Why do Russian women prefer Western men?

[Jack]

Jack.. I am sure the ladies who are signing up for the agency will tell you they prefer western men.. of course they do!  LOL..  cmon man.. Jack, we all know you pretty well.. could it be you have been duped by the GCG girls into believing they all prefer western men???? 

Hey Sculpto, hope all is well with you.

Sculpto as I tell clients, 99%, actually over 99%, of all the ladies we see walking Khershaytk, or Deribaska, Tverskya, Karl Marx, Nevesky Prospect are not listed with marriage agencies. How do I know this? It's a long story but to summerize it has to do with meeting many ladies we see in everyday life, running newspaper ads, as well passing out over 10,000 flyers for various clients.

So 99% of all these beauties we see everyday out and about walking are not listed with a marriage agency. Of course one has to expect that most the women from agencies are going tell me, you, and men seeking them through agencies, that they prefer western men. And although you know me pretty well Sculpto, it's not the agency/GCG girls who have duped me. I want, I encourage, our guys to meet as many ladies as they can who are NOT with agencies. And their are many ways of doing this.

When a great many of the ladies who are not with agencies who we talk to, who we pass out flyers to, who we talk to after replying to newspapers ads, who we meet at shopping malls or local markets or even disco's and clubs, they tell us that they would like to find a man who will be   .....    can you guess the number one request?    A good father?   A good provider,    Faithful?,....The number one thing we hear from Russian/Ukraine ladies 23 and over is,..... a man who is faithful.

Many Russian/Ukraine ladies of 19, 20, 21, 22 are very much into local men, not so much foreign men, but their are exceptions such as this young lady  i am Ukrainian. She was 20 and she decided she wanted a foreign man. Most 20 year old Russian/Ukraine ladies are thinking of 21 year old Russian/Ukraine men, not older foreign men.  Usually around the age of 23-24 these young Russian/Ukraine women realize that a great many Russian men have to have more than one woman at a time in his life and they don't want to deal with this as they consider a family.

Now I would like to say, and of course in my opinion only, that not all Russian/Ukraine men are bad. I have stated this many times.
I have met many good Russian/Ukraine husbands and fathers. But I think only about 35% of these men fall into this catagory.

Russian/Ukraine men are spoiled. They have so many beautiful women to choose from, and they usually do.

[Sculpto]

This is exactly the type of statement that makes me question your ability to report accurate opinions.  First, we did not do "saturation bombing of Hanoi."  Second, McCain flew ground-attack A-4 aircraft.

Yes, we did use B-52s around Hanoi and while the targets were intended to be small, B-52s are better at carpet than pinpoint bombing.  Nevertheless, a preponderance of attacks were carried out by low flying, precision bombing jets, hence the high number of captured pilots.

I have a friend who selected targets for bombing raids, and he has discussed with me the measures that the US took to minimize civilian casualties.

Also, if saturation bombing of Hanoi were indeed the objective, I can state that based on a personal trip I made to Hanoi, we missed!

 

Gator.. I do not want to get into a pissing match with you.. I respect the fact that you served in an unpopular and illegal war, maybe against your will.  

However...

for simple background of the political climate around the bombing and the strategic consequences
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,838673-1,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,910858,00.html

historical facts about the process of the bombing itself
http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Air_Power/Linebacker/AP41.htm

Gator should love this one    Jane Fonda herself!  
http://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JaneFondaBroadcast.html

very detailed information about the entire "Christmas Bombing"
http://www.vietnampathfinder.com/Vietnam_Tours-Vietnam_Travel-e-KnowingVietnam_947-B52_AIRSTRIKES_HANOI,1972.html

and finally a bit of play by play...
http://ce399.typepad.com/weblog/2005/12/christmas_from_.html

So "only" a few thousand civilians were killed Gator.  I guess you made your point that McCain had no part in the war crimes committed in VietNam and was merely carrying out orders.  Please note the sarcastic tone of my comment.

