RM as Marriage Partners?

[kievstar]

AM drink just as much as RM.  Not sure people really get outside much in the USA.  One difference is very poor souls in USA tend to smoke crack or other cheap drugs as in Ukraine they drink home made booze.  Detroit has more than 10,000 crack houses (places were people buy drugs).  Chicago is even worse for number of drug dens.  Milwaukee has more bars per person than any city in the World with a population over 20,000 residents.  At one time they had 1,500 different companies making beer in the city of Milwaukee.

I drink several times a month and men in Ukraine are very surprised to see AM who can drink wine, champagne, cocktails, vodka, cognac, etc all at the samtime and have no issues.  I am considered a light weight compared to most AM I know.  These men are not wearing wife beaters and living in trailers either.  Men drink in all countries in high numbers except parts of middle east where there not allowed to drink but beating women is not a crime.

Gator and Sandro sound like good guys to hang out with. 

But Anastasia Ash is right.  My friends in Ukraine tell me the very small villages are awful for men drinking and leaving children behind.  But this is no different than Milwaukee, Detroit, Chicago.  Difference is the big cities in USA tend to have these loser men not the small villages.  In Detroit you do not ask a certain race who their father is unless you want to get into a fight.  It is very bad for mothers.

[GoodOlBoy]

Unfortunately, we don't have any of these "wonderful" Russian men coming to America and taking our "fine" fat cows (AW) back home to their Motherland.   :noidea:


GOB

[ScottinCrimea]

My, my we have a lot of strong opinkions here.  Anastasia is of the mind that anyone who is not a God fearing Christian or who drinks or smokes even in moderation is a bad man.  Misha has experience with alcoholic relatives and sees alcohol abuse as the root of all evil.  Sandro enjoys the occasional drink and good cigar and is viewed as corrupt by both, but no less than Gator, who admits to occasionally having one too many.

A big problem here is that the focus is on alcohol rather than all substances that one may abuse.  Alcohol is cheap and easilhy obtained in the FSU and thus is the primary substance abuse problem.  There is no argument that it is a significant problem and its abuse leads to many social ills.  But not all Russian men who drink are evil wife beaters and not all RM who don't drink or smoke are wonderful husbands.

What many are forgetting here is that, while alcohol abuse may be more prevalent in the FSU, drug abuse, both prescription and non precription, is more prevalent in the US.  I think if we add those in the US who abuse drugs to those who abuse alcohol, it will match or exceed those men in the FSU who abuse alcohol.  We''re not even talking about the incidence of meth abuse by women in the US, which, at least in my area, is more significant than use by men.

I see many alcoholics in Ukraine but I don't see many potheads(no offense intended to Sculpto, who uses it for "medicinal" purposes), meth abusers or crackheads.

I think if we change the topic to substance abuse rather than strictly alcohol abuse, we have a very different picture.

[GoodOlBoy]

I don't see many potheads(no offense intended to Sculpto, who uses it for "medicinal" purposes).....

 


GOB

[Sculpto]

IMO, this 'holier than thou' conviction has caused more grief in world history than good, witness the millions who have been forcibly converted to some religion (Christian, Moslem, whatever), with recalcitrants being treated rather harshly, if practical (see the whole interesting subject of syncretism, i.e. 'If you can't lick them, sort of join them'). I don't try to convince anybody to follow my habits, and I appreciate the same consideration from others. As I said already, I know of no atheist or agnostic missionaries, which for me is in itself a praiseworthy attitude.

We have and old saying here: Vivi e lascia vivere (Live and let live) . I think there's a LOT of wisdom in that .

Sandro.. standing ovation for you my friend.  You have hit the bullseye on why I adhere to no religion yet pursue the spiritual beauty of all of them.  Doctrine is a stuffy world to live in. 

[Sculpto]

I see many alcoholics in Ukraine but I don't see many potheads(no offense intended to Sculpto, who uses it for "medicinal" purposes), meth abusers or crackheads.

I think if we change the topic to substance abuse rather than strictly alcohol abuse, we have a very different picture.

