Survey Results - Third Question: Causes of Divorce

[Ooooops]

Is that any clearer?

Ooooops...  sorry...       Ok, then it's not the age issue I guess (although most of our married friends don't have more than 1-2 years difference in age, not 8-10)

[Salmonberry]

>>Guys, get real. Sex is MAIN reason for divorces.<<

That is an interesting opinion. The claim that "sex is the MAIN reason" leaves a few questions unanswered.

Are you saying it is because the WM are not getting enough sex from their wives? Or maybe that the quality of the sex is sub-standard?

What, specifically, is it about "sex" that you believe creates such strife in the marriage that it leads to divorce?

- Dan

Hmm... WM = white males?  I am sort of new to this abbreviation. Anyways, what I meant.
It is very awkward to discuss these subjects but as far as I know, and - unfortunately - from several men and women's sad experiences (I know several international couples split and divorced) sex issues were the main marriage-breaking factor in their life together.  For some men who brought ladies to the US ceratin sexual routines were not acceptable although they could cyber all night long before    for some girls who agreed to marry mature men Viagra turned out to be an obstacle although even some normal men on this forum expressed total agreement with its usage.  Another thing is ... some men (SOME) believe they can try very close to illegal things in bedroom just because she is a foreign and her official status is pending.
Off topic here.  Would it be much safer for a lady - and for a man too - if they gave them more than 90 days period to explore each other???  Would THAT solve lots of problems?    After talking to one lady who was not sure what she was doing in the US:  I just thought I could bear him for a year or so...   sic!     
To return to sex subject.  Many men don't even marry gals from FSU, they just turn into sex tourists and that is f""""""" sad!

[Doll]

WM = white males

Western Men 

[ScottinCrimea]

Salmomberry,  Every example you give would have been avoided by the two taking the time to get to know each other first.  In each case it is an example of unrealistic expectations by one or the other.

[Admin]

Hmm... WM = white males?  I am sort of new to this abbreviation. Anyways, what I meant.
It is very awkward to discuss these subjects but as far as I know, and - unfortunately - from several men and women's sad experiences (I know several international couples split and divorced) sex issues were the main marriage-breaking factor in their life together.  For some men who brought ladies to the US ceratin sexual routines were not acceptable although they could cyber all night long before    for some girls who agreed to marry mature men Viagra turned out to be an obstacle although even some normal men on this forum expressed total agreement with its usage.  Another thing is ... some men (SOME) believe they can try very close to illegal things in bedroom just because she is a foreign and her official status is pending.
Off topic here.  Would it be much safer for a lady - and for a man too - if they gave them more than 90 days period to explore each other???  Would THAT solve lots of problems?    After talking to one lady who was not sure what she was doing in the US:  I just thought I could bear him for a year or so...   sic!     
To return to sex subject.  Many men don't even marry gals from FSU, they just turn into sex tourists and that is f""""""" sad!

>>Many men don't even marry gals from FSU, they just turn into sex tourists and that is f""""""" sad!<<

SB,

What, exactly, is your definition of a "sex tourist" ?

- Dan

[vwrw]

I am surprised to see that lack of desire to communicate have gathered 11 votes.

I have always thought that lack of desire to communicate is triggered by some problems in relationship and thus, it is an effect, not cause.

[Vaughn]

I have always thought that lack of desire to communicate is triggered by some problems in relationship and thus, it is an effect, not cause.

Or, there never was much communication to begin with. I've met a few couples who marched to
the wedding altar as complete strangers. What's more, I might get into a conversation with a newly
married AM - as my wife engages his new RW bride. The stories, the expectations and perceptions
sometimes don't mesh. They are worlds apart, and soon will find the road ahead a rocky one.

Effect and cause, good thought. I see a few items in the poll that could fall under one heading,
maybe disappointment - or - trust issues. Those were two issues about which my wife was most
concerned, and long before we tied the knot, or even filed K-1.

For every "nice guy" who ends up being used - I'd wager there are fifteen "nice ladies" who end
up being misled. The disappointment comes first, then the trust breaks down. And then - their
reason for divorce (depending on who tells the story) is assigned one of the reasons above.

The more I read, the more aware we are that Elvira and I dodged some very nasty bullets through
some blind luck, and by giving one another sufficient time to build trust. There's no luck at all
involved in maintaining that trust - that's where the work is.   

