Professional vs Blue Collar....Your Opinion

[Misha]

I am continually amazed at a number of men looking for a FSU wife without language skills at all. How much does her degree worth if she can't say a word 

Actually, one of the most successful women that I know, knew very little English when she married and moved to Canada. As vwrw rightfully states, many educated women had studied German or French, and the woman in question has studied German. She was a dentist and had graduated from a Moscow University with a Red Diploma. For many years, she stayed home, cooked and had children. Yet, at the same time, she learned and perfected her English and studied to prepare for the entry exams to enroll a program for foreign-born Dentist's to be accredited in Canada. She got into the program, finished it, and is now successfully working as a dentist in Canada, earning more than her husband and much more than most of the men on this forum  

[Gylden]

To all of you who think language is not important!
It is really charming to hear about individual experiences and successes, it really is, but IMO it is not the rule for people who cannot converse well, to be able to know each other with any certainty.
After some time, when everyone is able to communicate and it turns out that the couple are compatible/successful, it doesn't mean that the lack of ability to communicate was a good idea or helpful.

[greg2654]

Behavior is more important than language.  

Behavior is important but if she is planning on working in the US then language is #1.

[Misha]

To all of you who think language is not important!
It is really charming to hear about individual experiences and successes, it really is, but IMO it is not the rule for people who cannot converse well, to be able to know each other with any certainty.

You seem to be addressing my post, so I will reply. The point that I was trying to make is that even if a woman did not study English, it does not mean that she is intelligent, competent and capable. Also, knowing English is not an automatic guarantee to success, and if a woman knows no English neither does it mean that she is condemned to a life at home with no hope of any future career.

[Mars]

I am continually amazed at how dismissive many FSU citizens are about the importance of language.

Kudos to those that figure out going back to school is respected and accepted in our culture. My wife is struggling with this and it will be a battle for the other family groups.

Ecocks, I know you have had a lot of experience living in Ukraine, etc., so I am not dismissive of your words.

However, I am quite surprised by your words.

I have interacted with dozens of FSU people and never encountered any who were dismissive of importance of foreign languages, especially English.  Most were studying English and very desirous of becoming proficient.

Now you did say 'language' and not foreign languages, but I think you meant the latter.

I have tried to think why your experience was different than mine, and cannot come up with a good explanation.

Could you please elaborate on your sample group, etc.?  Or perhaps we are talking about two entirely different things.

[Mars]

Dismissiveness/contempt of FSU citizens toward English language becomes negligible when compared to dismissiveness of  American citizens toward any foreign language.

But you know quite well why this is true.

People who want to learn a foreign language are not at all superior to those who do not want to.

It has nothing at all to do with the lofty reasons often spouted such as: Want to increase my overall education, want to be a cultured person, want to understand how others think, etc.

It has mostly to do with: What is the reason or benefit of doing so?

For most American's the answer is there is no reason or no benefit whatsoever.
Of course this is because English is the language of the world, so an American can travel to virtually any country in the world and survive, because he/she will find someone who can speak English. 

Sure it can be educational and even fun (if you like it) to know some foreign language (I know a bit of 4 languages besides English), but it is of limited value to most Americans. 

This idea of limited value does not apply to persons living in non-English speaking countries, hence they quite naturally will show much more interest in studying a foreign language. 

And even people living in Great Britian will  show more interest in a foreign language than will Americans.  Not because they are superior to Americans, but simply because of their close proximity to non-English speaking countries they will likely find a use for these other languages in their business dealings, etc.

In short, it all has to do with usefulness, not laziness or lack of interest in education.

[Mars]

It is cool to have a wife for cleaning, cooking and humping with a red University diploma on a wall, isn't it. And more important she keeps silence 

I wouldn't like it; the silence part.  For me, intellectual discussions are most important reason for spending time with anyone.

[Mars]

I myself didn't consider education as a criteria, just language skills.

OK, so you find  a women with language  skills, or she obtains such skills.
Now, she might still have no education (relative to your level), so how is she going to talk with you about events and concepts in science, religion, philosophy, history, music, art, etc.?

[vwrw]

Mars, I agree with your reasoning completely.

[Gylden]

OK, so you find  a women with language  skills, or she obtains such skills.
Now, she might still have no education (relative to your level), so how is she going to talk with you about events and concepts in science, religion, philosophy, history, music, art, etc.?

Mars,
That is exactly the point, it enables you to discuss and find out!!

[Mars]

Mars,
That is exactly the point, it enables you to discuss and find out!!

Gylden,  I don't understand your necessity of showing a clue bat in your response.
Could you please comment on that?
Do you see anything at all in my writing in this tread that indicates an inability for me to understand?

Now, not to belabor and nitpic, but you did say:  "I myself didn't consider education as a criteria, just language skills."

But in your quoted words above, you are going to discuss to find out about education.  Doesn't this mean you really are, after all, going to consider education?

[Gylden]

Mars,
Sorry if you thought the bat was for you, I meant it for me, as I hadn't been clear about my statement.
About education, no I stand on my statement, it wasn't a priority, I meant that being able to talk to each other makes it easier to determine if there is any compatibility, concerning any subject. 

[Mars]

Another point  on foreign language skills.

Every so often someone posts along the lines of:

"The man searching for a wife in FSU should gain some  skills in Russian or  Ukrainian language.  If he expects her to learn English (or his language if not English), then he should also learn her language."

A high minded idea, but quite a waste of time for the man . . . unless he is planning to live in her country.   Sure it can be nice to converse with her relatives on visits, but if a man has a decent career, it is not a rational tradeoff to give up the chance to further his career by virtue of spending time learning a foreign language.

