Higher Education and the Views of FSU on Degrees obtained

[SANDRO43]

Very interesting topic to discuss, though it touches on a host of different aspects .

Most countries are ahead of USA students prior to college based on test scores.

I related some time ago how the son of a South African friend of mine here obtained a Rotary Club scholarship for a year in a US high school: he enjoyed himself immensely, had very little to study in order to keep up, but had to scramble hard back at his home high school to recover his pace .

 After college, most students from USA universities are ahead of the World. So what happens? Do foreign students burnout, poor universities overseas, or do USA students do better as they had a more balanced childhood.

I don't think the last point has much bearing on the average European situation. See also below.

I have no clue on why USA students make a huge jump in learning compared to rest of World. But it happens. And foreign students flock to the USA colleges.

I'd say because US higher education is more specialised, which is both good and bad IMHO. I'll give you three apparently unrelated examples:
1. We have 3 types of high school here: Lyceums (Scientific & Classical) and Technical Institutes. I attended the latter for Industrial Chemistry, and considered following it up with the related university studies (4-5 years), but didn't (got an MA in Foreign Languages & Literatures much later). What I gathered from fellow schoolmates who did was: they were hot in the first 2 years, then were later surpassed by students from Classical Lyceums who had studied Latin, Greek and philosophy but NO scientific subjects . Their mental 'flexibility' was apparently more productive even in the technical/scientific area.
2. In my 15 years as an IBM Instructor, I soon learned that if what I taught was, say, 10, I had to know 15 because the questions from my 'students' were NEVER restricted to the specific outline of any given course. Contrast the attitude of my US colleagues: in similar situations, their answer was almost invariably a blunt "Sorry, that's not in this course agenda."
3. Traditionally, banks here always hired people with economic studies behind them. These past 10 years or so they changed tack: the daughter of another friend graduated cum laude in 'Letters & Philosophy' and has made a lightning career in the HR dept. of a major bank.

But a question. Do people who go to Europe or Asia from USA do they have to go back to college? Or is their education good enough.

I'd venture it varies depending on location and a host of other factors, language included.

[kievstar]

Good points Sandro.  I know IBM is a big company - but did you ever know a husband and wife at IBM named Clinton (Beverly and Dan).  They lived in Singapore for awhile, Dallas Texas, and other areas.  My brother married their daughter.  They were there about 30 years each and close to your age. 

Olga H, I had cancer in my neck in 1980's and have 3 fused vertebrae and allergic to gas for surgery.  When I woke up with a concussion in November I thought I was paralyzed for awhile as I was extra dizzy, sick from gas, and on heavy medical for disc surgery of L5-S1 region.  Than mother told me what happened.  But I have to go for another MRI as looks like the fall damaged something else in my back.  I will not sue the hospital.  They made a mistake but it was an accident.  However my doctor who did surgery keeps telling me to sue the hospital.  However,  I did fly to Ukraine a week later to propose to my wife in Kiev.   Had a very hard time getting up after being on one knee.  She told me now that she only said yes because I was hurting my back on one knee. So maybe the fall helped me out. 

[ECOCKS]

ECOCKS, I studied 41 subjects at the Academy during 5 years. In general about 4500 academic hours - postal tuition. The full-time tuition is 8000+ hours.  We had lectures, seminars and plus our students home work (essays, projects and so on, Sundays in libraries) and of course practice test with invited commission.

For example

Theatrical production ( all theatrical subjects) - 2312 hours, Culturology - 106 hours, Philosophy - 140 hours, Fundamentals of Economics and Region Economics  - 106 hours, General psychology, Social psychology, Psychology of Age and Psychology of Personality  - 296 hours, General Pedagogics, Social Pedagogics, School Pedagogis and Methodology of professional disciplines   -  234 hours, History of Arts and Folk Arts - 140 hours, Old Slavic, Russian and Foreign Literature - 180 hours, History of Siberian Culture - 74 hours, Theosophy - 56 hours, History of Russia - 140 hours, Ethics and Aesthetics - 70 hours and other subjects. And all that subjects are related to my profession.



 

Great!

[ECOCKS]

Sandro:

I see the opposite. The business and law students repeatedly indicate there are no courses in their curriculum for sciences, drama, history, etc. and only a few indicated that they took a couple of writing courses. Electives are encouraged to be in the major field of study, particularly if your favorite professor is teaching the course.

