Why does she need an escape plan if you're such a nice guy?

[Enot]

Again, not my idea, but it seems to be what you are suggesting.

No I am not suggesting this.  You are not interpreting my post properly.

[Enot]

I read this differently....

She is hoping to fall in love, she is not in love.

So she actually neither knows or loves him.

Yes, I agree.  I am only saying it is more important to know somone loves you than it is to know someone.

I've answerd your questions now answer mine.  Would you marry someone you know or someone that loves you?

[Misha]

If I understand you then yes, I am saying that it is more important to know someone loves you then just knowing someone.  Hoping for love is not a reason for marriage but many RW do this and I believe Gator agrees with this.

I am confused here. You say that knowing someone loves you is more important than knowing them. Then, you say that many RW marry hoping for love, presumably not telling the men they are going to marry them. So, man "knows" she loves him, but she might simply be "hoping" that she will love him. How does a man know for sure if a woman loves him or is merely telling him that she loves him hoping that she will love him some day given that he is not taking the time to know her? Do you bring a lie detector with you?

[Misha]

I've answerd your questions now answer mine.  Would you marry someone you know or someone that loves you?

I would only marry a woman that I know AND a woman that loves me, and that is what I did. I knew my wife loved me because of the time I spent with her. I would not have settled for one without the other.

[Enot]

I would only marry a woman that I know AND a woman that loves me, and that is what I did. I knew my wife loved me because of the time I spent with her. I would not have settled for one without the other.

So you answered your own question about how do you know if someone loves you.  Why did you ask in the first place?  Maybe to start some trouble as you have done in the past?

You didn't answer my question so I will re-phrase it.  What is more important for marriage.  Loving someone or knowing someone?

I can't believe you and Scott have as much experience as you claim and asking the questions that you do.  If it is true, which I find hard to believe, then you have wasted alot of time not getting to know Russian people and their culture.

Also, based on your posts, I would tend to not believe anythuing you say.   

[groovlstk]

Enot's correct in that there are many RW who marry with the hope of falling in love with their man. I dated several Russian and Ukrainian women who would have gladly accepted a marriage proposal from me. I knew they didn't love me (sorry, I can't believe someone can fall in love w/me if they can't speak my language and have spent only a few days w/me, regardless of what they said) but they trusted me, were attracted to me, and saw the possibility of a promising future.

My advice to guys in this situation would be either A) Insist on getting to know her better and insist on her getting to know you better before pulling the trigger, or B) Run Forrest Run!

This is a recipe for disaster, I dated many divorced RW who came here on K1s w/the same hopes and expectations, but without that genuine bond of love - note I said genuine bond of love, not hope or promise for love at some point in the future - getting through the first few years is extraordinarily difficult. Without the enduring commitment that comes with love there's not much to keep her with you other than financial dependence when things get difficult. More enterprising women who originally arrived with the best of intentions may at this point simply keep some skin in the game just to get a green card.

I'm sure there are some success stories that contradict what I just wrote, but think about women you dated in your life. After a few dates, if you really liked her, would you have been willing to marry her based on your gut feeling at the time that you might at some point fall in love with her? RW are no different in this regard than women anywhere else, to marry based on speculation so risky as to be downright foolish.

[Enot]

Thanks for the post Groovy.  I agree 100%.  It is important to try to know someone as best as possible before marriage.  I have found a new respect for you.

Take care and best wishes.

[ScottinCrimea]

Well I find this hard to believe, in fact I don't believe it.

Whether you believe it or not is really no concern to me.  Those who have spent more time here know.  Just to be fair, I checked out what you have told us of your experience to see on what authority you profess to be an expert on FSUW.

Up until last February when you first posted, you said that you had spent 2 years in the FSUW search.  Things do get a bit confusing after that.  You first write the following:

"Well I got to know 2 women very well.  The first one wanted to sign for a visa and so did I.  So I got the paperwork together and she changed her mind and never signed.  So we agreed to stop the relationship. "

Shortly after this you wrote:

 "I was married and divorced to a Russian woman."

Is this a third woman?  I'm assuming the two women that you knew well were the one that backed out and your wife, so who were you married to?

You now have a wife from Moldova who you have known for about a year and has been with you now for 3 months.

You never say how much time you have spent in the FSU but your profile lists 4-10.

So in summary, you have only been at this for two years with relatively few trips there.  You have only known two FSUW well.  You have only lived with one for 3 months. I'm sorry, but you have a long way to go before you can give expert opinions about FSUW and their culture.  For now, all you can offer is your opinion based on your relatively limited experience.  Have you noticed that the posters who are disagreeing with you are some of the ones with the most experience and that there doesn't seem to be anyone agreeing with you?

