Law's Ukraine Trip Report

[Ridersfan]

Thanks for your opinion but some of the photos were taken from agency sites and most likely subject to copyright protection. Then there were the personal photos taken of the lady in person (not a social setting mind you) to compare them up against the official glamour shots from the agency.

BTW, don't you recognize Penelope Cruz????   

  Agencies would not have copyright protection because the original is not owned by them. It is possible that a woman posts the same photos on several agency sites, should each agency have the right to sue the other for copyright infringement? I find it hard to believe that AFA would object to one of it's clients showing that the ladies that attend the socials are real, especially since Law wrote a very positive account of his experience. The woman has no basis for complaint because she is the one who originally posted them on the internet for anyone to see.

   From what I observed, most of the comparison photos were taken at AFA's social. I don't remember all of the ladies but I do remember this lady http://www.loveme.com/tour/photos/Ukraine-women_12-2008/odessa-women-12-08-0029.html

   And the blond in this photo, http://www.loveme.com/tour/photos/Ukraine-women_12-2008/ukraine-women-12-08-023.html

    I don't remember Law saying that he dated either one personally, so yes they were taken in a social setting.

   I am sure that Ms. Cruz proudly gave her permission to use her likeness to represent your internet persona.

[SilverBUllet]

  Agencies would not have copyright protection because the original is not owned by them. It is possible that a woman posts the same photos on several agency sites, should each agency have the right to sue the other for copyright infringement? I find it hard to believe that AFA would object to one of it's clients showing that the ladies that attend the socials are real, especially since Law wrote a very positive account of his experience. The woman has no basis for complaint because she is the one who originally posted them on the internet for anyone to see.

   From what I observed, most of the comparison photos were taken at AFA's social. I don't remember all of the ladies but I do remember this lady http://www.loveme.com/tour/photos/Ukraine-women_12-2008/odessa-women-12-08-0029.html

   And the blond in this photo, http://www.loveme.com/tour/photos/Ukraine-women_12-2008/ukraine-women-12-08-023.html

    I don't remember Law saying that he dated either one personally, so yes they were taken in a social setting.

   I am sure that Ms. Cruz proudly gave her permission to use her likeness to represent your internet persona.

Ok, I hear you. I just expressed my opinion about what a gentleman in my mind would perhaps do in these matters. I would not have liked to have my potential future wife to be all over the web 

Just one comment if you go to http://www.anastasiaweb.com you will notice that all photos there are watermarked Anastasia property. E.g. AFA. 

[Shadow]

I am wondering why people would get upset if they would find their (wife's) picture 3 years from now on this site.

Because they have lied to their husband about being the first foreigner they ever met ?
Because they told they were virgins who never dated any guy in their lives ?
Because the husband would be shocked that their wives once dated other men ?

If the picture is not used for defamation or scamming, what could be your objection of finding it on which ever site ?

I just do not get it.  :noidea:

[SilverBUllet]

I am wondering why people would get upset if they would find their (wife's) picture 3 years from now on this site.

Because they have lied to their husband about being the first foreigner they ever met ?
Because they told they were virgins who never dated any guy in their lives ?
Because the husband would be shocked that their wives once dated other men ?

If the picture is not used for defamation or scamming, what could be your objection of finding it on which ever site ?

I just do not get it.  :noidea:

Perhaps because we are all different and unique? Perhaps because what is ok for some is not ok for others? Perhaps because people can have differrent sensitivity about the right to privacy? Some like to flaunt it, others to hide it?  BUT most importantly............. did the lady say it was ok to post her photos so that 4,000+ other members could take a close look at her and rate her just based on her looks? What happened to just be a gentleman? I think women may have a different perspective on this than men but most of the users here are men. SB

[ECOCKS]

An earlier posting hit the nail on the head when saying there is no real way to settle this issue.  The reason being that it primarily involves individual ethics more than legal  copyrights.  Ethics are individual decisions, judged by society as to right and wrong.  

Posters should be responsible for what they post, simple enough. Responsible to the people who see their posting and responsible to those who are the subjects of the posting, pictorial or written.  I would not post pictures on an international website without making an honest effort to mention it to those people who were featured.  Undoubtedly there would be people in the background that I didn't mention it to but those, I can live with.

I agree that Law's pictures added to his TR considerably,  They were tasteful, illustrative and had a point connnected to his writing. I am comfortable with leaving it up to him to be satisfied as to whether the gals and guys are comfortable with their portrayal.

