Gas Pipeline and effects to Ukraine

[OlgaH]

... NATO, if their present charter defines them as a military alliance of democratic nations against rogue oppressive regimes perpetrating aggression against the said nations.

In the Cold War, Nato was a big player, hawking its views and expertise on the substantive issues of the day... Today, it is a military alliance without any political clout. Where Nato has made a political stand, the consequences have been disastrous.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5354921.ece

[Mir]

MOSCOW, Jan 7 (Reuters) - Russian President Dmitry Medvedev told his Ukrainian counterpart on Wednesday that gas supplies to Kiev would resume when both sides sign a new contract at European market prices, Russian news agencies quoted the Kremlin as saying.

Agencies reported that Medvedev and Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko spoke by telephone on Wednesday evening. (Reporting by Robin Paxton, editing by Amie Ferris-Rotman and Jon Boyle)

Will this be the last nail in the coffin of Ukraine's economy?

[Blues Fairy]

Quote from Times Online

Yeah, sure Times and other leftist media will say NATO is politically bankrupt and should bow to the UN in all international matters.  Like the UN is more capable of delivering a solid political agenda.  Look how helpless they are in the Gaza conflict, with their "let's just all live in peace" ideology. 

[Mir]

The goal for Nato is to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down

( Lord Ismay the first NATO Secretary General)

[OlgaH]

Like the UN is more capable of delivering a solid political agenda.  Look how helpless they are in the Gaza conflict, with their "let's just all live in peace" ideology. 

Who NATO should bomb: Israelis or Palestinians?    In 1999 NATO bombed Serbia over autonomy for Kosovo.

[GQBlues]

This is a good wake-up call for EU. Russia is attributed for shutting down this supply - not Ukraine.

EU should do everyting it can now to make sure they start the construction of the Nabucco Pipeline, a 2000 mile pipeline coming from central Asia, through Georgia (ahem) unto Europe.

While Russia have an economic contractual right to raise their rates to Ukraine, Ukraine equally can demand raising transit fees, but in the end and unless they turn pro-Kremlin, Moscow knows full well they can "freeze" any type of negotiation with Ukraine until the thawing season of spring. After all, both Armenia and Moldova are paying rates much lower than Ukraine despite not a single section of Gazprom's pipeline can be found within their borders.

With the coming US Presidential Inauguration, coupled with the seeming crippling economic effects of recent time that Gazprom is going to get banged with, plus their immediate need for investors to their North and South Stream pipeline projects (bypassing Ukraine altogether); now is the perfect time to remind Europeans who they should be cozying up with during a new 'cold' war.

I think shutting down the gas supply right now is not only perfectly timed, but also a brilliant political move by Putin. He definitely punish those who crosses him, and rewards those who beckons upon his calling. Germany's Shroeder can fully attest to that by being hired by Gazprom as chairman of the North Stream pipeline project the minute he left his governmental seat. I think this was a reward for his 'neigh' vote on UNR 1441. I am left wondering as to whether or not chairmanship was offered to Chirac for the South Stream project however....

Too bad no one in the EU told Sarkozy his presidency term have elapse or he would be dealing with his instead of playing peacemaker somewhere else.

[OlgaH]

This is a good wake-up call for EU. Russia is attributed for shutting down this supply - not Ukraine.

EU should do everyting it can now to make sure they start the construction of the Nabucco Pipeline, a 2000 mile pipeline coming from central Asia, through Georgia (ahem) unto Europe.

BBC 7 January 2009
Nabucco will bring gas from Central Asia and the Caspian across Turkey into the European Union. But it will have only enough capacity to provide a small proportion, perhaps 5%, of Europe's needs.
EU officials say that even during the Cold War the Russian gas supply was stable, so it is better to rely on Gazprom than potentially unstable sources such as Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.

He definitely punish those who crosses him, and rewards those who beckons upon his calling.

and who Ukraine was trying to punish when Kyiv court banned Naftogaz from transiting Russian gas and Naftogas shut down the last pipeline carrying gas from Russia to Europe?  or when Naftogas was/is siphoning gas meant for Europe? 

BERLIN, Jan. 7 (UPI) -- Ukraine shut off three of its export gas pipelines to Europe, leaving Gazprom with few options to supply its European customers, Gazprom officials said.

Gazprom Vice President Alexander Medvedev told German television Tuesday that Ukraine shut off gas pipelines to Western and Central Europe overnight, the Interfax news agency reported.

"As a result, irrespective of our desire to supply gas to European consumers, we have been deprived of a physical opportunity to supply gas to Europe at full volume," he said.

Medvedev said Gazprom would utilize the 1,900-mile Yamal-Europe pipeline through Belarus and other routes to make up for gas shortages from the Ukrainian disruption.

"Unfortunately, at present we are unable to compensate for the gas stolen by Ukraine because three main transit pipelines have been shut," he lamented.