LOL.. I resemble that remark.. hahaha!  Anyway, we have about 40 medical marijuana dispensaries in SF and a whole district of Oakland is known as "Oaksterdam".  There is even now a "University of Marijuana" where one can pursue a non-accredited degree in Ganja culture and cultivation.  In SF where smoking tabac is now illegal almost everywhere except in your own car or house no one will hassle you for smoking a joint pretty much anywhere.. as long as you have your card. 

I have several friends who make their living providing medicine for AIDS and cancer patients.  They make deliveries constantly.  Each person who does this is serving a few hundred patients.  Most of those patients would be either a lot sicker or a lot less comfortable without it.  I know a couple in their late 80's.  She is Greek, he is kind of WASPish.  Anyway, the old guy has a number of ailments, including cancer, and could get no relief.  I advised them to go to the dispensary and get something in the eatable form.  He has put back the weight he lost from the chemotherapy, sleeps like a baby now and is no longer agitated all the time. 
eating two brownies a day has significantly improved his quality of life at 89 years old and he now swears by it.   

Back in the 90's I watched a number of artist friends self destruct with the help of heroin.  The snorted it and smoked it.  They did not appear as junkies and for several years maintained perfectly functional lives, right up until they didn't and when they went down they tried to take everyone with them.  I have seen stuff like this over and over again and can honestly say I have lost at least 15 people to heroin, coke, or meth.  Most were men but some were women also.  All were degreed proffesional artists, musicians, and even a scientist and a CA state certified master electrician.  I have also seen people lose thier minds from abusing "E" and LSD. 

Substance abuse has been going on for a long time.  Whether it is a drug or booze or whatever, humans, and even some animals, seem to have a need to alter their state of being.  Being around the art world I am probably a lot more exposed to such behaviors than the average person.  These days I smoke a little bit of Ganja before sleep, not every day, only if I can't sleep.  I also sometimes have a little before I go into my art studio as it can help me focus on a task.  I rarely if ever smoke socially because it is not really a social thing for me.  I tend to tune out others if I am buzzed.  I NEVER drink alcohol alone, except for a very occasional apertif or digestif.  In the last five years the ONLY times I have been drunk I was in Ukraine or Russia.  Hmmm...

[GoodOlBoy]

In the last five years the ONLY times I have been drunk I was in Ukraine or Russia.  Hmmm...

Come on Sculpto, I know you didn't mean to say this.   :ohbrother:

[Sculpto]

Come on Sculpto, I know you didn't mean to say this.   :ohbrother:

LOL.. nope its the truth.. but I also hold my booze really well.. I was not a wobbly walkin, speech slurrin, loud mouthed stupid American.  In fact.. my GF was rather impressed that I could drink with her.. I just cant deal with beer.. I must have an allergy to the hops or something... but Vodka or Tequilla.. NP as long as I moderate and have food.  I did as the Russians did.. we drank a lot and had fun but no one got falling down wasted.

[GoodOlBoy]

Sculpto, a little  but have you been invited to a Russian wedding yet?

There is a little bit of everything there. Drinking, fighting, more drinking, more fighting... etc. etc. etc.   :whirling:


GOB

[SANDRO43]

In SF where smoking tabac is now illegal almost everywhere except in your own car or house no one will hassle you for smoking a joint pretty much anywhere.. as long as you have your card.

So a smoker like me in SF would have to get that card and pretend he's having a joint, to enjoy a simple cigarette in the open ?

[Faux Pas]

So a smoker like me in SF would have to get that card and pretend he's having a joint, to enjoy a simple cigarette in the open ?