With regard to copyrights, few of us are lawyers and I suggest that those concerns are better left to Admin and dealt with through PM or emails as a business rather than a community matter.

Ed

[Shadow]

Perhaps because we are all different and unique? Perhaps because what is ok for some is not ok for others? Perhaps because people can have differrent sensitivity about the right to privacy? Some like to flaunt it, others to hide it?  BUT most importantly............. did the lady say it was ok to post her photos so that 4,000+ other members could take a close look at her and rate her just based on her looks? What happened to just be a gentleman? I think women may have a different perspective on this than men but most of the users here are men. SB

Just because you personally seem to have a problem with this, why impose it to all ?
The ladies were in a public event with about 100+ people, and were happy to be there. The worst that could happen from the pictures is that someone will contact AFA because they want to meet one of them.
Law has been more of a gentleman in all of his actions than you.

And btw are you a woman (because of your last sentence) ?

[SilverBUllet]

  Agencies would not have copyright protection because the original is not owned by them. It is possible that a woman posts the same photos on several agency sites, should each agency have the right to sue the other for copyright infringement? I find it hard to believe that AFA would object to one of it's clients showing that the ladies that attend the socials are real, especially since Law wrote a very positive account of his experience. The woman has no basis for complaint because she is the one who originally posted them on the internet for anyone to see.

   From what I observed, most of the comparison photos were taken at AFA's social. I don't remember all of the ladies but I do remember this lady http://www.loveme.com/tour/photos/Ukraine-women_12-2008/odessa-women-12-08-0029.html

   And the blond in this photo, http://www.loveme.com/tour/photos/Ukraine-women_12-2008/ukraine-women-12-08-023.html

    I don't remember Law saying that he dated either one personally, so yes they were taken in a social setting.

   I am sure that Ms. Cruz proudly gave her permission to use her likeness to represent your internet persona.

Ms Cruz is a public person, I am not. 

[Ridersfan]

Ok, I hear you. I just expressed my opinion about what a gentleman in my mind would perhaps do in these matters. I would not have liked to have my potential future wife to be all over the web 

Just one comment if you go to http://www.anastasiaweb.com you will notice that all photos there are watermarked Anastasia property. E.g. AFA. 

   They are not marked Anastasia property, they are marked Anastasia International. It does not make them their property.

     http://www.anastasia-international.com/profile-single-Ukraine-girl-Inna-1105765.htm

  And the same photos could be marked Loveme.com

     http://www.loveme.com/invar/search2b.php

 So which one owns them? Which one stole them from the other?


   BTW, what the @#$% is a "public person"?



 

[Shadow]

   BTW, what the @#$% is a "public person"?

I know in Dutch there is something as a 'public woman' but as gentleman I will leave possible meaning of those words to you. 

[Admin]

This started out as one of the most informative TR's we have seen in a long while. Law has managed to maintain himself with dignity and maturity in his responses to numerous 'challenges'. We have seen debate on the use of tours, AFA, race, and now the photo thing.

In terms of the latter, we have stumbled and staggered across and around and through some of the most 'sticky' issues facing internet sites. There are copyright issues. There are issues of 'fair use.' There are issues of potential defamation. There are, indeed, considerations made in the case of a "public figure" (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Public+person). And there are issues involving commercial intent and use. And probably others I have not touched on.

When the issue came up here in this TR, I offered the perspective that I am firmly convinced Law was not in violation of any legal boundaries, and well within the ethical standards set for this sort of thing. In terms of ethics, this is a point on which reasonable people can, and will, disagree. RWD has stated our position on this matter previously - and it has been rehashed and affirmed as a result of this latest episode.

The sad part of all this is - Law generously shared with us his experiences. He did so in a tasteful and respectful manner and was not seeking anything more than to be able to pass along useful information to others. While Law was quite gracious in his presentation, some here at RWD were not nearly so gracious in their acceptance. Instead, choosing to find fault and criticize on points not relevant or not significant.

Kudos to GoodOlBoy who is diligent in taking tangents and posting them in new topics so as to not disrupt the existing topic - that is appreciated by all.

- Dan

[ECOCKS]

Dan, could you maybe kill off back to where this started and we can start over with this topic on GOB's thread? We can chalk this one up to a learning experience perhaps and move forward?

And Law, could you please resume your report? It was one of the more refreshing perspectives on Ukraine that I have seen in a couple of years.

Please?

[Law]

Dear, dear members of RWD...