Course content is often interesting as well.  A couple of years ago one of my students was noticeably worried as she was preparing to leave class and go to her next class. I asked what the problem was and she replied that she apparently forgot her calculator and wasn't sure what she would do for her next class. When asked what the class was she replied Industrial Relations. Why would you need a calculator for an Industrial Relations class? She showed me her notes and it was immediately apparent that the teacher was teaching a combination of Labor Economics wrapped into political systems. I double-checked the course description and asked the Dean who replied that instructors teach what they want to teach.....

As for HR, that entire field is about where the western concept was in the 70's. That is, largely concerned with provisioning staff in response to turnover, record-keeping and (increasingly) benefits administration. HR degrees are still rare with few companies appearing to view this as a serious issue. Very often the HR department is headed by a female (woman's work seems to be their viewpoint IMO) almost entirely staffed by females with the title of recruiting manager. Managing turnover and records is their focus with little effort at interviewing, industrial psychology, ethics, etc.

[SANDRO43]

I know IBM is a big company - but did you ever know a husband and wife at IBM named Clinton (Beverly and Dan).  They lived in Singapore for awhile, Dallas Texas, and other areas. My brother married their daughter.  They were there about 30 years each and close to your age.

KS, I got to know quite a few non-Italian IBMers over the years, but not the Clintons you mention. As for IBM, I understand they slimmed down quite a bit: here we used to be 12,000, I read recently that they are down to 6,000 .

With hindsight, I realised that we never had it so good as when, up to about 1980, all our systems were for rental - as Xerox did with their photocopiers. Given our rock-solid customer base, this meant that the company knew beforehand very accurately what revenue could be expected year after year, and adjust all their plans and policies - investments, salaries, etc. - accordingly .

[SANDRO43]

Sandro:I see the opposite. The business and law students repeatedly indicate there are no courses in their curriculum for sciences, drama, history, etc. and only a few indicated that they took a couple of writing courses.

Weren't they supposed to learn writing a little before Uni ?

Seriously, this is a complaint in many of our Unis, too: new students that do not seem to have a decent grasp of written Italian (grammar, syntax and in many cases spelling, too ). IIRC, starting in the late 1960s in the US, the consensus was that life should be made easier for students, and this new approach also arrived in Europe over time. The apex of absurdity was reached when in some public Unis the students demanded, and obtained, things like group exams and 'political' grades (maximum grades for everybody regardless, as a matter of 'social justice').

My secondary education was over before that time, and I really had to study hard then to keep up: the school year was subdivided into 3 trimesters (quarters), each ending with a report card, and we were used to expect an announced written test monthly in some subjects and at least one surprise oral test in EACH of them, if not two if the first one had not gone well, to accumulate score for the card. Therefore, our only possible survival strategy was to study like hell because one could not know exactly when to expect a teacher's 'ambush' , although the longer one went without one, the more likely it became.

Hard going, but in a way a rudimentary and unplanned preparation for the surprises of adult life: it taught us to 'roll with the punches' at least, not being able to hit back then but very feebly/unobtrusively .

I just remembered a particular teacher of Natural Sciences, an old spinster in her late sixties, close to retirement and with fingers gnarled by arthritis. She would summon one of us for questioning by pointing her curvy index finger and rasping "You!!" - she could not remember our names. This would prompt the 3-4 of us in her estimated trajectory to rise from our seats and ask "I, Madam?" It took at least 5 minutes before she could straighten the matter out .

[ECOCKS]

Not complaining, simply commenting on observations.

Of course, I have to read their writing in English which certainly impacts their style yet it seems they lack organizational skills and their ability to persuade/justify is often summed up by "just because I am the boss or specialist and I said so" types of statements.

Many seem bewildered at the expectation(s) of international businesses and, as noted in a few other posts, the frustration their employers have with the retraining necessary for FSU hires. As a side note they often appear indignant that they will be expected to continue their development through additional training which they find insulting and inconvenient. Many return from interviews with westerners commenting that the breadth and depth of questions are too difficult and unrealistic since they don't have enough info (they believe) to answer the questions posed.