Berlin/Kiev, Jan 7 (RIA Novosti) Ukraine has closed down the fourth and final pipeline pumping Russian gas to Europe, Russia’s energy giant Gazprom said Wednesday.Ukraine’s national energy company Naftogaz said Gazprom had stopped feeding gas to Ukrainian pipes, hence it closed down its network.
The latest closure added Austria, the Czech Republic, Romania and Slovakia to the growing list of countries not receiving Russian gas.

The three other pipelines were closed Tuesday, ending deliveries via Ukraine to Hungary, Serbia, Macedonia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, and Bosnia. Supplies to Italy, Poland, France and Slovenia are seriously disrupted.

[GQBlues]

Ukraine shut off three of its export gas pipelines to Europe, leaving Gazprom with few options to supply its European customers, Gazprom officials said.

  Let me rephrase that then to prevent further misunderstanding...

"...Russia is attributed imputed for shutting down this supply - not Ukraine ("as an effect to a cause")

As for Nabucco, in the immediate period of completion, and until countries like Turmekistan, Iraq, Egypt (Iran was rejected both by the US and the EU) Azerbajan, Kazahkstan, etc (all have agreed to collectively feed the pipeline)...the output is expected to be approximately 31 billion cubic meters annually. It is meant as an additional source and not as a replacement for the current source. Which actually prompted Gazprom to proposed the South Stream (Caspian to Belgrade) project to rival this project and continue to hold its monopoly. Which is also a fairly brazen political move in itself by Moscow considering that Belgrade had begun leaning towards the direction of the setting sun they called the 'West'.

As I said above, it's a wakeup call for EU. Their energy source, their winters, their choice.

[OlgaH]

Let me rephrase that then...

"...Russia is attributed imputed for shutting down this supply - not Ukraine ("as an effect to a cause")

and Europe has sent its warning message to Ukraine 

[OlgaH]

As for Nabucco, in the immediate period of completion, and until countries like Turmekistan, Iraq, Egypt (Iran was rejected both by the US and the EU) Azerbajan, Kazahkstan, etc (all have agreed to collectively feed the pipeline)...the output is expected to be approximately 31 billion cubic meters annually. It is meant as an additional source and not as a replacement for the current source.

As I said above, it's a wakeup call for EU. Their energy source, their winters, their choice.

The Guardian,  Wednesday 7 January 2009
Europe's plan for alternative pipeline faces big problems

But the problems are formidable. European gas industry sources complain that EU officials are confusing political imperatives with economic, business and energy fundamentals. "This is an attempt at reverse engineering in pipeline development," said a senior industry source. "Usually you find the resource and then you build a pipeline. With Nabucco it's the other way round."

Pierre Noël, energy analyst at the European Council on Foreign Relations, says: "This is a project that does not exist except in the minds of Brussels bureaucrats. They think you can build a pipeline and then the gas will flow. It's simply not credible."

The industry source said there was nowhere near enough to make Nabucco viable. "The most important issue regarding this project is to obtain enough gas," the Turkish president, Abdullah Gül, said last month. The first target for gas to fill the pipeline is Azerbaijan, whose Caspian field Shah Deniz II should come onstream around 2013, when Nabucco is due to start pumping. "This gas is expected from Azerbaijan," says Mitschek of the 8bcm, or quarter of the pipeline's capacity, needed to start Nabucco operations. But Gazprom is competing fiercely for the Azerbaijani prize in a bidding war with the Europeans, offering above- market prices for the gas 

A recent western audit of Turkmenistan's gas reserves cheered officials in Brussels by confirming a doubling of the known resources. But experts caution that it will be 20 years before sufficient Turkmen gas can be pumped for Europe to evade Gazprom's control. Similar calculations apply to aims of filling Nabucco with gas from Iraq or Iran, were there to be major political change in Tehran. Compounding the problems is Turkey and its worsening relationship with the EU. Well over half the proposed pipeline is to be located in Turkey.

Brussels is attempting to negotiate an agreement making Turkey the main transit country for Caspian gas to Europe. The Turks are insisting on 15% of the gas at discounted prices, a demand that would wreck Nabucco financially, say officials in Brussels.

As I said above, it's a wakeup call for EU. Their energy source, their winters, their choice.

Probably you are right about a "wakeup call for EU".  Gazprom and Eni's South Stream 

[Blues Fairy]

Who NATO should bomb: Israelis or Palestinians?    In 1999 NATO bombed Serbia over autonomy for Kosovo.

Iran, actually, if it launches an offensive against Israel in support of Hamas.

But I was talking about the UN - sad to see them acting as the usual wimps they are when Hamas is clearly the offender and there's no peace possible in the forseeable future unless they're totally crushed. 

Sorry for the offtopic.

[Mir]

But I was talking about the UN - sad to see them acting as the usual wimps they are when Hamas is clearly the offender and there's no peace possible in the forseeable future unless they're totally crushed. 

Hamas may be the offender but 30% of those killed by the bombing are children.

[OlgaH]

Iran, actually, if it launches an offensive against Israel in support of Hamas.
...no peace possible in the forseeable future unless they're totally crushed.