You're right and everyone else is wrong?

You are again showing the tendency you have shown in prior threads to try to find something someone writes that might suggest they agree with your point, carefully ignoring anything that says otherwise.  For example, you exclaim that at last someone (Gator) understands you, totally ignoring what he wrote in the very same thread:

"Enot, it confuses me how you can know if someone loves you if you do not know them.  Unless one is in their early 20s and never been married before, true love takes time for which there is no substitute."

You are also contradicting yourself.  To try to make your point you say:

"My point is, you never know anyone even though you think you do"

But remember earlier you wrote:

"Well I got to know 2 women very well."

So you're claiming to have done something that you said was impossible.

No one is disagreeing that some women come with the "hope" of love.  What doesn't make sense is your assertion that you can love someone and know they love with you without actually knnowing them.  The knowing them just has to come first or else it's only a "hope" of love for you as well. Your arguments just aren't making sense and you contradict your own arguments so it's small wonder that no one is agreeing with you on this point.

[BC]

Yes, I agree.  I am only saying it is more important to know somone loves you than it is to know someone.

I've answerd your questions now answer mine.  Would you marry someone you know or someone that loves you?

Enot,

In the literal sense, I agree with you:

I am only saying it is more important to know somone loves you than it is to know someone.

Sure it's nice that someone loves me.. but guess what... we were both only infatuated in each other, well after marriage.  Was that love?

No.

-and that's where I think most get quite confused.

Love begins when infatuation fades.. and that can take a while, even years, through good times and bad.  It will show when things are at it's worst, not it's best and has little or nothing to do with sex.

Think you can meet someone, date for a few weeks with a few rolls in the hay and that's love?.. forget it.  Wait until you are sick, tired, poor or need your butt wiped because you can't do it yourself.

Don't worry, you'll 'get it' one day

[Enot]

  Wait until you are sick, tired, poor or need your butt wiped because you can't do it yourself.

Don't worry, you'll 'get it' one day

He He He, already had it with my wife before we were married!

[Enot]

All I can say Scott is that you are not understanding my posts, and evidently posts of others, and twisting my words to meet your needs.

If you have spent the time you say you do in the FSU, then you would know certain things about Russian people/women/culture.  I believe you're not telling the truth because you act like a newbie to foreign relationships.

[BC]

He He He, already had it with my wife before we were married!

in that case change 'or' to 'and'.

[dispozo]

Yes, I agree.  I am only saying it is more important to know somone loves you than it is to know someone.

I've answerd your questions now answer mine.  Would you marry someone you know or someone that loves you?

I will say it is important for me to know she loves me for my good and bad parts.

I will also say it is important for me to know her good and the bad parts.

For me this is what builds the bonds and the love between us.

So for me I would only marry someone I know and love.

[Enot]

I will say it is important for me to know she loves me for my good and bad parts.

I will also say it is important for me to know her good and the bad parts.

For me this is what builds the bonds and the love between us.

So for me I would only marry someone I know and love.

But what is more important, knowing someone or knowing someone loves you?  Let me state it this way.  Would you marry someone you know without love?  Would you marry someone you love?  Yes or no please.

[dispozo]

But what is more important, knowing someone or knowing someone loves you?  Let me state it this way.  Would you marry someone you know without love?  Would you marry someone you love?  Yes or no please.

Your first question is not a yes or no question for me. They are equally important to me, sorry.
No.
Yes.

Do not know what to tell you, people are different.   

[ScottinCrimea]

All I can say Scott is that you are not understanding my posts, and evidently posts of others, and twisting my words to meet your needs.

If you have spent the time you say you do in the FSU, then you would know certain things about Russian people/women/culture.  I believe you're not telling the truth because you act like a newbie to foreign relationships.

So now you are calling me a liar?  It seems you have also called Misha a liar as well because you couldn't counter his arguments. I'll leave it to him to respond to that. Look at how you respond to losing an argument.  You resort to personal attacks and claim that I have twisted your words when I have provided EXACT quotes. You couldn't answer ANY of my points or questions, so you try to deflect.

Let me re-ask one simple question as a test of your integrity.  Were you ever married to a Russian woman as you claim?

There's another simple question that I don't see that you have answered.  Do you honestly believe that you can love someone who you don't know?  Yes or no please.

[Gator]

This sounds like a broken record (for those old enough to know the expression).


Misha and Dispozo,
You read my statement correctly.

Enot,
Do you now know your wife?  

