RM as Marriage Partners?

[Sculpto]

I think when considering the mortality rate it is probably wise to at least give lip service to how the wars have contributed to the statistics.  I have never seen a real accounting for casualties in Afganistan or Chechnya.  How many military "accidents" occur in which recruits die?  

I also have to totally agree with Jooky's comments about trailer park Americans.  How about for example Lake County California.  I have a friend who lives up there.. on his street EVERY home has at least one person in rehab.. and not so much for alcohol but more frequently for meth.. the incidence of domestic violence in his area are so high that the police actually have a special task force specifically to deal with it.  

Perception depends a lot on where you come from and where you end up when you are overseas.  If we were talking about mexico on the same day I can take you to see shanty towns that seem endless where violence and alcoholism are endemic and justa few short miles away the biggest most opulent mansions in the world.  If you met the residents of the shanty town and said all Mexicans are uneducated lazy drunks it would only be accurate to those that live int he shanty town.. but.. if you saw only the millionaires homes you might walk away thinking Mexicans are the most cultured and respectable people you have ever met.  

[Misha]

Misha, I agree that many (especially older) Russian men have health problems due to drinking and smoking. This does not make them bad men, and does not give us course to travel to Russia with disrespect for the people.

Again, one can be respectful of a country and acknowledge that there are deep social problems. The problem is that it is a spectrum. Yes, you will have extremes at either end. However, the higher the average alcohol consumption in any given community, region, country, the more likely that you will have the problems that invariably ensue. This includes health problems and social problems. You will increase the odds that somebody will drink and drive, you increase the odds of violence, you increase the odds of alcoholism, you increase the odds of alcohol fatalities. In other words, the more people that drink and the more they are likely to drink, the greater the odds that more people will suffer from the consequences.

Let's take as a case in point smoking. I cannot guarantee that any person who smokes will get cancer or any other type of illness associated with smoking. You can easily find people who lived to 100 years of age smoking two packs per day. However, if I have two groups, one of 1000 people who smoke two packs a day and another who do not smoke, I can guarantee you that the 1,000 smokers over the course of their lifetime will suffer disproportionately from lung cancer and a variety of other illnesses that are caused by smoking.

[Jooky]

Again, one can be respectful of a country and acknowledge that there are deep social problems.

Do you think that GoodOlBoy's attitude that he 'could careless' about what Russian men think is respectful of the country? In your opinion, is this the attitude of an 'ambassador of goodwill'?

Does making claims that all Russian men are bad show respect and 'goodwill' towards Russia?

[Misha]

I do not deny that life expectancy for Russian Males is that low, however, bringing the safety factor, accidents, drinking, health care, macho attitude of males, military service, all counts to why it is so low, not just drinking.

Again, some causes you list are applicable to both men and women: both Russian men and women have the same health care system, so health care does not account for the wide discrepancy between between average life expectancy for males and females (a bit over 13 years). Also, are RM the only ones to drive in cars? Bad driving and not wearing seat belts are just as likely to injure all the people in the vehicle, not only the men. No other country has such a large spread between men and women.

Also, how do you explain why Russian males live on average years less than the men of Kazakhstan or the other Central Asian Republics? They also suffer from a macho attitude and I am sure they also don't buckle up when they drive and I doubt they have a better health care system....

Again, the only countries that are worse for males and average life expectancy is Sub-Saharan Africa.

[Misha]

I think when considering the mortality rate it is probably wise to at least give lip service to how the wars have contributed to the statistics.  I have never seen a real accounting for casualties in Afganistan or Chechnya.  How many military "accidents" occur in which recruits die?  

When you have a large sample size (all the men of a given country numbering in the tens of millions), even a few thousand men being killed each and every year in wars and military accidents will only have a minimal effect on the average life expectancy.

[Misha]

For Siberia and the other Russian speakers, here is a nice citation from the website of Spravedlivaya Rossiya:

"Частая причина смертности  граждан трудоспособного возраста, особенно мужчин - это алкоголизм. Удельный вес смертности, связанной с употреблением алкоголя (хронический алкоголизм, алкогольные психозы, случайные отравления алкоголем, хронический панкреатит алкогольной этиологии) в общей структуре смертности в России недопустимо высок – 52,9 на 100 тыс. населения. Продолжается рост смертности от болезней, при которых алкоголь является фактором риска: это цирроз печени, инфаркт миокарда, ассоциированные с алкоголизмом суициды.

Табакокурение так же является одним из факторов риска развития сердечно-сосудистых и онкологических заболеваний, которые являются лидерами в структуре смертности трудоспособного населения."