You couldn't pretend. The smoking nazis will swarm you like flies on poop 

[Tamara]

Very interesting discussion.  I am not going to make any judgments, we all make our own choices.  However, I will share an experience which was shocking to me and many of my co-workers.  I have worked on a number of petrochemical projects, when the plants in Tobolsk, Tomsk and Salavat were being revamped with the goal to increase capacity.  Russians hired American company as Project Management Contractor, so teams of American specialists would fly for site visits, P&IDs review, construction, etc.  Each time we would fly to the plant, we would have safety orientation, which lasted for 10 minutes, out of which 10 minutes were warnings not to steal and consume methanol.  Nothing about safety itself!  Safety orientation would end signing the paper we were informed stealing methanol would be illegal.  And then we go to industrially hazardous areas wearing brought from US personal protective equipment and observing Russian plant employees without hard hats, no steel toed shoes, etc.  On a later stage in the design to make sure plant has control over methanol, they would install CCTV there. 

[groovlstk]

One angle that has not been mentioned is that outside of the fact that they share a language and culture, many RW prefer RM because they view western guys as too effeminate.

Now I don't mean to drag this discussion back to talk of alcoholism, domestic violence, etc. Suffice it to say if you use dating sites like missingheart.ru, which I did before I found my wife, you'll see that there are thousands of RW already in the US who are simply not interested in dating American men. My wife has many single RW friends who feel the same way. Since this thread came up a few weeks ago, I made it my business during our many holiday get-togethers at home, bars, and banyas to broach this subject w/our female Russian friends. After plenty of vodka and champanski, of course.

The general consensus seems to be that American guys are really nice, very reliable, and have a wonder and optimism about life that is really refreshing and rarely found in RM. However, they lack a certain edge that RM have, making AM great as friends but inadequate when it comes to romance and sex. (And again, remember that this is the opinion of a few women, not all, yet they are good looking enough to date whomever they please and experienced enough to know what they prefer.) My wife gave me a perfect example: she works as a kitchen and bathroom designer, so she spends a lot of time dealing with contractors and laborers. These men predictably try to act very macho around her, spending a lot of time joking, flexing, and boasting. As they've come to know my wife, they've seen how upfront she is and that she has no qualms about going back to her clients when there is a problem or someone screws up an estimate. (Those married to a RW are probably nodding their heads, knowing how direct they can be.) So in the last year these same macho guys now go to my wife when it's time to deliver bad news to a client, even when it's their responsibility or their project manager's responsibility. My wife doesn't hesitate to help them out yet when she's home at night she can't help but laugh at how all these big, macho guys pretend like they're Tarzan yet are too cowardly to tell their clients they ordered the wrong tiles. More than once she's commented that the RM she worked with in Moscow would never act this way - some were lousy workers, some were jerks, some were exceptional, yet none would act like a wuss and ask a woman to do his job for him.

Now, I know there are a lot of guys who look to Russia and Ukraine because they haven't had much luck w/American women. It would be great to believe the marriage agency BS that there's a land out there where all the women will love a guy simply because he's honest, sincere, and will treat his gf/fiancee/wife like a princess. The sad fact is that romantic and sexual attraction are much more complex than that.

[Sculpto]

So a smoker like me in SF would have to get that card and pretend he's having a joint, to enjoy a simple cigarette in the open ?

lol not exactly Sandro.. we have some "speak easy" type places that are underground and anything goes... for more conventional venues people end up outside smoking.. kind of stinks.. pay to go to a club and hten have to go on the street to smoke.. its stupid..

[Diplomacy]

Groov:

I have had several conversations about the "acting like Boys" also.  I think the comments about your wife and friends are right on.  I always thought when I heard that comment it meant acting immature.  Which is true but not in the way I was thinking.

Yes, I had some rather tough discussions.  I was always respectful until I was shown disrespect.  Now my Russian is not very good but standing up and pretending to spit may not be classy, but it got the point across. 

Mind you it was not in dating scenario, but I understand what was meant now.  It is called having a backbone and standing up for what you believe in.  Having respect for yourself also.  Just do not make yourself a Martyr lol.

Now they may not give up on the Macho Act, but their bark is much louder than their bite.  The one thing I know about a bear is act bigger than it and try to get it to back down.  I would have knocked somebodies teeth out though if it came down to it.  It never did and it was isolated.