You know.. it is a real pity to me that issues like VietNam continue to haunt us.  This discussion reminded me of a man I met a few years ago who had been a machine gunner on a helicopter during the war.  He said he had killed so many people he completely lost track and after a while it became like a game.. he felt like he was God and could decide who would live and who would die...  After the war his memories haunted him so much.. and the feelings of guilt increased daily.. that eventually he had to go back to VietNam.  He eventually formed a group with other vets who now go to VietNam regularly, visit the villages and towns they attacked and often destroyed and make reparations to the people there.  Now, in my book, THAT describes a real American hero.  Not some political wank job that has exploited his POW status for his personal gain and was simply following orders when he was dropping bombs on who knows what.

It remains EVERY soldiers responsibility to disobey an illegal order.  McCain did not.  He voluntarily and willingly participated in a massive and illegal war crime and is not apologetic about it, but, rather portrays himself as a victim of the evil communist regime of VietNam.  McCain is a fraud and that is why he was not elected.. people saw right through his thin veneer of heroism and can see he is really nothing more than a paranoid old man

Anyway, how does this relate to whether or not FSU women prefer Western or Russian men?

[Sculpto]

Hey Sculpto, hope all is well with you.

Sculpto as I tell clients, 99%, actually over 99%, of all the ladies we see walking Khershaytk, or Deribaska, Tverskya, Karl Marx, Nevesky Prospect are not listed with marriage agencies. How do I know this? It's a long story but to summerize it has to do with meeting many ladies we see in everyday life, running newspaper ads, as well passing out over 10,000 flyers for various clients.

So 99% of all these beauties we see everyday out and about walking are not listed with a marriage agency. Of course one has to expect that most the women from agencies are going tell me, you, and men seeking them through agencies, that they prefer western men. And although you know me pretty well Sculpto, it's not the agency/GCG girls who have duped me. I want, I encourage, our guys to meet as many ladies as they can who are NOT with agencies. And their are many ways of doing this.

When a great many of the ladies who are not with agencies who we talk to, who we pass out flyers to, who we talk to after replying to newspapers ads, who we meet at shopping malls or local markets or even disco's and clubs, they tell us that they would like to find a man who will be   .....    can you guess the number one request?    A good father?   A good provider,    Faithful?,....The number one thing we hear from Russian/Ukraine ladies 23 and over is,..... a man who is faithful.

Many Russian/Ukraine ladies of 19, 20, 21, 22 are very much into local men, not so much foreign men, but their are exceptions such as this young lady  i am Ukrainian. She was 20 and she decided she wanted a foreign man. Most 20 year old Russian/Ukraine ladies are thinking of 21 year old Russian/Ukraine men, not older foreign men.  Usually around the age of 23-24 these young Russian/Ukraine women realize that a great many Russian men have to have more than one woman at a time in his life and they don't want to deal with this as they consider a family.

Now I would like to say, and of course in my opinion only, that not all Russian/Ukraine men are bad. I have stated this many times.
I have met many good Russian/Ukraine husbands and fathers. But I think only about 35% of these men fall into this catagory.

Russian/Ukraine men are spoiled. They have so many beautiful women to choose from, and they usually do.

Perfect answer Jack.. I think that should illuminate things in the proper way for most of us. 

[Ooooops]

And IMHO, a GREAT loss to the Russian society. Why? Because Russia invested a HUGE amount of money and resources to educate these women and now...they flee the regime that represses their ability to fairly work and be treated as an equal.

When education was free (well, paid by underpaying workers) then there was 3 year requirement - graduates had to go to work at place of country's choice to pay for their education.   After that they were free to chose their own place of work.

[Gator]

Anyway, how does this relate to whether or not FSU women prefer Western or Russian men?

My point is that you read something about Vietnam and either you can not comprehend it or you purposefully twisted/exaggerated/ignored salient facts to support a preconceived and biased viewpoint.  So when I read such a distorted statement, I saw no reason to take the time to read what you have to say about FSU women. 