For most men on a good career trajectory, there is certainly not free time to do something such as learn a foreign language . . . strictly for the frivolous purpose of pursuing a woman!!  :-))

[Mars]

Mars,
Sorry if you thought the bat was for you, I meant it for me, as I hadn't been clear about my statement.
About education, no I stand on my statement, it wasn't a priority, I meant that being able to talk to each other makes it easier to determine if there is any compatibility, concerning any subject. 

Yes, your last statement is true and very powerful.

[elliott]

higher education is a requirement for every single job in Russia, be it a cleaning lady, a baby sitter, or a driver lol

That is very interesting.  Usually those jobs require zero education and only good personal references.

[Mars]

My wife knew maybe 5 words of English when I met her.  Were happily married and no issues.

Quite amazing!  So how, a priori, did you analyze the likelihood that you would be compatible, let alone happily married?

Not at all meaning to denigrate here . . . But then, maybe this is similar to marrying a person who is a deaf mute.  An interesting question now that I think about it. 

How do such relationships survive?  Let's assume the two parties really do love each other and that neither is in the relationship simply for financial or labor purposes?

[vwrw]

I believe there is quite a bit of validity to the hypothesis the OP presented that there is a good chance lower educated FSUW will be happier in USA than those higher educated, especially if bringing in some money early in the game is their goal.

I conducted a survey on the subject of what motivates immigrants to naturalize in America. One of interesting results was that those with least education (less than 6 years) and those with  most education (more than 17 years)  are more likely to be motivated by emotional attachment to America than those who are at the middle on the education's dimension.

However, for sufficiently young (definition left open to the circumstances) ladies educated in the professions who desire and are willing to go through the re-certification process, there can be immediate and long term happiness.  Immediate if they (like myself) love being involved in the education process, as well as the subsequent work phase.

So true!

[Mars]

Quote from: Aloe on Today at 10:39:31 AM
higher education is a requirement for every single job in Russia, be it a cleaning lady, a baby sitter, or a driver lol

That is very interesting.  Usually those jobs require zero education and only good personal references.

I think the answer lies in the state of the particular job market.  Supply and demand.  Where jobs are scarce relative to otherwise unemployed persons, the potential employer can demand qualifications that exceed any real necessity.

In a normal job market, employers are hesitant to hire overqualified persons because of fear such persons will become bored and leave.  But where jobs are scarce and expected to remain that way for the foreseeable future, such fears are not present.

[RussianWind]

The reason for this belief of mine is that when I was young, schools divided all fourth grade pupils into 2-3 equal groups - English , German, and French speaking groups.

It's not the reason. Children who attended English classes didn't speak English too. The situation is the same now except those who are able to send children to private schools where they have more lessons and less pupils in groups and sponsor their education and/or vacations abroad.

I bet if they stop dubbing original movies, more people will speak English like it is in neighbour countries.

[possum]

Quote from: Aloe on Today at 10:39:31 AM
higher education is a requirement for every single job in Russia, be it a cleaning lady, a baby sitter, or a driver lol


I think the answer lies in the state of the particular job market.  Supply and demand.  Where jobs are scarce relative to otherwise unemployed persons, the potential employer can demand qualifications that exceed any real necessity.

In a normal job market, employers are hesitant to hire overqualified persons because of fear such persons will become bored and leave.  But where jobs are scarce and expected to remain that way for the foreseeable future, such fears are not present.

Actually, it has more to do with the Russian Soviet mentality that says if someone lacks a university diploma, it is either because they're completely dumb or completely lazy..

[Faux Pas]

Gylden,  I don't understand your necessity of showing a clue bat in your response.
Could you please comment on that?
Do you see anything at all in my writing in this tread that indicates an inability for me to understand?

Now, not to belabor and nitpic, but you did say:  "I myself didn't consider education as a criteria, just language skills."

But in your quoted words above, you are going to discuss to find out about education.  Doesn't this mean you really are, after all, going to consider education?

Gylden can certainly speak for himself but, I believe he and I are seeing eye to on on this topic. I would like to clarify what I think you are asking from my POV.

For me, english speaking ability was the first qualifier for me for communication with any woman. Again, because of my own misgivings. A pleasant side-effect of that is that most FSUW with english ability were of higher education.

Once communication was established, then comes dialogue to find out if there was further interest from both her and I. I never immediately hurried right into compatibility life and wife qualifying. Me personally I would never attempt to have 3rd party discussions with a lady on such issues with whom I could not communicated directly. Communication has to be established first, then the discovery process to see if we interest and like each other. Later, much later do we discover if a personal relationship is in our future. Their education level or profession was never a factor.

I know some guys approach is to find the pretty picture, qualify from the profile and pursue "that woman". That wasn't my approach. For me there is no way I pursue a woman with whom I could not communicate with.

[Misha]

Actually, it has more to do with the Russian Soviet mentality that says if someone lacks a university diploma, it is either because they're completely dumb or completely lazy..

... or don't have enough money or connections to get a forged diploma 

[SMS60]

OK, so you find  a women with language  skills, or she obtains such skills.
Now, she might still have no education (relative to your level), so how is she going to talk with you about events and concepts in science, religion, philosophy, history, music, art, etc.?

This is the elitist view towards the peasants.

One thing education does not teach is "common sense".

[possum]

... or don't have enough money or connections to get a forged diploma 

Unfortunately, it's gettin' harder and harder to get a fake one..

[Faux Pas]

This is the elitist view towards the peasants.

One thing education does not teach is "common sense".

Very true. I have spent a career dealing with highly educated fools that couldn't pour piss from a boot.