Kiev disaster - Sept. 4-Sept. 15, 2008

[Ade]

Some of us are more adventurous, if that is the correct word.  And I think such an adventurous spirit is almost a necessity to navigate the RW waters.

Okay, I have to shake my head and wonder if you actually read those first few paragraphs of Bill's post?

To me he seems to have been at the very least foolhardy to fly halfway around the world to meet a woman like this! Unless you are one of those guys that thinks "adventurous" necessitates disengaging your brain and unnecessarily wasting time and effort on false hopes?

Yes, the posts here demonstrate exactly why there is a good need for the Trip Report section that allows for no posts except from the person writing the Trip Report.

Last time I checked this was a discussion forum not a monologue forum. People know that their reports are open for critique and if they have a problem with that they should not post.

[msmoby_ru]

Yes, the posts here demonstrate exactly why there is a good need for the Trip Report section that allows for no posts except from the person writing the Trip Report.

Pike, YES.. there should be some courtesy afforded to newbies.  Those posting what many believe to be "fairy stories" or troll-like" TRs deserve all that comes their way....

[Ade]

Pike, YES.. there should be some courtesy afforded to newbies.  Those posting what many believe to be "fairy stories" or troll-like" TRs deserve all that comes their way....

Courtesy, yes, but not to the detriment of common sense; far too many "feel good" posts are written in light of plain stupidity in my opinion.

Anyway, this guy is not exactly a newbie when he admits to "many months of reading the forums, studying, learning from the mistakes and experiences of others". He didn't learn very well it seems.

[Turboguy]

Personally I found his TR to be interesting and the kind of thing that could really help some avoid the same mistakes.   I hope he finishes his story. 

I think everyone on early trips can easily make mistakes and sometimes we have to learn by doing no matter how much we read.   I have often been accused of being too supportive, however it seems to me that he is aware of his mistakes.  His mistakes are no more than some of the mistakes I made on some of my trips, probably less.  Pointing out someones mistakes can be good in that it might help a newbie understand some things that he might not otherwise.  I do think this should be done constructively and in a way that does not scare off the poster and I am not accusing anyone of anything in saying that.

I will agree with Gator grammatically.  Shorter paragraphs would be a big plus however despite the long paragraphs it was excellently written and easy to read and most enjoyable. 

[bill12920]

If you went by metro, your appartment was not in a suburb but near center of Kiev (10 minutes). The only station I can see is dorogozuchny (not sure of spelling). There is a big park near the metro station and a big TV transmission antenna near . You have been definitely scammed for the appartment rental... this place is very good to stay, close to everything and there are very good apartment near. My wife lives in one building close to the metro station and there is absolutely no security problem.... except perhaps your "girlfriend"

Yes, this is the place. Point taken, negotiate a cheaper rent next time. However, if you shop online for apts, most start at $80 and go up from there so I thought $60 was a decent price.

[bill12920]

Hi Bill,

Interesting report. 

My Moscow wife once locked me in her apartment, and I felt crazy thoughts (and I had a TV and phone and food).  Your situation would have made me feel as if I were buried alive.  My wife routinely locked her children that way too, so it could be a RW thing.

Maybe it was Tatyana's desire to feel needed and to take care of you.  At least she was punctual (to a RW, 30 minutes late is on time).

39-yo women are different from those around 30-yo.  Many are not highly motivated about the MOB venture, most are set in their ways, and some are indeed wacky.  They rarely receive the attention of younger studs such as yourself, typically having to consent to meet old goats like me.

What were your criteria for selecting Tatyana (e. g., no children, conversant in English, educated, etc.)?

This woman was definitely motivated. She hates it there and cannot wait to leave. So I'm surprised she couldn't 'act' nice for a while. Relieved too! Yes, she had no children and spoke English, along with very similar hobbies and interests listed in her profile and she looked stunning in pictures

[bill12920]

Hi Bill,

Sorry to have to tell you this pal but you have violated some of the “Ten Commandments” prominently spelled out on this very website.

First of all, do NOT under any circumstances travel 7000 miles just to meet only one woman, no matter how attractive she looks on the pictures she sent you or how much you may have hit it off in your exchange of letters. Chances are (better than 90% IMHO) that either of you will not like the other (and the good ol' cultural differences may not even be to blamed). Then what do you do next stranded in an uncharted territory?
Always have a plan B. In your particular case this would have meant writing to at least 3 or 4 women living in the same area and probably securing a second fall back solution in the form of a marriage agency setting you up with a couple of other RWs during your stay there.