The first line states: "A common cause of death for the citizens of working age, notably men, is alcoholism."

Source: http://duma.spravedlivo.ru/news/?Id=296

This site has a nice piece on the leading causes of death in Russia: http://www.imcl.ru/news/060113_coctail.php.

[Diplomacy]

Suicide rate in Men under 39 is very high in FSU also.  Another area to look at in the discussion is mental illness and environment.  While both the women and the men have access to the same health care, the machismo attitude lends to not going to the doctor in men also.

 

[Diplomacy]

Article discusses suicide thanks Misha saved me a lot of time trying to find that report.

[SANDRO43]

NOTICE TO READERS

- I smoke since I was 15 (50+ years)
- I drive with my seatbelt unfastened (at least in town)
- I drink a glass or two of wine, or a beer, at dinner, and a tot of Cognac afterwards

According to somebody's definition, I'm a BAD man and not a good Christian (no great problem with that ).

THEREFORE, I'M ALREADY DEAD, PAY NO ATTENTION TO MY POSTS.

Possible mitigating circumstances:

- I never beat my woman (even my ex, but now that I'm single, hard to find a steady target )
- I do not live in a trailer park (only gypsies do that here)

SO, MAYBE I'M ONLY HALF-DEAD, JUST READ HALF OF MY POSTS .

[siberia]

1 0 causes of death in Russia:  
высокое кровяное давление 35,5%; high blood pressure 35.5%;
 высокий уровень холестерина 23%; high cholesterol 23%;
 курение 17,1%; smoking 17.1%;
 нездоровое питание 12,9%; unhealthy diet 12.9%;
 ожирение 12,5%; obesity 12.5%;
 алкоголь 11,9%; Alcohol 11.9%;
недостаточная физическая нагрузка 9%; Lack of physical activity 9%;
 загрязнение 1,2%; contamination  1.2%; (not exactly sure what this means)
 отравление свинцом 1,2%; lead poisoning 1.2%;
 запрещенные наркотики 0,9%. illicit drugs 0.9%.

From the source Misha  quoted. This is not separating male/female causes. And tell me that you don't see more RW smoking than you ever saw AW smoking (since at least the 1960s)
"Official statistics give the two leading causes of death in Russia as heart disease - accounting for about 60 percent of all deaths - and accidents, followed by cancer, drug abuse and suicide." (an article i just read)
"Deaths related to stress, smoking, alcoholism and TB are incredibly high, and soon, probably deaths from AIDS will also rise."

No one, not I, not Jooky are denying that alcohol is a problem. No one is denying that there is domestic violence. But I will argue to the end that  "ALL" Russian men are bad. (taking Anastassia's words).

I also agree with Diplomacy that the machismo attitude tends to mean that men go to the doctors too little or too late.

[siberia]

I guess it just makes me sad that Anastassia's life experiences have made her believe such sweeping generalizations. As for GOB, his statements about how horrible RM are, just make him feel superior and if that is what he needs, that is his deal.

[siberia]

i just found an excerpt from an article that appeared in JAMA. I quote it here:

Mortality and natality data from the vital statistics systems of Russia and the United States. Setting.-Russia, 1990-1994. Population.-Entire population of Russia. Main Outcome Variables.-Mortality rates, life expectancy, and contribution to change in life expectancy.

 Methods.-Application of standard life-table methods to calculate life expectancy by year, and a partitioning method to assess the contribution of specific causes of death and age groups to the overall decline in life expectancy. United States data presented for comparative purposes.

Results.-Age-adjusted mortality in Russia rose by almost 33% between 1990 and 1994. During that period, life expectancy for Russian men and women declined dramatically from 63.8 and 74.4 years to 57.7 and 71.2 years, respectively, while in the United States, life expectancy increased for both men and women from 71.8 and 78.8 years to 72.4 and 79.0 years, respectively.

 More than 75% of the decline in life expectancy was due to increased mortality rates for ages 25 to 64 years. Overall, cardiovascular diseases (heart disease and stroke) and injuries accounted for 65% of the decline in life expectancy while infectious diseases, including pneumonia and influenza, accounted for 5.8%, chronic liver diseases and cirrhosis for 2.4%, other alcohol-related causes for 9.6%, and cancer for 0.7%.

Increases in cardiovascular mortality accounted for 41.6% of the decline in life expectancy for women and 33.4% for men, while increases in mortality from injuries (eg, falls, occupational injuries, motor vehicle crashes, suicides, and homicides) accounted for 32.8% of the decline in life expectancy for men and 21.8% for women.

