Law's Ukraine Trip Report

[topofthekey]

Law,

I enjoyed your trip report and agree with your assessment. It was mission accomplished for you. I'm sure you've read trip reports and of course they tend to get derailed on most occasions (I've never posted one myself). This board is great for seeking advice, but most importantly you seem like a rational guy that knows what to take and what to leave.

You of course don't need to share what you spent on the trip, but I do want to encourage you (and I'm sure you will) to budget trips. I won't comment on AFA specifically (and I'm glad you had fun), but my views on agencies are this. I was in a city that didn't have any, but if I were to use one it would be on a pay per meeting basis (they get paid if the girl shows up). Just what I would do.

As for my costs. I just priced tickets the other day. I believe I was looking at something like 700-1200 roundtrip depending on where I wanted to go. I generally budget between 60 to 110 for a hotel room as well per night. So for 10 nights a hotel and tickets might run me 1300 to 1700. I never spent 100 bucks on a meal either and ate at some great places (like Hell Hunt in Tallinn which I love). In fact I could probably buy and do whatever my heart desires and spend as little as $2000 depending on expenses of course. But even spending $2500 is fine.

If you find someone you are really into and spend some $$$ for small gifts for family and friends the budget might go up. In general I don't consider myself a cheap guy (I'll pay for a girl's taxi, her meal, the night out, etc), but I just don't feel comfortable dumping cash in a bottomless pit considering how many trips it takes to accomplish what you desire. If I go over budget so be it but just in general spending $2000 to $3000 on trip allows you to take more trips than if you spend 2 or 3 times as much.

English can be a barrier. I'm 25 so I met women out and about and most spoke at least some english (I was in Estonia). I encourage you to look at some other countries where you might run into more girls that are speaking or know some english. Tallinn is a great place for that (I can personally attest to that), but I think Romania and Bulgaria might be great places as well (places on my radar).

I'm glad you had fun and I sure had a bunch of fun myself. I agree with the guys about not waiting 18 months, but being these last few months have really been a kick in the teeth to the economy (and being financially responsible is very important). We can only do what our budget allows.

I can only read into your trip report, but the last girl you met (Tanya) seemed very interesting. Too bad you didn't get to spend some more time with her. Maybe next time.

[Sculpto]

One of the things I've noticed yet haven't seen mentioned on any of the boards is that there is a HUGE difference between the young black men you see living in Moscow and Kiev (the great majority of which are exchange students from Africa) and African American men like Law. African guys in the FSU are tiny, slim to the point where they look malnourished, and have a sort of beaten-down, hangdog look. A confident, well-dressed African American man who speaks English w/out an accent is a slightly different prospect. Regardless, no doubt Law faces an uphill battle but if he knows the risks going in, it's his decision as a man to pursue his goals.

Groov.. I would respectfully disagree with your comments about African men in the FSU.  I spent a month hanging around the Nigerian community in Donetsk and those guys were none of what you stated.  They were in fact well dressed, cultured and having the time of their lives getting far too easy sex with way too many pretty "white girls".  They were however very scared about the skinheads and believed they were constantly being discriminated against by RM.  That said.. an educated, religious and gentlemanly African American like Law should have something of an advantage over the native Africans in the FSU because he should be seen as abetter prospect.  BTW.. about three months ago I met a couple here at work.. she was Russian and he was a Black man from Oakland.  So, it is not impossible.. however.. she was not a very young girl and he appeared to be well healed.

[ScottinCrimea]

I would have to agree with groov's assessment.  MOST of the African men I saw were physically just as he describes.

[Sculpto]

I would have to agree with groov's assessment.  MOST of the African men I saw were physically just as he describes.

The difference might be that you guys are observing an individual on the street where I was hanging around with a group daily and being introduced to Nigerians who were well established with PHDs and a variety of businesses...

[ScottinCrimea]

The difference might be that you guys are observing an individual on the street where I was hanging around with a group daily and being introduced to Nigerians who were well established with PHDs and a variety of businesses...

It also could be that I was spending time hanging around the medical university.  Really, in Simferopol I saw no blacks who were businessmen or any who were living there long term.  The best physical specimens I saw were those who were dressed in African tribal garb near the beach who were charging to have pictures taken with them.

I think you and I experienced blacks in Ukraine at the extreme opposite ends of the spectrum.

[groovlstk]

The difference might be that you guys are observing an individual on the street where I was hanging around with a group daily and being introduced to Nigerians who were well established with PHDs and a variety of businesses...

I'd imagine that back PhDs and entrepreneurs in the FSU are an extremely tiny minority.