Second, this woman ripped you off BIG TIME with the apartment rent. Because this lodging was obviously rather seedy and not located in downtown Kiev, you probably should not have paid more than $20 a night, instead of the $60 you shelled out without a second thought  (I have been to the FSU many times and to Kiev once).
In whose pocket do you think the difference has gone?
Let me remind you that $660 is over twice the average MONTHLY salary in Ukraine. Whereas you have wasted your time and money on this trip she has probably made the most money in the least time in her whole life out of you while giving you a heck of a time.

On the other hand, if you are 41 (and not a moronic foul-breathed SHREK look-alike) why the heck did you go for an average looking 39-year-old RW? This is insane my friend. Is there a problem of self-confidence with you or something? If I were to spend thousands of dollars as well as 10 days of my precious time, I would want to make it really BIG and not just the run-of-the-mill experience I could probably get even in the US by spending the same amount of money.

My final piece of advice: don’t waste your time writing to and fro for months. The volume of correspondence you will have exchanged will have very little to do with whether you will hit it off or not.

I wish you the best of luck in your next endeavor (provided you are not yet completely jaded with the whole FSU experience).

Point taken. But look at any web sites offering apartments and they start at $80 and go up from there. So I thought $60 was a good deal. Next time, I'll be a hard negotiator. And you misunderstood. She was GORGEOUS in pictures. Only turned out to be average in real life. The pictures were not current or were doctored.

[bill12920]

Everyone stop worrying, there was a backup plan.....we'll get to that later.....

Day two:
I managed to arrive during the hottest week of the year in Kiev. I'm from Florida so I'm accustomed to hot weather, but Kiev was worse!! It was nearly 100 degrees every day and never a cloud in the sky. Those crazy people won't wear shorts either!! I had shorts for sleeping in and for wearing around the apartment so this day I didn't change into my jeans before going downstairs to meet Tatyana. She arrived and pointed to my shorts and said 'what is this? I don't like short pants, you cannot wear these'. No S&^t sweetheart, its only for around the apartment. She had no room to talk because she was wearing the exact same clothes from yesterday. We went upstairs to talk about what to do for the day. She notices that I had washed some clothes and she gets upset with me for that. She says I don't know how to use the washing machine because the controls are labelled in Russian and that I should have waited for her to help me. How difficult is it to press some buttons until the thing comes on? I thought a woman would be happy with a man who cleans up after himself and does his own laundry?! She said again that I don't need her. I told her we are on vacation and are supposed to be having fun, that I didn't come to Kiev to make her wash my laundry! I asked her if we can go to the zoo today and she said its not very good so we won't go there. I get dressed into my hot jeans for the trip out into the 100 degree weather. I take a water bottle from the fridge. She tells me this bottle is too big to bring, we can buy a smaller one later and we leave the apartment.

After walking to the metro station, I go to a kiosk to buy the smaller bottle of water but Tatyana tells me we should wait and buy it later. I tell her I'm thirsty now and I buy the water. We hop on a bus to God knows where and while riding, she tells me that I'm drinking too much water and it isn't normal to drink water all day long. Excuse me, but I'm also sweating profusely all day long in my jeans and boots, riding around in a hot, non air conditioned bus, sitting in gridlocked traffic, no venteilation, walking 10 miles under the blazing sun, etc. I tell her it is normal to drink a lot of water in my country. There wasn't a seat for me on the bus so I'm standing near the driver who happens to be a fairly attractive woman in her late 30's. She is wearing a small, loose fitting summer dress seemingly without undergarments.  I've got a direct line of sight toward her big boobs which are bouncing all over the place, mesmerizingly, as the bus rambles along. I'm thinking I want to be with the bus driver instead of Tatyana! Hmmm, should I start talking to the driver in English to see if she understands? About that time, we arrive at a store called 'Metro' which is apparently a membership warehouse similar to Sam's Club in the USA. I am surprised to see the car park outside full of private cars - and quite a few expensive cars too. Capitalism is alive and thriving here.