Iraq, Afghanistan and plus Iran... 

Israel can thanks US for Hamas, that came to the power due to the Bush's idea of promoting democracy and free election, though he and his Co was warned about Hamas popularity. The democratic legislative election, 2006 could wait...  Now if US put its military hand on Hamas it will lead to another disastrous consequence.

[Blues Fairy]

Hamas may be the offender but 30% of those killed by the bombing are children.

It's rather difficult not to kill children when they are used as shields by the militants.

Israel can thanks US for Hamas

Wow. 
And of course US will be to blame if Iran nukes Israel, since US invented the bomb, right?

[OlgaH]

Wow. 
And of course US will be to blame if Iran nukes Israel, since US invented the bomb, right?

If is if...

I was talking about the election. Here is an interesting article that was written after the election
http://www.stratfor.com/new_power_pna/?utm_source=GWeekly&utm_campaign=none&utm_medium=email

Israeli Operation to Increase Hamas' Popularity
http://newsblaze.com/story/20081228104213zzzz.nb/topstory.html

Paradoxically, it is not only Israel who needed the current invasion of Gaza to protect its citizens from Islamic fighters. The Hamas leaders, who have been at loggerheads with Abbas, whose powers expire in January 2009, will also benefit from the attac
Israel will not eradicate Hamas's ideas. Even if it invades and occupies Gaza, this will only strengthen the surviving Palestinians' belief in Hamas and hatred for "the Zionist enemy." This is exactly what the Islamists need.
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20081230/119236498.html

[Mir]

It's rather difficult not to kill children when they are used as shields by the militants.

Try explaining that to the mothers and fathers who lose those children.
All such adventures do is to produce more recruits for Hamas.
Have you ever visited a war zone? Or you are one of those who are intoxicated by the romantic notion of war as portrayed by the American media?

[Blues Fairy]

Try explaining that to the mothers and fathers who lose those children.
All such adventures do is to produce more recruits for Hamas.
Have you ever visited a war zone? Or you are one of those who are intoxicated by the romantic notion of war as portrayed by the American media?

You're the one wearing the pink goggles if you're thinking war usually happens without civillian deaths.  Have you even looked at the link I provided?  How is it possible to pinch out militants and bomb their war structures if they grab their own children and put them on the rooftops? 

What solution have you got for Israel, abandon their land and go live somewhere else, for fear of harming the live shields of Hamas?  Pretty much anything Israel does for its protection will get slammed by you people.

[wxman]

Israel and the Palenstinians don't even know the reason for this war that has never ended. This war has been going on for over a thousand years, it's only been interrupted with brief periods of stare downs. They don't know why they hate each other, just that they are suppose to hate each other. This will never be resolved peacefully, especially when part of the Palenstinian state is on the western border of Israel (Gaza), and the other on the east (west bank). It would be like having the US on the east and west coasts of North America, and Russia in between. Eventually someone would stir the pot and trigger a fight.

[Misha]

This will never be resolved peacefully, especially when part of the Palenstinian state is on the western border of Israel (Gaza), and the other on the east (west bank).

I remember looking at an old atlas that had been published prior to the Six-Day War. There was no Palestine, just Israel, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. The main root of the problem is that much of the Arab world does not accept the very existence of Israel IMHO. Yes, perhaps it would have been better to create the state of Israel somewhere in Kansas, but history can't be undone so easily. If Syria, Jordan and Egypt were to truly accept the existence of Israel and respect some mutually agreed upon borders, then the territory that is now the West Bank and Gaza would just as easily be returned to these states.

[wxman]

I remember looking at an old atlas that had been published prior to the Six-Day War. There was no Palestine, just Israel, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. The main root of the problem is that much of the Arab world does not accept the very existence of Israel IMHO. Yes, perhaps it would have been better to create the state of Israel somewhere in Kansas, but history can't be undone so easily. If Syria, Jordan and Egypt were to truly accept the existence of Israel and respect some mutually agreed upon borders, then the territory that is now the West Bank and Gaza would just as easily be returned to these states.

The problem is that Egypt and Jordan don't want the Palestinians in their country either. Palestine goes back to Roman times. In the 2nd century the Romans merged the provinces of Iudaea with Galilee, Samaria and Idumaea, and called it  Syria-Palaestina after they crushed the Jewish uprising during the first and 2nd centuries. Israel for all intents and purposes ceased to exist and the Jewish nation was sent into exile.

[ScottinCrimea]

Is there a Ukrainian gas pipeline in the gaza strip now?   :noidea:

[ECOCKS]

More importantly, do you have pictures and the ethical right to post them here?

    
 
 

[Diplomacy]

If you had pictures of the Ukrainian Pipeline, proving the validity of someones argument. Would you have the right to post them here?

[ECOCKS]

Good point!

For instance, if we clearly depicted Ukraine siphoning off gas, we could make the ethical case that, despite lacking definitive permission for the posting, this was, in fact, in the greater interest of the public good.

[Diplomacy]

Especially if the person doing the siphoning was drinking a cup of coffee