Specifically, you stated "saturation bombing," and in contrast your quoted sources discuss "authorized targets" and a remarkably small number of civilian deaths. 

Why so many quoted sources when one would have sufficed?  Listing a large number of sources proves only that you did not read them yet thought it would somehow impress us.

The US fought that war with one hand behind our back.  I have returned to Vietnam and Laos in the past five years, and I assert that the good guys won vs. the corrupt regime we tried to keep in power.  While my sentiments may align with your thinking, I attempt to be objective and try to avoid shooting off my mouth.

Sculpto, you are probably capable of better.

[kievstar]

One thing if you get a chance to work in Kiev or another big Russian city and have some good friends who tend to be in university you have access to huge number of good girls in the 20 to 24 age bracket.  By having local friends it will help you with ladies.  Just like a lot of people meet women in America through friends or work.  I used to met a bunch of ladies at parties etc in Kiev in this age who never wanted a foreign men but were into me. However being 36-37 years old these girls are too young and immature for me so just became friends with them.  But for the guy who wants a very young good girl this is an easy way.  These girls I met in this age would never go to an agency as they felt that is for desperate young women who have no career and self esteem.  I never got into dating women under 27 years old in the agency so have no opinion on whether desperate or not. 

[Fashionista]

they flee the regime that represses their ability to fairly work and be treated as an equal.

If you dare speak up against Putin's regime, you are poisoned with plutonium or gunned down on the streets of Moscow for being a real journalist (not a puppet for the Kremlin).

Yep, anything to escape the political opression. 

[Sculpto]

My point is that you read something about Vietnam and either you can not comprehend it or you purposefully twisted/exaggerated/ignored salient facts to support a preconceived and biased viewpoint.  So when I read such a distorted statement, I saw no reason to take the time to read what you have to say about FSU women. 

Specifically, you stated "saturation bombing," and in contrast your quoted sources discuss "authorized targets" and a remarkably small number of civilian deaths. 

Why so many quoted sources when one would have sufficed?  Listing a large number of sources proves only that you did not read them yet thought it would somehow impress us.

The US fought that war with one hand behind our back.  I have returned to Vietnam and Laos in the past five years, and I assert that the good guys won vs. the corrupt regime we tried to keep in power.  While my sentiments may align with your thinking, I attempt to be objective and try to avoid shooting off my mouth.

Sculpto, you are probably capable of better.

Gator.. From my perspective there is nothing wrong with my comments.  The B-52s unleashed a reaign of terror over hanoi and managed to kill many civilians.  If they were trying not to is irrelevant.  The war machine decided to bomb and they bombed.  ANY civilian death is lamentable, but, in the case of VietNam there were so many civilian deaths over the entire period of the war there is no way to seperate the impact of one particular air campaign from the whole conflict.  Thus, my original statement stands.  McCain actively and willingly participated in the largest bombing campaign since WW2 which was ill advised at best and totally illegal at worst.

I posted numerous links simply because I did get caught up in refreshing my memory of the details, its beena long time since I got into a discussion about VietNam.  I thought others with little or no knowledge of the war might appreciate the information provided.

We fought a war in VietNam that we never should have been involved in the first place.  Have you forgotten about the Gulf of Tonkin?  If you make an honest analysis of the war, and its long term consequences, you have to recognize that VietNam was as much in war of liberation as it was a communist revolution.  VietNam suffered under the yoke of Chinese, Dutch and French and finally American domination for a very very long time.  And, why did we have to draw Laos and Cambdia into it?  Cambodia is still a mess.  Do you really think the KR would have ever achieved the level of military success leading to the genocide if the US had not involved Cambodia for our own shortsided purposes?  I know a LOT of Hmong people from Laos.  Many were resettled here in the Bay Area and especially out in the valley.  One Hmong guy was my employee for several years.. a great carpenter in fact.  We often got into discussions about jungle life and he told me about when he was a kid before the war living as a jungle dwelling hunter going after game with bow and arrow as was the custom of his people.  Why did we have to bring the Hmong into the war?  What good did it do anyone?