It was fun to shop in 'Metro' and see everything they have, to see the setup of the store, etc. Actually I was surprised to see just how similar it was to Sam's Club and how much good stuff they had for sale in there!  Tanya wanted to buy some toilet paper and selected a bulk quantity of rough Ukrainian paper. It was brown and looked like sandpaper! I offered to buy a package of the soft, white kind but she declined, she wanted the sandpaper. She said it doesn't make sense to spend so much money on something you just throw away. Well, I have to give her high marks for frugality. She also needed some sweat pants for winter and she took me into the tiny dressing room to help her try on all of the pants. That was a strange twist. Was this ice queen starting to thaw? She finally found a pair of pants she liked and they were only about $15 so I said we should get them. Then we went to look at the food. She asked if I liked caviar and I said I hadn't ever tried it. She was shocked when I told her that the prices start around $100 in my country. Then I saw the cans and what she was talking about was actually salmon eggs - like Walmart sells for fishing bait, not the little black sturgeon eggs I had been thinking of. The salmon eggs weren't expensive so we got a can along with some bread and butter, and a few fruits. At the checkout, Tatyana got into an argument with the cashier over the price of the pears. The cashier insisted the price was right and Tatyana insisted it was wrong. Good lord man, what are we talking about here? $4 vs. $3? Just get the damn things, we are not poor. But Tatyana told them to keep the pears and we paid for the other goods and left (disappointed because I really wanted to eat one of those pears!). As we were walking away, Tanya was angry again and told me this was yet another example of bad Ukrainian people; That the woman was trying to charge us too much and pocket the difference herself. I had my doubts. We went to a Ukranian restaurant inside of the store and she made me try some buckwheat among other Ukranian foods. I liked it all.

While we were eating, a person of African descent walked by outside and Tatyana was shocked. She said something like 'Oh my god! Look! A black person. We need to be careful, they're not good, you know?'. I said don't worry, nothing to be afraid of. Upon leaving, we had to walk about a mile from the store/restaurant, under the blazing mid-day sun to get to the other side of the road for the bus going toward home. Unfortunately we didn't get the bus driver with the big boobs again. Back at the apartment, the full force of the afternoon sun was burning through the western facing wall of windows. Since the place had just been repainted, there were no blinds or curtains installed yet. And no air conditioning. All we could do was open the windows and hope for a breeze but the temperature was still above 90 inside that place. I changed into my shorts and Tatyana sort of frowned but didn't say anything this time. She started preparing the caviar and buttered some bread and loaded it with the eggs and gave it to me. I took a bite and it was nasty! It tasted like little salty eyeballs popping open inside my mouth. I had to wash down every mouthful with a drink of water and Tatyana told me that I shouldn't drink water with food. (She had told me this many times before - every time we ate, in fact). She believed that one should wait about an hour after eating before drinking anything! The only way I could finish this caviar was with lots of water to wash it down! Not wanting to be rude, I ate the entire slice of bread and eggs even though it was disgusting. Then she made another slice for me. I had to tell her I couldn't eat any more and that I didn't like it. After she finished her portion, the second piece she had made for me was still sitting on the counter. Tanya pointed to it and pointed to the garbage can - motioning for me to toss it into the garbage. After I did that, she went off: "What is wrong with you? You would throw away this food when you see all the hungry dogs outside? You could feed this to the dogs but instead you waste it? You are a strange man!". I said Jesus Christ woman, you just told me to throw it into the garbage and I did exactly as you asked. Then you find some other reason to yell at me about it? I don't know your customs, I don't know that we are supposed to feed these dogs outside. How could I know this? Then she retrieved the bread from the garbage and took it downstairs. By this time, I'm starting to suspect that this woman is fatally flawed.

When Tanya returned from feeding the dogs, we started looking through the books and magazines I had brought for her. One of the items was as much a cute joke as anything, it was the Florida driver's manual. I thought she may like to brouse it and get some idea about our traffic signals, procedures, etc. She told me she cannot drive a car. I said maybe not now, but you can learn. She said no, she doesn't want to learn, she is scared of it. I said don't worry, it is fun! Besides, we don't have metro, we don't have busses, taxis, etc. A car is a necessity. She says you will do all the driving for us. Gosh, I had thought someone from there may be excited about such a new opportunity. Apparently this woman is non-expandable and has a very rigid and limited vision of her future.

As evening approached, we rode the metro back into the city for dinner. We went to a restaurant "Ukrainski" across from TGI Friday's. It was very similar (cafeteria style) to the first place she had taken me so many times already. After picking up our trays, the first stop was the drinks and salads counter and I took a glass of juice. Tanya started on me again about how I should not drink with food but should wait for at least 1 hour after eating. I ignored it and kept the drink on my tray. Then at the food counter, there was some nice looking roast beef so I motioned for the server to give me a slice of that. Tanya told me I should get the fish or chicken instead. I told her I've had fish/chicken for the last 5 meals so today I want some red meat. She says it is very bad for me and people should not eat red meat. The server was confused about whether to give it to me or not. I confirmed with him and Tanya told me No, I don't want you eating this! Allright, enough is enough; My patience just ran out. I said listen, for 41 years I've been drinking with every meal, eating red meat, never had any problem of any kind, never  visit a doctor, and look at me! I'm the absolute picture of good health and strength and fitness. So guess what? I'm going to continue to drink with my food and eat red meat. I asked the server to now give me TWO slices of the roast beast and he did. Tanya didn't speak to me all through the dinner. The metro ride back to the apartment was very quiet too. Then, oddly, she layed on top of me at the apartment and started kissing me. Made no sense after another full day of her bitchiness.