In a relatively short amount of time RWD has become an obsession for me. Whether I find the love that I'm looking for overseas or not this community has changed my life in some pretty neat ways. I found this forum JUST before I stepped on my first plane to Ukraine and I felt like I owed people here as comprehensive of a report as I could compose.

Because of the 'members only' nature of RWD I felt that sharing public and semi private events from my trip were completely appropriate. The privilege of enjoying my photos in a scrapbook, yearbook, facebook spirit is exclusive to the RWD membership. And even though our membership can extend so far out as to appear public I was under the impression that this is a private community. Here tucked away behind the curtain of our forum we exchange valuable information about the thrills, chills and spills of finding love overseas. I was also under the impression that a somewhat closed membership like this would protect its own interests from those within or without from threatening the things that not only benefit it, but that it enjoys.

My, how wrong I was.

Silver Bullet, you claim that you had the ladies interests in mind. I'm sure you did. But I had YOU, my fellow members in mind.

You claimed that my report was selfish and egocentric. Well, yes and no. Was it egocentric? Of course it was! It's MY trip report- who else would it center around?. But was it selfish? No. It would have been FAR easier to NOT write, rewrite and edit such a lengthy report.

Silver Bullet, you threatened to translate and post my report on another forum? How is this in your or anyone's best interest? Whether you were serious or not this is FAR more heinous than any wrong that you imagined that I've done AND a probably a serious violation of the agreement of the terms of use on this forum. Whether it is or not I've lost a lot of respect for you for such a childish ploy. WTH?

So I've started a new thread and ask two questions to our wonderful community here. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8882.0

But please don't answer them here because, sadly, this thread has gone to hell. We should bury it and figure out a better way to portray friends and the good company who are captured on camera during a trip.

Admin, can we 'heal' this thread and restore it once we figure out some better guidelines for my photos?

-Law

[GoodOlBoy]

Hello Law.

I guess this GoodOlBoy has to eat a great big piece of "HUMBLE PIE" for asking you back at the beginning of this mess to post more of your TR photos.

I had no idea that TR photos would cause such an outcry of righteous indignation from "some" of our members.

Again.... I apologize Law for all the trouble.

GOB



FYI... This really was one of the best trip reports I have seen in a good while.

[Shadow]

Law, any good thread will go to hell eventually. The best ones pick up the pace and get over it.
While it would be possible to clean up some things and split them, it would also make it more boring.
Its the discussions that make RWD an interesting place to be.

I hpe that you will continue, as I agree that your trip report provided a great read, and also an insight in the 'tours' that is often missed.

[HiTech]

I am also upset the pictures were removed. The Web sight and snap shot photos were some of the best I have ever seen with respect to what a person can expect.

[Law]

I am also upset the pictures were removed. The Web sight and snap shot photos were some of the best I have ever seen with respect to what a person can expect.

I enjoyed putting that together! And I just want to clarify, I removed the photos, not the Admins. Way too much drama for me to handle...

-L

[Shadow]

Way too much drama for me to handle...

-L

That means you should have second thoughts about finding a RW. You will find much more and better drama in your future. 

[groovlstk]

I enjoyed putting that together! And I just want to clarify, I removed the photos, not the Admins. Way too much drama for me to handle...

-L

Law,

If you decided to remove the photos out of respect for the women you dated, I applaud you. If you did so because of a perceived threat or to avoid controversy, I think you ought to reconsider.

[Gator]

If you decided to remove the photos out of respect for the women you dated, I applaud you. If you did so because of a perceived threat or to avoid controversy, I think you ought to reconsider.

I do not recall anything being disrespectful, so the photos should have stayed.  They are the same type of photos that one sees on AFA's webpages aggrandizing their tours.

Law, time to man up, especially if you are planning to pursue RW.  At least it proves that you are not an AFA shill.

[mark2353]

I am wondering why people would get upset if they would find their (wife's) picture 3 years from now on this site.

Because they have lied to their husband about being the first foreigner they ever met ?
Because they told they were virgins who never dated any guy in their lives ?
Because the husband would be shocked that their wives once dated other men ?

If the picture is not used for defamation or scamming, what could be your objection of finding it on which ever site ?
I just do not get it.  :noidea:

Shadow, I could not have said it any better! Perhaps We are all dating virgins on their 1st date!
I will restate what many members already stated "it was done in good taste", unlike other postings.
Several people are making deal over nothing, as you can clearly see most of the pictures are already listed on other sites.