Conclusion.-The striking rise in Russian mortality is beyond the peacetime experience of industrialized countries, with a 5-year decline in life expectancy in 4 years' time. Many factors appear to be operating simultaneously, including economic and social instability, high rates of tobacco and alcohol consumption, poor nutrition, depression, and deterioration of the health care system. Problems in data quality and reporting appear unable to account for these findings. These results clearly demonstrate that major declines in health and life expectancy can take place rapidly.

[Misha]

Article discusses suicide thanks Misha saved me a lot of time trying to find that report.

Remember, alcohol is a depressant and quite often is used by those committing suicide to carry out the suicide to completion.

[Misha]

Many factors appear to be operating simultaneously, including economic and social instability, high rates of tobacco and alcohol consumption, poor nutrition, depression, and deterioration of the health care system. Problems in data quality and reporting appear unable to account for these findings. These results clearly demonstrate that major declines in health and life expectancy can take place rapidly.

And, this is what I have been saying all along. Economic and social instability are hard to change quickly, but alcohol consumption and smoking are two of the easiest ways to address the problem. If you can people to drink and smoke less, this will has a drastic impact on the health of the population. Gorbachev tried to bring in reforms to curtail alcohol consumption, but was not very successful. Things have only gotten worse since then.

[groovlstk]

My wife and I have many Russian friends, most married. If I were to ask the women (the great majority of whom are married to RM) if they thought AM were "better" than RM or even simply made for better husbands, I'm sure my question would be met with bewilderment followed by either laughter or scorn. BTW I'd never say this as I have too much respect for most of our RM friends - the ones who are fathers are particularly doting and caring, as much so as any American fathers I know. FWIW, none of these women came here on K visas or used marriage agencies.

And yes, they do take a little drink from time to time, as I do, perhaps one day we'll all join Sandro in one of the outer circles of Dante's inferno. BYOB guys.

[Diplomacy]

It is OK Sandro.  I drank in the Ukraine, and smoke.  I had a beer with Jack.  I have a house though not an apartment.  My P in EE, and Business degree from top 20 Universities.  I am not sure if that adds up to an MBA or not.

I am a devout Christian but the Catholics do not think so, since I am a Mason.  Although they can not be good Christians either since you can have wine at communion.

Got the Height going for me.  Never cheated on or abused a woman.  I guess we are going to have to let God have the final vote.  I see what Anastasia is saying though.  Too much of most anything is not good for you.

If she has all the attributes that she is looking for.  It is just another way of saying that she is trying to find someone similar to her.  I really see a big change in the 30 yo people I met and talked to versus their parents generation in the Ukraine.  Maybe they lose the luster after years in the environment. 

I mean lets get perspective, I have never once seen a post of a guy looking for an ugly, overweight, heavy drinking, smoking, uneducated, prude, not tall enough to go on the good rides at Disney woman to marry.

[SANDRO43]

And yes, they do take a little drink from time to time, as I do, perhaps one day we'll all join Sandro in one of the outer circles of Dante's inferno.

I was hoping more for Purgatory, now that the German Pope has decreed that Limbo does not really exist (to the chagrin of Trinidadians ).

[Sculpto]

I found this on Craigslist today... kind of interesting...

Date: 2008-12-20, 11:05AM PST



OMG, I can totally relate. I keep getting my heart broken by Russians. I'm not sure if I can try again. They're perfect but make me feel so bad after things end.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 2008-12-20, 1:46PM EST



I find myself very attracted to Russian Men, especially over the last few years. They are very sexy, have a great sense of humor, they have the career, and of course a sexy accent. I've been to Russia and they seem just right. In fact, I'm pleased to say I don't know of one that drinks or smokes or one who is uneducated.But unfortunately, they aren't keepers. Why do I keep doing this to myself? I mean when you look at American Men, there's no comparison
, Russian Men are hotter. American Men have that ugly short-hair buzz cut, no culture, no accent, can't dress and have a personality to match the hicks trolls in Borat. Boy, can Russian Men dress. Very well. Russian Men are romantic. If not a little cheezy, but still very romantic. They carry a girl's purse/ bags, hold her hand helping her down, open car doors and pay for dinner. American guys know how to be a FWB and that's about it. Romance does not exist in their mind. Or how to be a gentleman.

But they always break my heart in the end.

f/20s   
 

[Gator]

American guys know how to be a FWB and that's about it. Romance does not exist in their mind. Or how to be a gentleman. 