[Sculpto]

Hey Bill,
Man I feel for ya.. I was in Donetsk in summer with no AC.. yucko.. didn't suffer so much since summer in college in Kansas...

Anyway.. I am not at all suprised after all the crap this woman was putting you through she started kissing you.. in her own twisted and borderline psycho way she was trying to show you she cared about you.. in her mind.. it would seem.. her own view of herself as a woman is to serve a man.. but it seems to me her misery was so deep she would not be capable of doing that without making you crazy at the same time.

Some of the "eat this, don't drink that" stuff reminds me of women I encountered when I lived in Mexico.  They can't help it. they had all that pounded into their heads from the earliest age and anything that varies from it is "wrong".

I would also have the impression she may have at some point experienced some sort of abusive or at least domineering behavior from a man.  I see the signs... besides her obsession with the idea that Ukrainians are bad people... clearly something traumatic happened to her.

I am looking forward to the "dramatic" story of how you finally kick her to the curb.  Poor woman. 

[GoodOlBoy]

I have to agree with Sculpto. I have seen this behavior myself with a girl in Russia and it is kind of sad. She is definitely "damaged".

[groovlstk]

Funny thing, my wife and I know a UW/UM couple wherein the woman is exactly like this. She's the biggest nag and fussbudget that you could imagine, constantly picking at her husband's clothes, telling him what to do, micromanaging everything he does. We were at a restaurant one time and I felt so sorry for him that I kept ordering shots of tequila whenever his wife wasn't looking, hoping that it would help him get through the night. The husband pretty much ignored her, even while she was pulling his tie straight and picking at his shirt, only occasionally acknowledging her when she became pouty and changed his entree to something she thought was less spicy. After dinner I told my wife that I felt sorry as hell for the poor guy, but she told me there are lots of such couples in Russia and Ukraine, and that this guy specifically wanted such a wife because her constant attention was an ever-present reminder to him that she loved him. I thought back and it seemed sort of true because the guy never got upset and he didn't have that hang-dog look of a brow-beaten "yes, dear" husband, he pretty much ignored her.

If I were him, I'd have hung myself in a closet long ago, but to each his own.

[Sculpto]

Now that you mention it Groov I have a UW/UM couple as clients right now that are also like this.  They are from the 1991 immigration, she is from Odessa and he is from Kiev.  At first i thought he was just a wimpy guy but after a while I understood the dynamic and he obviously values the doting attention in some mysterious way.  I hope at some point to get him alone and discuss.  They know I was travelling to Moscow and why.

[Faux Pas]

bill,

Please do continue! I am finding your TP interesting and quite funny. You've a great knack for laying it out to be very entertaining.

[twrnut]

Yes Bill, Do keep your story going. Very entertaining. You seem to have a good attitude and sense of humor in your writings. So, even if this is the worst trip of your life, you should be able to look back and laugh at the experience. Sometimes, those are the most memorable trips.   

[I/O]

I can't wait to read what else she pulled during your time together 

Probably nothing if she caught him gazing at the bus drivers tits.

Goodness, this white knight is a lot more patient than I was on one trip way back when. I struck something very similar and she lasted all of about 48 seconds with me before she was told to scram.....long before we even left the airport precinct!! Frustration with wasting time on a PITA then turned (Just by sheer luck in meeting a few locals) into the best (Read, probably wildest) 3 week trip I've had anywhere in my life...........ah the memories.

Do tell Bill...............good report.

I/O

[Gator]

Bill,

I said in my first post that these 40-something women can be wacky, especially those who have never been married.

Even though Tatyana is from Kiev, she seems like a peasant or village girl or not very intelligent and extremely stubborn. 

-  Fearful of black people.

-  She cannot drive a car.

-  Health care superstitions not based on scientific fact, although this is almost universal among all RW, even the educated ones from Moscow. 

Your comment, "She had no room to talk because she was wearing the exact same clothes from yesterday" brought back memories of my 2002 trips.  Because of economics (some of these women are near the poverty threshold), RW would have a small wardrobe and would wear the same outfit for 2-4 days.   However, the clothing was fashionable and high quality.  They took great care too not to soil it.  I do not how this has changed in recent years.

BTW, I have used those mini-washing machines and I found them complicated, with the possibility of overcooking and shrinking clothes or operating in rinse cycle only.

Unlike you, I enjoyed the local, fresh caviar (with vodka or champagne).