[Admin]

I am surprised to see that lack of desire to communicate have gathered 11 votes.

I have always thought that lack of desire to communicate is triggered by some problems in relationship and thus, it is an effect, not cause.

You raise the issue of causality. We looked at that issue, and as best we could (nothing is perfect) tried to establish independent variables for the survey responses.

To your point about communication, there is a HUGE amount of information to support the lack of communication as a causal factor - but here is just one of them:

From -- http://ezinearticles.com/?Understanding-Why-Marriages-Fail-Can-Save-Yours&id=248871

In every relationship the ability to communicate is essential and marriage is no different. If the partners in a marriage close off to each other instead of working to resolve conflicts the problems just continue to grow larger under the surface until one or both partners explode. It is important to the success of the marriage to be able to talk to each other about dreams, hopes, and fears and feel safe about it. The bible says that “the two become one” in marriage. It is impossible for this to happen without good communication. It takes two to make a marriage work and if communication is an issue then both partners must agree to fix it.

Here is another link to one of several sources we used to establish the list -- http://www.divorcereform.org/cau.html

As I mentioned earlier, we certainly missed factors that some would claim are more significant than those we specified. Still, I feel pretty confident we managed to get the really 'big-hitters' - and will defer to any future study that might prove ours to have missed something - if, and when, that future study is commissioned.

- Dan

[Ooooops]

If people don't even speak the same language in lots of cases of AM/RW marriages then lack of communication seems pretty logical to me...   

[Admin]

If people don't even speak the same language in lots of cases of AM/RW marriages then lack of communication seems pretty logical to me...   

If your hypothesis turns out to be true, then the results we publish should show statistically significant correlation between Language and Communication.

I would point out, however, that the question in the survey was pretty explicit in seeking to segregate any language issue vice a lack of willingness to communicate effectively.

We shall see.

- Dan

[Vaughn]

If people don't even speak the same language...

In 2002, several Russian ladies we know were asked by the Moscow interviewer, "If your English is so weak, and
he speaks little or no Russian - how can you two possibly have a meaningful relationship?" More than one
interview fell apart that summer, with the unprepared applicant in tears.

Back then, I thought the question to be unfair. Now I know it was not only fair, but a very intelligent,
and relevant one.
 

[Ooooops]

If your hypothesis turns out to be true, then the results we publish should show statistically significant correlation between Language and Communication.

Yes, that will be interesting to see.

I would point out, however, that the question in the survey was pretty explicit in seeking to segregate any language issue vice a lack of willingness to communicate effectively.

Well....  A dog may wish to communicate effectively but he has no means for it.      I'm joking of course, but if a person cannot express his/her thoughts then willingness may dwindle pretty quick out of frustration...   

[Ooooops]

Back then, I thought the question to be unfair. Now I know it was not only fair, but a very intelligent,
and relevant one.
 

Agree

[Admin]

Well....  A dog may wish to communicate effectively but he has no means for it.      I'm joking of course, but if a person cannot express his/her thoughts then willingness may dwindle pretty quick out of frustration...   

I think you make the point perfectly. If a dog, with a decidedly smaller capacity for intelligence and communication (and without language) can make its feelings known to humans - then it stands to reason that a man or woman, with far GREATER intelligence and capacity can find ways to effectively communicate even without language skills - IF THEY ARE MOTIVATED TO DO SO.

Exactly the point of the different survey responses.

- Dan

[Admin]

In 2002, several Russian ladies we know were asked by the Moscow interviewer, "If your English is so weak, and
he speaks little or no Russian - how can you two possibly have a meaningful relationship?" More than one
interview fell apart that summer, with the unprepared applicant in tears.

Back then, I thought the question to be unfair. Now I know it was not only fair, but a very intelligent,
and relevant one.
 

We considered this for inclusion in the survey - questions/responses designed to address whether people shared a language at the time of their marriage. The problem quickly became how to address the level of language they shared, and then determine a datum point for determining what level of language sharing was 'good' versus 'bad' (effective versus ineffectice - pick your descriptor). Metrics for this sort of thing are extraordinarily difficult to establish - which is why, I suspect, that embassy consular officers have not been able to easily draw a clear conclusion about how to address this issue in their decision-making.

If anyone would like to begin submitting some proposed questions and responses for a follow-up/future survey - we can begin collecting those now.