Very interesting.  This AW has the same general opinion about AM as AM have of AW.     

RW have voiced the same complaint about some AM, reserving the term loser or manchild for other AM.     This is an obvious hint to those still looking - all women crave romance, and RW in particular expect it.

The term FWB was new to an old goat like me.  Choices:   four wheel bike, Ft. Walton Beach, or friends with benefits (an elevated form of casual sex without romantic strings, fvckbuddy). 

[Diplomacy]

Yes Gator the last one is the correct guess.  Meaning make good friends but lack in the romance department.  I can not tell you how many times I have to have a chat with my married friends in that department. 

[Misha]

... very attracted to Russian Men ... very sexy, have a great sense of humor, they have the career [they have "the" career?], and of course a sexy accent. ... But unfortunately, they aren't keepers. [Too bad she didn't say why.] ...when you look at American Men, there's no comparison , Russian Men are hotter. American Men have that ugly short-hair buzz cut, no culture, no accent, .... Boy, can Russian Men dress. Very well.

f/20s   

Well, at least we can say that men are not the only ones preoccupied with looks 

[ScottinCrimea]

I'm coming in a bit late to this thread, but I find GoodoldBoy's comments very interesting.  Although I have never lived in a trailer park, I have seen the same behavior and heard the same comments in some apartment complexes that I have lived in in the US.  I also hear the same comments about Mexican men, that they drink too much, beat their wives and cheat on them.  I have also seen quite the opposite in both groups, lest someone accuse me of prejudice.

I wonder if GOB has ever actually had a relationship or deep conversation with any RM.  It seems his only exposure is what the women have to tell him.  Just imagine what a RW's view of AW would be if she relied solely on the opinions of some here.

As far as my experience with RM, of course I have seen those who fit the negative descriptions given here, and the issue of alcohol is a significant contributing part, but I also spent much time with RM of all walks of life, most notably with doctors, successful businessmen, members of the government as well as the common everyday, just trying to eke out a living kind of man, and many of them are some of the best fathers, husbands and friends I have ever seen.  I guess my experience is more well-rounded because I actually lived there rather then spending time just visiting, and knowing the language also helps.

For someone to spend two months in one area of Russia with limited exposure to the subject in question to indict all RM as being chain smoking alcoholic wife beating scum is narrow minded at best.

[Misha]

For someone to spend two months in one area of Russia with limited exposure to the subject in question to indict all RM as being chain smoking alcoholic wife beating scum is narrow minded at best.

Again, to say that everybody drinks and smokes is wrong, but to ignore problems is also incorrect. Let's take smoking. According to WHO statistics 70 percent of Russian men and about 25 percent of Russian women smoke. (Source: http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?topic_id=1424&fuseaction=topics.event_summary&event_id=361820)

This compares to roughly 17.8% of adult AW who smoke and 23.6% of men who smoke (source: Trends in Tobacco Use 2008 downloaded at http://www.lungusa.org/site/c.dvLUK9O0E/b.33347/k.AC09/Data__Statistics.htm).

In other words, you have close to three times more men who would be smoking per capita in Russia as compared to the United States.

It is important to note that smoking is not only a risk for lung cancer and other diseases that we typically associate with smoking, but is also a major risk factor in heart and cardiovascular disease (globally close two twice as many premature deaths are associated with cardiovascular disease and smoking than cancer and smoking).

In other words, the high rates of cardiovascular disease and death in Russia could be correlated to the high rates of smoking and the the overal quantity of tobacco products that are smoked: "Russians smoke 2,500 cigarettes per capita annually; when corrected for nonsmokers, that rate climes to 4,300, or 240-250 packs per Russian smoker per year." Again, this is more than a cigarette or two on the occasional night out     

[vox11]

And what about that masters degree? Where does that fit into anything exactly? 

Anyone who has a pulse is expected to have a masters ( because bachelor's is a rather uncommon here still ) degree, maybe in basket weaving, but a degree. So no degree == no pulse, too bad!

[BC]

Again, to say that everybody drinks and smokes is wrong, but to ignore problems is also incorrect. Let's take smoking. According to WHO statistics 70 percent of Russian men and about 25 percent of Russian women smoke. (Source: http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?topic_id=1424&fuseaction=topics.event_summary&event_id=361820)

Hey.. we all have problems.. LOL

I'll take a rather bold approach and simply say that if one takes an equivalent 'slice' of social strata from FSU and US, compare the smoking and drinking and maybe even wife beating the percentages won't be that different.