As I said before.  I respect the US soldiers who sacrificed everything in blind patriotism, or, a lack of will to refuse.  War sucks and it is terrible they had to suffer its consequences.  However, as a nation we allowed our leadership to take us down a road that was wrong and to this day there still hasn't been a real reconcilling of facts.  We just sort of swept it under the rug and now we have all agreed not to blame the troops for the mess in Iraq even though the troops could just as easily refuse to participate in another illegal war. 

Remember that Clash song I posted a while back.. "don't heed the call up" 

Anyway.. lets not argue about this.. if you want to respond thats fine but we don't have to do it.

[Mishenka]

Sculpto, you made a comment that the "more people are entering Russia than leaving" how do you account for the drop in population of over 3 million in the last few years? 
 The stats on legal immigration is accurate but do not account for the massive number of illegal ones who if accounted for would be multiplied by no less than 10 times these numbers, hence the reason we have a population of over 300 million in USA, 140 million in Russia.  By the way, there are as many Russians living in San Diego and San Francisco today as are counted in 2007 visas.
Mishenka

[kievstar]

More people are leaving Russia than entering it.  Also, population is getting older.  The only thing growing in Russia is the % of people and number who are not white.  But this is like most countires in Europe.  Getting older, less white, younger generation does not earn enough to support socialist programs in 10-15 years - which is fine with me. 

[Misha]

how do you account for the drop in population of over 3 million in the last few years? 

More people dying than babies being born = shrinking population. Russia's population shrank by 10 million or so people since the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Mishenka]

I account for it in a different way,

An estimated four million to 5.5 million Russian-speaking immigrants live across the United States. New York City, and its metropolitan area, accounts for 25 percent of the immigrants. California and Illinois have 16 percent each, followed by 10 percent in Pennsylvania, 8 percent in Massachusetts, 7 percent in Florida and 3 percent in the Washington D.C.-Maryland area, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

New York, Los Angeles and Chicago are the top three in numbers of Russians. And fourth? Try Americas Finest City, San Diego where 50,000 Russian immigrants reside. Following San Diego in numbers of Russian-Americans are San Francisco, Seattle, Detroit and Philadelphia.

San Diego is especially attractive for many of the same reasons, attracting a million other new residents over the last two decades. Its got sun, beautiful weather and attractive professional job opportunities. Its a big city attraction with a lot fewer hassles than the City of Angels or Big Apple.

 
Mishenka

[Misha]

I account for it in a different way,

An estimated four million to 5.5 million Russian-speaking immigrants live across the United States.

Not all Russian-speaking immigrants come from Russia and many of the Russian-speaking migrants arrived before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

[Sculpto]

The population statistics are pretty clear Mishenka.  Russia suffers from a low birth-death ratio, a certain steady amount of emigration plus a constant influx of migrants from former Soviet Republics.  I am quite sure when the RF Gov releases population and census figures they are not counting the millions of undocumented that actually live in the country.

By deflating the actual population of ethnic Russians still living in Russia it does serve a propoganda purpose of helping to keep people patriotic and wanting to stay at home.

I would also mention that in the area of Moscow I stayed there were a lot of ethnicities besides Russians.  I was rather fascinated by the different peoples and with "A" we got into trying to guess what langauge people were speaking and of course what country they had illegally entered into Russia from.

I think we identified Azeri, Turkmen, Tajik, and of course Georgians and Armenians.. But, we did hear other languages that neither one of us had any clue about nor could we easily identify people by their actual looks.  I think I even saw at least one Eskimo.  

[Sculpto]

Not all Russian-speaking immigrants come from Russia and many of the Russian-speaking migrants arrived before the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Not only that but how many of them are Jewish, or at least claimed some % of Jewish blood so they could escape from the USSR?

[Lily]

New York, Los Angeles and Chicago are the top three in numbers of Russians.   

Sorry for a slight off topic, but are you sure about Chicago? There is a big number of Ukrainians and Poles there, not the Russians, or?