I found it very easy to meet African students in the FSU, all you need to do is speak English and they'll flock to you (whether you like it or not). Most I met were slight and wearing cheap colorful print shirts and slacks that were about 5 sizes too big - and no, they weren't making a fashion statement  - or were trying to raise $$ by posing for photos wearing animal skins and carrying homemade spears.

[Sculpto]

I'd imagine that back PhDs and entrepreneurs in the FSU are an extremely tiny minority.

I found it very easy to meet African students in the FSU, all you need to do is speak English and they'll flock to you (whether you like it or not). Most I met were slight and wearing cheap colorful print shirts and slacks that were about 5 sizes too big - and no, they weren't making a fashion statement  - or were trying to raise $$ by posing for photos wearing animal skins and carrying homemade spears.

Maybe the "colony" in Donetsk was more well established.  They are nothing like what you describe. 

[SilverBUllet]

Thanks, I'm glad you like it so far.

There were about 15 or 20 guys. Some made their own arrangements and dropped in during the trip. It was a good group. Being able to share notes and swap stories was a real treat. As you can imagine the trip was a little different for everyone.

Thanks for a very extensive tour report, the question is what's next? Do you still stay in touch with some? Do you know if any of the other men started the fiance visa process for someone they met during the trip? I understand AFA also has some immigration laywers at hand to assist with the paperwork? I have heard in the past that for a tour group like this it is not unusual for 10% to 20% to already start a fiance visa while on the trip? Did you consider Moldova, Belarus or Russia as alternative tour destinations? Sorry for all the questions but hope you don't mind sharing your experience.   

[Law]

Thanks for a very extensive tour report, the question is what's next? Do you still stay in touch with some? Do you know if any of the other men started the fiance visa process for someone they met during the trip? I understand AFA also has some immigration laywers at hand to assist with the paperwork? I have heard in the past that for a tour group like this it is not unusual for 10% to 20% to already start a fiance visa while on the trip? Did you consider Moldova, Belarus or Russia as alternative tour destinations? Sorry for all the questions but hope you don't mind sharing your experience.   

Hello Silver Bullet..
Thanks for taking the time to read my long o'l report. I'm glad you made it to the end and with questions too!

What's Next?- It came down to four really wonderful ladies at the end. One speaks English, and the other 3 required interpreters for all of our time together. As I go about growing my friendships and guiding them into 'something more', naturally the language issue emerges. I've begun a thread soliciting the opinions about 'Dating Non-English Speakers' and it seems like I'll be saving myself (and my future soulmate) a lot of frustration and tears if I zero in on someone who can at least communicate in English. Unfortunately this more or less means starting over...

Fiance Visas- I've heard that a handful of guys got engaged. I was a bit surprised, but it turns out to be true. And yes, AFA is a one stop shop so, yeah, they have EVERYTHING you need to seal the deal, Immigration lawyers too. Here's one VERY LUCKY fellow.


Some guys had a very hard time meeting ladies on the tour and could barely get one follow up date. This guy didn't have that problem!

As you know from my report my main goal was to checkout how well international dating would work out for me and visit a girl I had been writing to for a while, so I didn't really expect to propose to anyone by the end of that trip.

Belarus, Moldova, Russia- I've never heard of Belarus or Moldova (before September 08). I thought about other places, but Russia quickly fell off of my list. The incidents about hate crimes is too well reported for me to feel safe traveling alone there.

I hope that helps

-L

[Mir]

Hate crimes are possible in some parts of Ukraine as well.
As such a lot more men now go to Ukraine so the competition will be more fierce. Besides this army of bride hunters has sprouted a lot more agencies and professional dates in Ukraine.

[SilverBUllet]

Law, There are some really beautiful women in Latin and South America too. Colombia, Venezuela and not to forget Brazil. Rio de Janeiro is an amazing place with probably the most beutiful women in the world, at least from what I could tell visiting. SB

[Mark Davis]

Law, There are some really beautiful women in Latin and South America too. Colombia, Venezuela and not to forget Brazil. Rio de Janeiro is an amazing place with probably the most beutiful women in the world, at least from what I could tell visiting. SB

Law:

I can certainly vouch for both Brazil and Costa Rica.  Between the two I've dated more than 20 wonderful ladies over a half dozen trips.  They have a carefree demeanor that is endearing and sensuous.  But they typically have fewer college educated women than the FSU - if that matters to you.

Personally, I think the FSU is the best of all worlds, but we're talking small differenciations among the finest women in the world.  I'm glad for my choice, but there was one i Brazil I would also have been happy with.

I think your on track and I look forward to hearing your next report on your next trip - wherever it may be.