A strong man will stand up for his woman and family.  Do not send a woman to do what you need to do yourself.  See a strong man is a relative term.  Yes, I believe a strong man does take care of his family, not leave his children and never care for them.  A strong man treats his mate with respect and other people also.

Reality is respect is earned and not just given.  If it goes to the point you are disrespected and just take it.  I think you are pretty much screwed in the eyes of a FSU woman's definition of a strong man.  I think the WM and the FSUW are working on very different definitions of a strong man a lot of the time.

[groovlstk]

I think the WM and the FSUW are working on very different definitions of a strong man a lot of the time.

I absolutely agree with this. One of the things I believe a lot of new guys screw up is that when they hear "Russian women love strong men" they mistakenly think it means they want to be bossed around and dominated. This attracts a sordid element of sorry males who are able to get away with such behavior, at least in the short term until his wife achieves enough independence to leave him in the dust. To the RW that I know, a strong man is one who doesn't react emotionally to minor setbacks, doesn't get flustered by domestic issues, and doesn't whine when things don't go his way.

[Gator]

To the RW that I know, a strong man is one who doesn't react emotionally to minor setbacks, doesn't get flustered by domestic issues, and doesn't whine when things don't go his way.

Good points!  To those three I would add a strong man is always decisive, especially in difficult times.  He must also be a dependable man such that in combination with his strength, he creates a sense of stability and security.  Such a man instills confidence in his RW that everything will be all right - important considering that many RW have lived in troubled times and have not had the freedom of AW to live independently.

[GoodOlBoy]

....a strong man is always decisive, especially in difficult times.  He must also be a dependable man such that in combination with his strength, he creates a sense of stability and security.  Such a man instills confidence in his RW that everything will be all right.....

If any NEWBIES read this PAY ATTENTION to what Gator just said.

Gator you are SPOT-ON about this.

GOB

[Diplomacy]

Yes Gator exactly.

I believe if you take the definition many WM believe the strong man to be and then the definition that the FSUW believe it to be and combine them.  I believe then you are well on your way to a good match IMO.

I strive to be that person by both definitions in life.  This is not new for me though, it was rather many decades of self improvement.  It is often not easy to do the right thing.  

[Misha]

Misha has experience with alcoholic relatives and sees alcohol abuse as the root of all evil. 

And we have Scott who sees Ukraine and the FSU through rose colored glasses. How does it go, see no evil, hear no evil.... 

[ScottinCrimea]

And we have Scott who sees Ukraine and the FSU through rose colored glasses. How does it go, see no evil, hear no evil.... 

Apparently you don't read all my posts.   

[Misha]

Apparently you don't read all my posts.   

I do. Sadly, I have  become somewhat addicted to this forum LOL. I have notice a penchant for you to overlook many of the darker sides of the FSU. I do remember where you were arguing how safe it was in Ukraine yet overlooked to mention your own little "incident." You do have a tendency to be selective in your observations. 

[ScottinCrimea]

I do. Sadly, I have  become somewhat addicted to this forum LOL. I have notice a penchant for you to overlook many of the darker sides of the FSU. I do remember where you were arguing how safe it was in Ukraine yet overlooked to mention your own little "incident." You do have a tendency to be selective in your observations. 

Misha, the insults and the clue bat are all unnecessary.  I am entitled to my views as are you.  If I choose to answer with a positive side those posts who tend to the more negative, in an effort to keep things on an even keel, why is that a problem with you.  I see no one condemning anyone for looking at the FSU with only dark colored glasses.  Some here are unable to say one good thing and yet they are not challenged. What is your point in trying to provoke a disagreement here?

[Misha]

Misha, the insults and the clue bat are all unnecessary.  I am entitled to my views as are you. What is your point in trying to provoke a disagreement here?

I found your remark condescending. Yes, I am speaking from experience, but I do not try to cover up the damage alcohol does.

[ScottinCrimea]

The remark was meant partially tongue in cheek and I apologize if it offended.  Maybe better next time to throw me out a PM to clarify my intent rather than just lash back and initiate an off-topic sugfest?