[Mishenka]

Here is an article of interest on the subject from 2006
http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/russiapop.htm

Russia's Population Set to Decline From 143 Million Today to 111 Million in 2050
By Matt Rosenberg
 May 31 2006

Russian President Vladimir Putin recently directed his nation's parliament to develop a plan to reduce the country's falling birthrate. In a speech to parliament on May 10, 2006, Putin called the problem of Russia's dramatically declining population, "The most acute problem of contemporary Russia."
The president called on parliament to provide incentives for couples to have a second child to increase the birth rate in order to stop the country's plummeting population.

Russia's population peaked in the early 1990s (at the time of the end of the Soviet Union) with about 148 million people in the country. Today, Russia's population is approximately 143 million. The United States Census Bureau estimates that Russia's population will decline from the current 143 million to a mere 111 million by 2050, a loss of more than 30 million people and a decrease of more than 20%. The primary causes of Russia's population decrease and loss of about 700,000 to 800,000 citizens each year are a high death rate, low birth rate, high rate of abortions, and a low level of immigration.

High Death Rate
Russia has a very high death rate of 15 deaths per 1000 people per year. This is far higher than the world's average death rate of just under 9. The death rate in the U.S. is 8 per 1000 and for the United Kingdom it's 10 per 1000. Alcohol-related deaths in Russia are very high and alcohol-related emergencies represent the bulk of emergency room visits in the country.
With this high death rate, Russian life expectancy is low - the World Health Organization estimates the life expectancy of Russian men at 59 years while women's life expectancy is considerably better at 72 years. This difference is primarily a result of high rates of alcoholism among males.

Low Birth Rate
Understandably, due these high rates of alcoholism and economic hardship, women feel less than encouraged to have children in Russia. Russia's total fertility rate is low at 1.3 births per woman. This number represents the number of children each Russian woman has during her lifetime. A replacement total fertility rate to maintain a stable population is 2.1 births per woman. Obviously, with such a low total fertility rate Russian women are contributing to a declining population.
The birth rate in the country is also quite low; the crude birth rate is 10 births per 1000 people. The world average is just over 20 per 1000 and in the U.S. the rate is 14 per 1000.

Abortion
During the Soviet era, abortion was quite common and was utilized as a method of birth control. That technique remains common and quite popular today, keeping the country's birth rate exceptionally low. According to a Russian news source, there are more abortions than births in Russia.
The online news source mosnews.com reported that in 2004 1.6 million women had abortions in Russia while 1.5 million gave birth. In 2003, the BBC reported that Russia had, "13 terminations for every 10 live births."

Immigration
Additionally, immigration into Russia is low - immigrants are primarily a trickle of ethnic Russians moving out of former republics (but now independent countries) of the Soviet Union. Brain drain and emigration from Russia to Western Europe and other parts of the world is high as native Russians seek to better their economic situation.
Putin himself explored the issues surrounding the low birth rate during his speech, asking "What has prevented a young family, a young woman, from making this decision? The answers are obvious: low incomes, a lack of normal housing, doubts about the level of medical services and quality education. At times, there are doubts about the ability to provide enough food."

[kievstar]

I live in Chicago area about 4 days a month and Chicago is the 3rd largest city of Polish people in World including cities in Poland.  There are more Ukrainians in Chicago than Russians too.  But I run into a lot of people who say there Russian but lived in Ukraine.  So maybe the census is wrong as people write down the wrong information. 

But I think New York and California have majority of Russian people and Illinois #1 for Ukrainian in USA. 

[Misha]

An estimated four million to 5.5 million Russian-speaking immigrants live across the United States.

Where do you get your numbers?

The United States Census Bureau estimates that there are 3,105,965 people who indicated Russian as at least one of their ancestries in the United States based on the American Community Survey and/or the Puerto Rico Community Survey conducted in 2006 (source http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=D&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-mt_name=ACS_2006_EST_G2000_B04003). This is based on total ancestry with somebody indicating that they had some Russian ancestry.