Your bro, Mark

[SilverBUllet]

Law,
First of all your report from Ukraine is very entertaining and an eyeopener for others to read. But one thing that strikes me is that all the photos of the ladies you have posted, even with glamour shots from agency sites compared to the "in person" shots when you met them, is not what a gentleman would have done. Don't you find this to be disrespectful to the ladies? I am sure they are not aware of that you have placed their photos like trophys from your trip all over cyberspace? Not so much of a gentleman would do that and by doing so you demonstrate that you don't think so much about others, only about yourself. How do you think their impression of you were during your trip? Meeting lady after lady, touring the country? Just like a shopping trip. How do you think the "merchandise" feel about such a person? Perhaps the first step could be to start thinking a little bit more about others and not yourself all the time. SB   

[SilverBUllet]

  ???

[groovlstk]

But one thing that strikes me is that all the photos of the ladies you have posted, even with glamour shots from agency sites compared to the "in person" shots when you met them, is not what a gentleman would have done.

As much as we all love photos and photos women in TRs do a great deal in enhancing TRs, I'd have to agree here.

If you look back a few years in the archives, you'll see a TR from a very decent RWD member who was tarred and feathered by RW from another forum for posting photos of his dates. Even though his intentions were good and he wrote very respectfully of all the women he met, enough RW on this forum-that-shall-be-nameless took the opportunity to make an object lesson out of something they saw as disrespectful.   

[SilverBUllet]

As much as we all love photos and photos women in TRs do a great deal in enhancing TRs, I'd have to agree here.

If you look back a few years in the archives, you'll see a TR from a very decent RWD member who was tarred and feathered by RW from another forum for posting photos of his dates. Even though his intentions were good and he wrote very respectfully of all the women he met, enough RW on this forum-that-shall-be-nameless took the opportunity to make an object lesson out of something they saw as disrespectful.   

Couldn't agree with you more and I am surprised that this thread has been going on for so long and that no one has raised this objection until now? No one else having a problem with Law?  It is VERY disrespectful and immature what Law has done. He is just too egocentric, not thinking of other people's feelings at all. I am sure all his dates will be very upset if they knew what he has done. Perhaps I should translate it all to Russian and post it as a warning to Russian and Ukrainian women on a Ukrainian site instead. Would be fun, a new topic Americans with cameras who don't know how to behave and with not so sincere agendas after all, watch out!    Perhaps I already did, so start searching in Russian 

[GoodOlBoy]

Couldn't agree with you more and I am surprised that this thread has been going on for so long and that no one has raised this objection until now? No one else having a problem with Law?  It is VERY disrespectful and immature what Law has done. He is just too egocentric, not thinking of other people's feelings at all. I am sure all his dates will be very upset if they knew what he has done. Perhaps I should translate it all to Russian and post it as a warning to Russian and Ukrainian women on a Ukrainian site instead. Would be fun, a new topic Americans with cameras who don't know how to behave and with not so sincere agendas after all, watch out!    Perhaps I already did, so start searching in Russian 

TROLL..... :evil:


GOB

[SilverBUllet]

Couldn't agree with you more and I am surprised that this thread has been going on for so long and that no one has raised this objection until now? No one else having a problem with Law?  It is VERY disrespectful and immature what Law has done. He is just too egocentric, not thinking of other people's feelings at all. I am sure all his dates will be very upset if they knew what he has done. Perhaps I should translate it all to Russian and post it as a warning to Russian and Ukrainian women on a Ukrainian site instead. Would be fun, a new topic Americans with cameras who don't know how to behave and with not so sincere agendas after all, watch out!    Perhaps I already did, so start searching in Russian It is fair to turn the table around in this case.  

[groovlstk]

Couldn't agree with you more and I am surprised that this thread has been going on for so long and that no one has raised this objection until now? No one else having a problem with Law?  It is VERY disrespectful and immature what Law has done. He is just too egocentric, not thinking of other people's feelings at all. I am sure all his dates will be very upset if they knew what he has done. Perhaps I should translate it all to Russian and post it as a warning to Russian and Ukrainian women on a Ukrainian site instead. Would be fun, a new topic Americans with cameras who don't know how to behave and with not so sincere agendas after all, watch out!    Perhaps I already did, so start searching in Russian 

I agree it's disrespectful but Law seems like a decent man. The guys who deserve to be vilified are the sex tourists and keyboard romeos. I remember back to my first trip and the euphoria I felt when documenting it here on RWD, it's not always easy to resist the impulse to give your readers what they desire (i.e., lots of photos of beautiful women). At the same time it's easy to get into a rhythm and forget you're putting this information out there for anyone to see it rather than telling a story to your guy friends over a few beers.

[GoodOlBoy]

... The guys who deserve to be vilified are the sex tourists and keyboard romeos.

Maybe Porno Pike a.k.a."Albert" or Ambach qualify for this category?