[Enot]

So now you are calling me a liar?  It seems you have also called Misha a liar as well because you couldn't counter his arguments. I'll leave it to him to respond to that. Look at how you respond to losing an argument.  You resort to personal attacks and claim that I have twisted your words when I have provided EXACT quotes. You couldn't answer ANY of my points or questions, so you try to deflect.

Let me re-ask one simple question as a test of your integrity.  Were you ever married to a Russian woman as you claim?

There's another simple question that I don't see that you have answered.  Do you honestly believe that you can love someone who you don't know?  Yes or no please.

Scott yes I was married to a Russain woman.

I'm not calling you a liar (twisting my words again).  I just find it hard to believe that with your so called experience, you make certain posts and ask certain questions.  

My question wasn't if a could love someone I don't know.  My question was what is more important in a marriage, love or knowing someone, and no one has answered it yet I have answered all questions but to me at least once.

I think you are the attacker.  I'm only trying to get a straight answer to a question know one seems to know the answer to.

[Enot]

This sounds like a broken record (for those old enough to know the expression).Enot,
Do you now know your wife?  

As well I as I can.  Do I know her completely, no.

[Gator]

BC,

You make excellent points about love and infatuation.  

I recall the term limerence, coined in the psychology field to define that initial state of "cognitive obsession."  

Limerence could grow over time into loving attachment, i. e. bonded couples who "...tend to emphasize compatibility of interests, mutual preferences in leisure activities, ability to work together, and in some cases a degree of relative contentment."  Bonded couples tend to be referred to as "old marrieds" whose "interactions are typically both stable and mutually gratifying."  

There is a huge difference between limerence and loving attachment, the latter being lasting and enduring.  

The psychologist who coined the term reports that "the bulk of relationships... are those between a limerent person and a nonlimerent other...These bonds are characterized by unequal reciprocation."  My own feeling is that there are indeed many ways to reciprocate in a relationship, and rarely are they equal across the board.  As an example, one person tends to be more of a giver than the other.  Somehow they balance each other.

Source:   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

[ScottinCrimea]

Scott yes I was married to a Russain woman.

I'm not calling you a liar (twisting my words again).  I just find it hard to believe that with your so called experience, you make certain posts and ask certain questions.  

My question wasn't if a could love someone I don't know.  My question was what is more important in a marriage, love or knowing someone, and no one has answered it yet I have answered all questions but to me at least once.

I think you are the attacker.  I'm only trying to get a straight answer to a question know one seems to know the answer to.

You're not calling me a liar and I am twisting your words????  

Here is EXACTLY what you wrote:

  I believe you're not telling the truth because you act like a newbie to foreign relationships.

Isn't the definition of a liar someone who doesn't tell the truth?  You say you believe I am lying. An apology would have been more appropriate than a denial of the obvious or changing to the slightly less insulting accusation of "so-called" experience.

Your question has be answered repeatedly.  Knowing someone is more important because you CAN'T have love without knowing someone.  We have all agreed that ONLY knowing someone isn't enough to build a marriage on, but the KNOWING has to come first and therefore it is more important.  What else could you say, "I love you so I want to get to know you."?

I have attacked your ideas but never you personally.  You were the one who stooped to that level, both with me and with Misha.

Now regarding your answer to my question, you were at this for two years.  During that time you had a relationship with a Russian woman but never completed the paperwork and have been in a relationship with your now wife for over a year.  You only mentioned having known two FSUW. Something isn't adding up.

[Misha]

I can't believe you and Scott have as much experience as you claim and asking the questions that you do.  If it is true, which I find hard to believe, then you have wasted alot of time not getting to know Russian people and their culture.

Let's see, I speak Russian fluently, spent several years in Russia over the last decade or so, and I am accused of having "wasted a lot of time not getting to know Russian people and their culture"? Tell me, do you speak Russian? How much time have you lived in Russia?

I asked you a simple question, and you are unable to answer. Here it is again: how can you love a woman that you do not know? How can a woman who does not know you love you? My answer is simple: there is no love without knowledge. Infatuation yes, lust of course, love no.

Also, based on your posts, I would tend to not believe anythuing you say.   

Don't believe me, I don't care. 

[Turboguy]

Personally I have heard of the law of gravity but I never heard anyone talking about the law of love.  Whatever we believe such as can you fall in love with someone you don't know is just an opinion.  I am sure some great minds have tried to understand love but whatever they think someone will come along with a totally different theory and there are no real answers.

Can you love someone you don't know.  My own personal opinion is we never really know the person we love or anyone for that matter.  Everyone has a secret side than is hard to discern.   You can be married to someone for 50 years and there will be things you don't know.