[SilverBUllet]

Dear, dear members of RWD...

In a relatively short amount of time RWD has become an obsession for me. Whether I find the love that I'm looking for overseas or not this community has changed my life in some pretty neat ways. I found this forum JUST before I stepped on my first plane to Ukraine and I felt like I owed people here as comprehensive of a report as I could compose.

Because of the 'members only' nature of RWD I felt that sharing public and semi private events from my trip were completely appropriate. The privilege of enjoying my photos in a scrapbook, yearbook, facebook spirit is exclusive to the RWD membership. And even though our membership can extend so far out as to appear public I was under the impression that this is a private community. Here tucked away behind the curtain of our forum we exchange valuable information about the thrills, chills and spills of finding love overseas. I was also under the impression that a somewhat closed membership like this would protect its own interests from those within or without from threatening the things that not only benefit it, but that it enjoys.

My, how wrong I was.

Silver Bullet, you claim that you had the ladies interests in mind. I'm sure you did. But I had YOU, my fellow members in mind.

You claimed that my report was selfish and egocentric. Well, yes and no. Was it egocentric? Of course it was! It's MY trip report- who else would it center around?. But was it selfish? No. It would have been FAR easier to NOT write, rewrite and edit such a lengthy report.

Silver Bullet, you threatened to translate and post my report on another forum? How is this in your or anyone's best interest? Whether you were serious or not this is FAR more heinous than any wrong that you imagined that I've done AND a probably a serious violation of the agreement of the terms of use on this forum. Whether it is or not I've lost a lot of respect for you for such a childish ploy. WTH?

So I've started a new thread and ask two questions to our wonderful community here. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=8882.0

But please don't answer them here because, sadly, this thread has gone to hell. We should bury it and figure out a better way to portray friends and the good company who are captured on camera during a trip.

Admin, can we 'heal' this thread and restore it once we figure out some better guidelines for my photos?

-Law

Law, You still not get it? Your trip report....Yes it was............but the photos of the ladies you posted all over your report to amuse the other members ......those ladies were not aware of that you were going to broadcast their photos all over the web.....nor had they given their consent for you to do so. Don't you respect the ladies privacy? Don't you see that you were making entertainment out of this at the expense of the ladies? Just being cheered on by some other members ..............then you cares about the ladies' feelings. It was an ego trip.....and you still think it is ok??????    SB

[ScottinCrimea]

SB,  This discussion was taken over to another thread for a reason.  Common courtesy would suggest you take your complaints there.  And while you are there, take a look at the poll.

I suggest that it is YOU who do not get it.

[mark2353]

Did anyone else noticed that SB is a Sexless individual? I think that it is a "she" with some serious issues that is causing more problems than most other well established members.

[Admin]

Law, You still not get it? Your trip report....Yes it was............but the photos of the ladies you posted all over your report to amuse the other members ......those ladies were not aware of that you were going to broadcast their photos all over the web.....nor had they given their consent for you to do so. Don't you respect the ladies privacy? Don't you see that you were making entertainment out of this at the expense of the ladies? Just being cheered on by some other members ..............then you cares about the ladies' feelings. It was an ego trip.....and you still think it is ok??????    SB

The only one on an "ego trip" is you SB.

You are now intentionally creating a disruption. It is far beyond the mere expression of a minority opinion, it has crossed the line into wanton disregard for the RWD community.

All this has been communicated with you in private, and you have elected to ignore it. Yours is not a responsible position, as you assert. Yours is a high-minded shrill demand that others succumb to YOUR demand they follow your personal ethic - which has been established as neither based in any legal statute nor in any universal ethical/moral standard.

It is time for you to drop it SB. Continue to express your opinion in a responsible manner, but DO NOT persist in your attempt to impose your opinion on others in the irresponsible manner you have taken to this point.

If any of this is unclear to you, send me a PM.

- Dan

[Salmonberry]

guy do you really think (from what Law reported) that women there all need interpreter and that people in general cannot find such stuff in the internet? It would be such a mess and fury amongst you if you found personal details of your life posted online and you would start acting American and get "process" started... Sweet privacy.....  only for American citizens. LOL   Have some damn respect for other nations even if it is only those you "order" in catalogues. How difficult it is to understand? But I kinda suspect that Admin will tell me now that "majority wants to be entertained"  (you'all have popcorn I hope?) and that is the most important in this forum.
It is is a guarantee for high traffic. Applauds to whoever is having fun.