Keep it coming.  Good vignettes of dating a FSUW, albeit a wacky one.

[felix8787]

Bill,
Your comment, "She had no room to talk because she was wearing the exact same clothes from yesterday" brought back memories of my 2002 trips.  Because of economics (some of these women are near the poverty threshold), RW would have a small wardrobe and would wear the same outfit for 2-4 days.  

Oh yeah, I noticed the same thing also when I went to keiv, she would wear one out fit and wear that same outfit a few days later, or wore the same tight dress 2 days in a row (damn she looked good) but it didn't bother me as long as she looked presentable in them and didn't look all ragged and dirty.

felix8787

[ScottinCrimea]

Great TR.  I'm thoroughly enjoying it, but this quote jumped out at me:

By this time, I'm starting to suspect that this woman is fatally flawed.

Please tell us you were kidding and actually had a few suspicions before this!

As far as the caviar, I prefer the black stuff.  The orange caviar just looked and smelled too much like what I used for fishing.  But over time, I grew to quite enjoy it and actually miss it.

[Kuna]

Mmmmmmm... caviar....  we couldn't get through a weekend breakfast without it.

Enjoying the TR very much.  Please continue.

If you've got any pics you can post that'd be great too.  Even though I know (exactly) some of the places you're talking about I still get a thrill looking at recent pics.

[ScottinCrimea]

Mmmmmmm... caviar....  we couldn't get through a weekend breakfast without it.

So it's replaced vegamite on your breakfast menu?  Actually, now that I mention it I'm curious as to how FSUW like it.  I don't want to hijack the thread, though, so perhaps someone from the land of beer barrel scrapings could keep it short or start a new thread.  (By the way, I don't mind the stuff on bread with some butter.)

[Pike]

Bill writes:  As evening approached, we rode the metro back into the city for dinner. We went to a restaurant "Ukrainski" across from TGI Friday's. It was very similar (cafeteria style) to the first place she had taken me so many times already.

- - - - - - - -

There are several "Puzata Hata" places in Kyiv.  There are also a couple of "Two Geese" places.  Both chains are cafeteria style.  So most likely that is where she took you the earlier days. 

These places are OK if you want something quick at a reasonable price.  But did you notice that the food that should have been hot or at least warm was always cool or even cold in these cafeterias?

[FredC]

Maybe she was just being difficult to see how far she could push him. I've read many profiles from ladies that say things to the effect that they want a masculine man.  In some twisted way they just want to see if the man will take control.

I have to agree,this has been a very enjoyable thread to read.

[UTRO]

Oh gosh man! You didn't have Real Caviar!! You have to buy it fresh from the Market. She takes you out to Cafeteria style restaurants. Do you think this is a woman who knows anything about Caviar?!? Mmmmm, Caviar and Tsar Mushrooms.... yummy!  :zappedhim:
Loving your TR Bill. Thanks!

[I/O]

So it's replaced vegamite on your breakfast menu?  Actually, now that I mention it I'm curious as to how FSUW like it. 

Axle grease. RW hate it. (It's been tested of quite a few )

I/O

[msmoby_ru]

Hi Bill,

Sorry to have to tell you this pal but you have violated some of the “Ten Commandments” prominently spelled out on this very website.

First of all, do NOT under any circumstances travel 7000 miles just to meet only one woman, no matter how attractive she looks on the pictures she sent you or how much you may have hit it off in your exchange of letters. Chances are (better than 90% IMHO) that either of you will not like the other (and the good ol' cultural differences may not even be to blamed). 

Whoa there...you haven't introduced yourself - or told us your "qualifications" to offer this "advice"  - which btw  IMHO is "incorrect"... Plenty of guys have made trips to visit just one lady - with a "little" more preparation than exchanging letters.. and are *still* happliy married !

Then what do you do next stranded in an uncharted territory?
Always have a plan B.

NO, No, no... this is *your* opinion.. some of us feel confident enough in our abilities to concentrate on one lady..  it's also about preparation..common sense.. Would you expect to find a wife by turning up in a city and announcing to your candidates " I'm here, may the best lady win" ..  OK, may be you'd pretend you're there just for her ! ..

 

On the other hand, if you are 41 (and not a moronic foul-breathed SHREK look-alike) why the heck did you go for an average looking 39-year-old RW? This is insane my friend.

and the OP should listen to the advice from this "sage" ? I think we can safely allow the OP to chose the lady / age range he desires and make his own mind up..what is "insane"

My final piece of advice: don’t waste your time writing to and fro for months. The volume of correspondence you will have exchanged will have very little to do with whether you will hit it off or not.

now you're making sense.. at last..

A plus..