- Dan

[Ooooops]

I think you make the point perfectly. If a dog, with a decidedly smaller capacity for intelligence and communication (and without language) can make its feelings known to humans - then it stands to reason that a man or woman, with far GREATER intelligence and capacity can find ways to effectively communicate even without language skills - IF THEY ARE MOTIVATED TO DO SO.

Of course, the greater the motivation - the higher we are ready to jump through different hoops to get the result.       But from the other hand, dogs don't always get what they want.   I seriously doubt that they want their **** cut off, for example.    

[Admin]

Of course, the greater the motivation - the higher we are ready to jump through different hoops to get the result.       But from the other hand, dogs don't always get what they want.   I seriously doubt that they want their **** cut off, for example.    

And if the dog could take a similar poll/survey, do you suppose they might claim that lack of language created their problem?

- Dan

[ares]

I chose cultural, commitment, communication. Everything else is just typical of any divorce in any relationship. Those that i chose, I think, are routed in the difference in culture, mentality, perception...thus no understanding of commitment or communication on her part in the way American men do.

But it's a general question applying to all marriages not just cross cultural as you misinterpreted it. Cross cultural friction is just one of the factors listed contributing to the breakdown of marriage. You have to read the question carefully. I think that you should vote again. Are Russians all that different from the rest of us who are of European descent? If you want to argue with someone you can invent all the differences you're able to depending on the limit of your imagination. 

[Ooooops]

And if the dog could take a similar poll/survey, do you suppose they might claim that lack of language created their problem?

 

Well, if that dog can communicate as an equal partner would the thought of snipping him ever enter your mind?   

[Admin]

Well, if that dog can communicate as an equal partner would the thought of snipping him ever enter your mind?   

Sounds like you may be crossing-over into ANOTHER of the survey responses - that of Family Goals, and a possible difference in objectives.

Anyway - I think you see my point.

The survey is what it is - and it is not perfect - but it is a vast improvement over anything that has been done in the past - AND - from what I see of the results, they pass the 'common sense' test - to me. We shall see just how much disagreement we encounter once we get the report published in a few days.

- Dan

[Ooooops]

The survey is what it is - and it is not perfect - but it is a vast improvement over anything that has been done in the past ...

Dan, I didn't mean to undermine your efforts in any way.   I'm just chatting...  instead of doing some  choruses...   

[Admin]

Dan, I didn't mean to undermine your efforts in any way.   I'm just chatting...  instead of doing some  choruses...   

Yes, I did not recognize any malice in your questioning. In fact, I think you brought up some very good points - and I hope I answered them without becoming defensive. If I seemed defensive, I apologize. I actually was enjoying our exchange.

The truth is that I firmly believe what we have achieved with this survey is VERY significant. It addresses nearly all the major 'hot buttons' associated with cross-cultural marriage/divorce. In some instances, it dashes pre-conceived notions. In most cases it upholds what most of us already knew from 'common sense' - and in a few cases, it presents some surprises with new insights.

Anyway - your challenges and questions help. They make me/us look at the survey results with an even more critical eye - and if we missed anything, we need to be forthcoming about it. So far, I think we have been holding up reasonably well - but since there is no such thing as the 'perfect' survey, there will always be areas for further improvement and for future exploration.

Thanks for chatting - and if you really meant "choruses" (and not 'chores'), I hope your other choir members do not mind your absence 

- Dan

[Ooooops]

Thanks for chatting - and if you really meant "choruses" (and not 'chores'), I hope your other choir members do not mind your absence 

Glad to be helpful   

And yes, of course I meant "choruses"!   It just tells you how often I use this word or act on it...    ).   

[ScottinCrimea]

In most cases it upholds what most of us already knew from 'common sense' - and in a few cases, it presents some surprises with new insights.
- Dan

Dan,  I'm just curious as to what where the biggest surprises for you.

[Admin]

Dan,  I'm just curious as to what where the biggest surprises for you.

Scott,

I plan to speak to some of that when we get the report finalized and published. So far, the results have not been surprising in their outcomes generally, though the magnitudes have been a bit difference than I expected. For example, I expected cross-cultural divorce rate to be lower than domestic divorce rate - but I would have anticipated an even lower rate for cross-cultural marriage. I also was surprised at the table of divorce rate according to length of courtship, and would have expected the 0 - 2 week group to have had a much higher rate of divorce.

More to come.

- Dan