I recall one student who was shocked when asked in an interview to explain the inherent challenges with free trade/economic zones and why so many end in failure. He meandered around the subject with a few vague comments as to organizing taxation standards and then stated that they often were just too difficult to administer. Maybe 6 sentences total. The interviewer again asked him with a bit more detail in the question trying to help him understand what he wanted and again got a very vague answer. The interviewer commented afterward that his suspicion was the student had no idea about the subject matter and had probably paid someone to write the research paper on the subject which was claimed to have won an oblast-level gold medal in economics. The student expressed his frustration afterward (he knew he screwed up) by saying that he couldn't believe the interviewer wanted that level of detail because he (the interviewer) obviously wouldn't have understood such a complicated issue. I reminded him the interviewer had a Ph.D. in Economics and he said he knew that but the man was not a specialist in Free Trade Zones so he would not have been able to understand it.

While anecdotal, stories like this seem to illustrate that they are not conversant in the areas of their "specializations" and often fail in the implementation/justification stage of presentation. Their reactions and responses to case studies (different method of approach) often reflect this bewildered thrashing about, ending with "because I said so" or "just fire them all" generalizations.

Addiitonally, there remains the obvious challenge that the students are transitioning languages and being evaluated by an interviewer/teacher from a diffferent cultural perspective. Still, this is the arena they wish to participate in and meeting the requirements/expectations of international standards in their educational process is their responsibility.

[ECOCKS]

With regard to Kievstar's remakes about accounting and financial knowledge.

There is little understanding of the concept of "professional" accountants. Accountants count! That's all. They are to count money, file forms and remain isolated from the remainder of employees!

As for financial expertise, the same devil rises up.

For instance, you present debt ratios. They see how to compute leverage, fine. Now why is this crazy instructor trying to get us to compare company one with company two? If company one has less debt, that is better so company two is stupid, why doesn't he shut up and move on? If East Europeans were running McDonald's, they would quit selling hamburgers and become a real estate company.....

Analysis, comparison, judgment, these skillsets are still evolving and struggling for understanding in an area in transition. For now, value is the understood concept. Operational income, internal rate of return, incremental profit, diminshing returns, all these things just make our head hurt!

Then there was the day I discussed whether they would rather be financial directors at $50K per year or own a patent on an adult diaper. They couldn't believe the guy I know with the patent is a millionaire and retired in his early 40's. The Post-It Notes guy, the inventors of Silly Putty and Pet Rocks, FedEx and Quest startups, all impossible urban legends. It's evolution in eyewitness time lapse action.

[kievstar]

Ecocks, you are wrong about accountants and finance.  You really have no idea what they do.  What do you do for work? 

[Shadow]

Actually he is right. Accountants just sit and count money. If the balance sheet left and right is equal they go home.
The guys he describes have never used an accountant except to tell them how much money they had. 

[kievstar]

 

[ECOCKS]

Ecocks, you are wrong about accountants and finance.  You really have no idea what they do.  What do you do for work? 

I suspect you are missing that I am referring to the FSU view of accounting and chose to take my remark as concerning the entire field of accounting. So yes, I understand what "real" accountants do as opposed to what is generally seen and done in Ukraine.

I teach business at a Ukrainian University and work with corporate clients, both international and locally owned, including one of the Big 4. They all comment that accountants have to be retrained to understand both the concept of applying accounting theory interactively with the company as well as the importance of being a professional in their chosen field. The concensus seems to be that FSU accountants are mostly jacked-up bookkeepers who know which forms to send in to which offices. The closest they get to planning is writing the cash-flow requirements on a piece of paper and going to ask their boss if there is any way that much will be in the bank or vrought to the office where they will stuff envelopes for the employees. Most "tax accountants" are lawyers rather than accountants since they are still figuring out the needs for legislation, regulatory development, professional codes and standards-based systems.

As for UA finance majors, they suffer from the same limitations of not understanding analytical methodology (or even the need for analysis). Their view of learning finance is show them the formula to calculate ROI, ROA and ROE and they are done. Actually planning a strategy on how to change their company's balance sheet positioning meets with blank stares, that is the owners job, they are merely going to report what the formulas tell them.

Don't get me started on Managerial Accounting functionality. Operating income? Internal return? Metrics? Too much work man!

Evolution in progress. It is only natural, this sort of stuff (proactive rather than reactive planning) is still new to them.