If we rely on first ancestry reported (i.e. they indicated first Russian) then this estimate drops down to 2,186,872 (source http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=D&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-mt_name=ACS_2006_EST_G2000_B04001).

Finally, for people reporting a single Russian ancestry, that number goes down to 1,349,941 (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/DTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=D&-ds_name=D&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-mt_name=ACS_2006_EST_G2000_C04004).

As you can see, none of the estimates are anywhere close to your 5.5 million. The best estimate would likely be between 1.5 and 2 million based on what people reported as their first ancestry and those who said Russian was their sole ancestry.

[ambach123]

To answer the original question, this news item may help.

http://windowoneurasia.blogspot.com/2007/08/window-on-eurasia-russian-women-in.html

According to records in the first half of 07; about one quarter of ethnic Russian women in Moscow married non  Russians, mostly Muslims; I was surprised as that is a very large number, seems hard to believe.

I copy and paste the last paragraph.

Olga Kurbatova, a senior scholar at the Vavilov Institute of General Genetics, noted that “girls in the capital see in migrants precisely the model of a real man: in practice, they don’t drink, especially Muslims like the Chechens, Ingush and Azerbaijanis,” they work hard, they are able to support a family and they want children.”
“Many of our [ethnic] Russian men,” she noted, are “exactly the opposite” with regard to each of these highly valued characteristics.
And Elena Spirkina, the rector of the Moscow Institute of Practical Psychology and Psychoanalysis, added, “Moscow women are seeking stability” when they marry “an Eastern man. They seek that which they did not have in their own childhood with their own parents.”

The same apply to Western men, why they are looking for one. WM would also have those traits.

[Lily]

To answer the original question, this news item may help.

http://windowoneurasia.blogspot.com/2007/08/window-on-eurasia-russian-women-in.html

According to records in the first half of 07; about one quarter of ethnic Russian women in Moscow married non  Russians, mostly Muslims; I was surprised as that is a very large number, seems hard to believe.

I copy and paste the last paragraph.

Olga Kurbatova, a senior scholar at the Vavilov Institute of General Genetics, noted that “girls in the capital see in migrants precisely the model of a real man: in practice, they don’t drink, especially Muslims like the Chechens, Ingush and Azerbaijanis,” they work hard, they are able to support a family and they want children.”
“Many of our [ethnic] Russian men,” she noted, are “exactly the opposite” with regard to each of these highly valued characteristics.
And Elena Spirkina, the rector of the Moscow Institute of Practical Psychology and Psychoanalysis, added, “Moscow women are seeking stability” when they marry “an Eastern man. They seek that which they did not have in their own childhood with their own parents.”

The same apply to Western men, why they are looking for one. WM would also have those traits.

I am very surprised reading this about RW and Eastern men. Cannot think of any RW like these.

[groovlstk]

I am very surprised reading this about RW and Eastern men. Cannot think of any RW like these.

According to my wife, this also works in reverse from the way we expect it. There are many men, particularly those working illegally in Moscow - Azeris, Chechens, and Turkmen - who would do anything to get propiska in Moscow and marriage is a quick and easy path. Sound familiar?

[kievstar]

Can not believe everything you read as 25% seems very high but maybe Moscow is different than Kiev on how Women view Muslims.

[GoodOlBoy]

I hear the same thing over and over again expressed by Russian and Ukrainian women from my area of N. Miami (age range early 30's - 45 yrs. old).

"Russian men are spoiled (mostly by their Mother's)" and "Russian men don't want to have a family (betrayal, several women... etc.)".

Surprisingly, after I talked to some of these ladies, I came away with a different perspective than before our conversation. I really believe that the majority of these ladies would have stayed in Russia or the Ukraine, during good or bad economic times, if they could have just found a man that believed in "family" first.

[ambach123]

Russian women and Ukrainian women are completely different, at least the way the view foreigners.

Russia has had interactions with Central Asia for over a thousand years. Muslims make up about 15% of their population.

It is hard to believe but you can't argue with the marriage records.