I have seen people who loved their dog or cat more than their mate.  Are you telling me they KNOW their dog or cat.

Does love even exist?  Could it really be a situation that starts with lust and desire and over time changes to mutual codependency and familiarity.  I am not suggesting that as a fact or even an opinion, just a thought. 

A theory I heard a long time ago that was an interesting enough thought that it stayed in my mind for many a decade was about who we fall in love with.   The theory was that we fall in love with someone who fits our ideas of the type of person we think we would love.  One of the questions that could raise is do we really fall in love with a person or with the picture of that person in our mind, with the idea of that person for example?

Are most people who marry in love with the person they marry (assuming there is such a thing as love)?   Personally I would say no.  That to is not a fact, perhaps an opinion, perhaps a thought.  I have heard too many say they were marrying their mate because they were good husband or wife material to think that is not a factor.  Some want to get married and go with their best available choice.   Some think they are in love but really are in lust.  I find it hard to believe that if most were really truly in love when they marry we would have the divorce rate and infidelity we have.

Continuing along those lines it seems logical to me that many of us go to the FSU because the women we can meet are better marriage material than we can find here.  The pretty faces and hot bodies we find there stir up our hormones and we think we are in love but is it love or lust/desire?  Personally I think for many of us the FSU women have so many other good qualities that if there is such a thing as love we have a better chance of feeling it.  For the one week wonders who think they are head over heals in love I think not.  I guess the question of if you can love someone you don't know can come into play with someone you have spent 5 days with.   Despite the "love at first sight" possibility I think loving someone at first sight or in 5 days is more lust and fantasy.  I think anytime someone is in love at first site or first one week wonder trip they are projecting things to that person that may or may not be there.   If those quality's really are there it works out, otherwise disillusionment sets in.  Love at first site is a crap shoot.

[dispozo]

I asked my fiancee your questions and here is her answer....

Would you marry someone you know without love? No.

Would you marry someone you love? That whom I well know and I love and the one who well knows and loves me - yes.

Do you need to know him to love him? When we have met and the more I learned about you, the more I understood, that I fall in love with you. When I have met you, I knew nothing about you, I wished to know about you more and more. The more I learned about you as about the person: timid, sentimental, clever, kind, betraid, careful, fair, cheerful the more I understood, the more I love you.

Can you love him without knowing him? No. How can I love the person about whom I know nothing.....??

I gave her the questions and asked her to answer honestly. I said nothing more, I received the answers I expected.

[Misha]

I have seen people who loved their dog or cat more than their mate.  Are you telling me they KNOW their dog or cat.

Yes, they know their cat and their dog. Maybe they don't know what they are thinking, but they know the quirks of their dog and their cat, the odd habits they like, the place in the sun where the cat likes to sleep during the day, they know the dog's favorite chew toy, etc... They know and value the time they spent together. The "love" of the dog owner is founded on the years spent on walks with the dog and the memories of the time spent together. They probably wanted to get rid of the little mutt at first when it was peeing all over the place and chewing every good shoe in the house, but they grew to love it over months and years.

However, it is still important for a dog owner to "know" their dog. They should know the temperament of the dog breed they will buy. When they go pick a puppy or kitten they should watch it carefully to understand its behavior. In other words, they should spend time to "know" the animal they will get.

Also, not all humans and pets will be compatible. Take an alley cat that was born outside and lived its life outdoors, it will be close to impossible for it to adjust to life as a house cat as it will panic when it is inside. Likewise, if you take a pit bull that was taught by its previous owners to attack and kill, you don't want to take it home and give it immediately to your two year old child as a pet and figure that both will love each other automatically.

In other words Turbo, you should not be picking pets at random without getting to know them and figuring out whether you are compatible, any more than marrying strangers where you do not even share a common culture in the hopes that you will grow to love each other.

Does love even exist?  Could it really be a situation that starts with lust and desire and over time changes to mutual codependency and familiarity.  I am not suggesting that as a fact or even an opinion, just a thought. 

Turbo, why are you not with your first wife again? Why are you not living a blissful life of codependency and familiarity with her?

Are most people who marry in love with the person they marry (assuming there is such a thing as love)?   Personally I would say no. 

The question, Turbo, is whether when the infatuation wears off, you will be able to tolerate the negative. Do you share enough in common to enjoy each others company? Do you have a common vision? Common goals? Are you compatible partners? Again, if you do not take the time to know your partner, you will not know any of this. Any idiot can fall in love/lust, but the man/woman who is thinking will ask: can I truly spend a lifetime with this person once the infatuation wears off the grind of daily life sets in?