achieved in their country;
3. What real people actually do in their real lives.

I for one am more of an option 3 kind of guy.

[Andrew James]

"Beauty is a terrible and awful thing! It is terrible because it has not been fathomed and never can be fathomed, for God sets us nothing but riddles. Here the boundaries meet and all contradictions exist side by side. Too many riddles weigh men down on earth. Beauty! I can't endure the thought that a man of lofty mind and heart begins with the ideal of the Madonna and ends with the ideal of Sodom. What's still more awful is that a man with the ideal of Sodom in his soul does not renounce the ideal of the Madonna, and his heart may be on fire with that ideal, genuinely on fire, just as in his days of youth and innocence. Yes, man is broad, too broad, indeed. I'd have him narrower... Believe me, that for the immense mass of mankind beauty is found in Sodom. Did you know that secret? The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there and the battlefield is the heart of man".

Fyodor Dostoyevsky "The Brothers Karamazov"

Yeah, that whole take on beauty, especially in a Russian context - seems to be an invisible through-line in a number of stories I have read here: that sudden intoxication and all the hopes that come with that, and then the disappointment/devastation, and yet people keep on keeping on.

[Misha]

You know, I have toyed with the idea of writing my own novel about the various misunderstandings that exist in discussions/friendships/relationships between RW and WM - though I don't think I would be up to it. If I did however, I might make you a character Misha (and probably Olga as well.)

Are we talking about misunderstandings that exist in discussions/friendships/relationships between RW and WM or are we talking about sex?

Here are my observations: At the end of your third date, usually there will be sex (plus/minus one date). If there is none, there are two options: 1) she is not into you and is not attracted to you physically 2) she is more conservative (which I can respect). However, as a guy, it is important to know the difference between 1 and 2.

If you want to discuss misunderstandings, I am happy to discuss that as well. What precisely is it that interests you on the topic?

[Andrew James]

What precisely is it that interests you on the topic?

I prefer open-endendness, where one question can can generate a range of discussions relevant to a topic, as opposed to say, adversarial discussions, or stabs at other people's contributions, which of course have their place too, but can also close discussions off and end up in acrimony. Mind you I am doing that too now.

[OlgaH]

So you were waiting for a something written close to a century ago? I am sure I can dig up a centuries old quote about Australian women and we can see if it still holds 

Misha you missed the point  I have started with words by Stephen Graham in 1912 and finished with a problem that Russia faces today