GOB

[SilverBUllet]

I agree it's disrespectful but Law seems like a decent man. The guys who deserve to be vilified are the sex tourists and keyboard romeos. I remember back to my first trip and the euphoria I felt when documenting it here on RWD, it's not always easy to resist the impulse to give your readers what they desire (i.e., lots of photos of beautiful women). At the same time it's easy to get into a rhythm and forget you're putting this information out there for anyone to see it rather than telling a story to your guy friends over a few beers.

He might be a nice enough guy as long as he is in the focus and it is all about him. What through me off was his comparision between the ladies' agency photos and the real life photos he took to see how closely they matched. He was on a shopping trip and wanted to make sure the advertisement was correct. I think he needs to grow up and start becoming more sensitive to other people. I found the story interesting but not with all the photos of the ladies posted. They all deserve better. SB

[Faux Pas]

Couldn't agree with you more and I am surprised that this thread has been going on for so long and that no one has raised this objection until now? No one else having a problem with Law?  ::)It is VERY disrespectful and immature what Law has done. He is just too egocentric, not thinking of other people's feelings at all. I am sure all his dates will be very upset if they knew what he has done. Perhaps I should translate it all to Russian and post it as a warning to Russian and Ukrainian women on a Ukrainian site instead. Would be fun, a new topic Americans with cameras who don't know how to behave and with not so sincere agendas after all, watch out!    Perhaps I already did, so start searching in Russian 

Bullshat! You don't have a clue what his dates might be thinking unless you were one. Were you? Law has been extremely respectful towards his dates in the pictures and his TR. Law has done nothing wrong in posting his TR with photos. Your holier than thou attitude is sickening. They are his pictures and he is free to use them as he wishes. It is neither unethical or illegal. This is a forum on the internet and the ladies freely posed.

You are free to translate and do as you choose. I would not doubt you already have as it is evident from your post that sh!t stirring is your only objective.

I apologize to Law for having to put up with this kind of BS on his TR thread.

[ECOCKS]

Interesting situation.

These TR's with photos are certainly more informative and enjoyable than those without.  However, this IS a public bulletin board and, from an ethical viewpoint should make each of us pause and consider a moment or two.  It is one thing to put up a picture or two showing examples of the "good time I had on my trip" but confirming with the people pictured that they have no objection is the right thing to do.

And it cuts both ways.  Some of the guys on the trip could be cheating on their wives, dodging warrants or even, as Law alludes to in a joking manner, be a bit embarassed about being on the trip in the first place. They may not appreciate it.

That said, I think that the poster is responsible to the individuals he posts for his actions.  It is up to the Admin/Owner of the board to set a posting policy he is comfortable with and accepts responsibility for.

So my feeling is that Admin is ultimately responsible for pictorial and editorial content policies on the board and individual members are responsible for any ethical or copyright situations created by the posting of pictures, naming of names, description of actions, etc.

[topofthekey]

Let me get into a brief story here. In Tallinn many of the locals are not big fans of the "stripper/paid girl" scene that is picking up. Hotel managers certainly don't like loud brits strolling into their hotels in the middle of the night drunk and yelling to buddies about all the fun they had with these ladies. It can transform that hotel and even the entire town into a place families don't want to vacation... which the hotel manager and even the locals are highly cogisant of.

My wingman and I did take pictures of the girls alone and with ourselves. A couple of them did want to make sure that is was just for our personal collection. Meaning they didn't want them ending up on the internet and possibly looking like something they were not. Law seems like a low key guy that probably doesn't want to announce to the world (his employer, co workers etc) that he is looking for a significant other overseas. Or more likely he doesn't want them to confuse his search with their warped view of international dating (aka mail order bride industry). I can relate with that. All my wingman and I do is tell people we are going on vacation to Estonia or whatever.

I am not posting personal photos of myself to keep a little anonymity. Meaning in the odd cause my employer frequents or casually browses this website he would not know this is well... me. Because of that I just decided to keep all my photos private.

However photos of women taken in ukraine, russia, estonia are whatever are no more private than photos taken in the United States, the UK, or Viet freakin nam for that matter. If you pose for photos they can end up anywhere from TMZ to RWD. Law posted tasteful pictures to outline his trip. Nothing wrong with that. If he took a trip Cancun would it be a problem? What about Reykavik? Orlando?

[GoodOlBoy]

However, this IS a public bulletin board and, from an ethical viewpoint should make each of us pause and consider a moment or two. 

You are only partially correct.

To view any pictures on RWD you have to be a REGISTERED member and you must be logged in.

So the pictures on RWD are for "members only".

The general public, "web surfers" cannot see these pictures.


BTW.... SilverBUllet do us all a favor and crawl back into your troll hole.


GOB