Need advice after first trip to Ukraine!

[Sculpto]

jack.. I have a question for you..

The agency the OP used in Odessa is corrupt.  I have a TON of circumstantial evidence but have been unable to get concrete proof.  Additionally RLM is convinced that they are wonderful.

I find the cynicism of their supposedly "Christian" ethics and the reality that they scam really perverse.  I would do just about anything to screw these people, even though they never scammed me.  So, what do you suggest?

[Doll]

I just would like some opinions about my story

Could be anything- from gold digging to just testing you. Depends.
As for her feelings hurt- it is just the difference in culture.
A Russian woman's opinion.

[Sculpto]

Could be anything- from gold digging to just testing you. Depends.
As for her feelings hurt- it is just the difference in culture.
A Russian woman's opinion.

doll, under normal circumstances you might be right.  However, I know the agency and corresponded with several girls from that agency.  The method of operating is the same.  The whole deal is highly suspect IMO.

[Gator]

RW do test you, but not so blatantly.

The RW in the MOB parade have been tutored to smile, to say “thank you,” to not sleep with you the first night, and to not ask for expensive presents.

So why would a RW ask for a present and then keep pushing for more?

The answer: she has decided that she is not sincerely interested in you, but she thinks that you may be stupid enough to buy her presents.  So she will try to milk you.  And based on the OP’s info, it seems that she did not even need to sleep with you to receive the gifts.  She has bragged to her friends and they now think she is such a clever girl.

I guarantee you that if this woman was really interested in you, she would not have pushed for presents and she would have claimed you by sleeping with you.

Buying a present is good, but only near the end of a meeting and only if you are sure that she is really interested in you.  The man should be first to suggest the gift, saying that he would like to buy her something as a reminder of the wonderful time they had together. 

[SMS60]

After 3 months of emails and phone calls I decided to meet with her.

I usually lurk around the site but wanted to comment on this post. Maybe start posting more.

I want to be the so called "devils advocate".

I think Flatsix was used (scammed) but I have some questions that might change my mind.

Flatsix, how often were the phone calls and e-mail's in the 3 months before your visit? What kind of connection were you feeling? How were you making her feel in these conversations? What kind of words were used? Did you lead her on? Did her actions match her words?

3 months of contact can make people feel close to each other. Depending on how things were percieved on each end. And how often you talked.

I agree with the other posters, you were weak and should not have gave in so easy but if there was a connection from the correspondence of 3 months, buying some things would not be that far out of line. Talk to someone every day you dont feel like strangers.

Just some thoughts.

[Bruce]

Read Gator's post, then read it again.

Run, do not walk away from this woman.   Lick your wounds much smarter for your next journey, or not....................

[Blues Fairy]

She may well be genuine but have a huge sense of entitlement.  Raising her son alone while the rich ex provided zero help may have made her feel that the world OWES her and she has to collect NOW - regardless of her long-term hopes and projections about the relationship with you.  An extrelemy tough trait to deal with if you are seriously considering marriage.  Mind you, if mama has a sense of entitlement then her son most likely does, too.  Are you ready to deal with the two of them once they arrive to your country?

[Ulysses]

FlatSix,
           Speaking from a rather recent experience.....Kiev in early November....I find myself in Gator's camp, but value SMS60's suggestions very much.   I've done the shoe shopping, etc excursions...and was generous...to an extent.  But I never received any "hints" or other suggestions that made me feel I was expected to step forward at the register just for her company.  I was actively involved in those purchases from her "needs" perspective and will probably be "helpful" during my visit later this week.  If your looking to the long-term.......look closely
           

[Jack]

jack.. I have a question for you..

sculpto, check your pm

[Doll]

doll, under normal circumstances you might be right.  However, I know the agency and corresponded with several girls from that agency.  The method of operating is the same.  The whole deal is highly suspect IMO.

I don't consider the agency thing, I am only thinking as a woman 

[Doll]

She may well be genuine but have a huge sense of entitlement.  Raising her son alone while the rich ex provided zero help may have made her feel that the world OWES her and she has to collect NOW - regardless of her long-term hopes and projections about the relationship with you.   

Also possible

[Enot]

Enot, you are a complete and total idiot. It is indeed a sad, sick mind that cruises forums with no other intent than to inflame and disrupt.

As I said, your opinion is always correct and no other is valid.  I bow to your all knowing and all seeing ability.  You are the guru of this website and everything you say is gospel, no exceptions.

Happy Holidays from the "Complete And Total Idiot"!  I love you too. 

[Mir]

Well you sure were generous.
And what did you get in return?
Was it just goodbye kisses and hand holding?

[Enot]

Well you sure were generous.
And what did you get in return?
Was it just goodbye kisses and hand holding?

Hey I'm a generous guy with an open mind ... unlike a few members here that live in their own little world.

[Diplomacy]

Flat6,

Deep 6 this one, learn from it and go on.  In the end it does not matter who she is and what she did.  What matters is she made you feel bad and you told her.  She then gave you both barrels again.  Well that is a great ploy too for someone that is playing on kindness to get something.

Please be with someone that makes you feel great and you make feel great.  That is the person to marry.  Sure there are going to be hurt feeling, but how you both respond when that happens says volumes. 

Best of luck to you, and be glad it was not a  $2,1000 fur coat too.  It can always be worse right?

[Doll]

What matters is she made you feel bad and you told her.

To not feel bad you need to discuss things before you do something! He had to say no when she asked him for this dress. Now what? He wanted to be nice- so be it.Or you say no and don't feel bad.
Then don't go shopping when dating.

[Gator]

To not feel bad you need to discuss things before you do something! He had to say no when she asked him for this dress. Now what? He wanted to be nice- so be it.Or you say no and don't feel bad.
Then don't go shopping when dating.

Agree with you Doll.  If you feel bad, say something then, not afterwards.  RW respect decisive men even if the man does not do what she wants (Note:  "respect" is not the same as "like"). 

[Doll]

  That is the person to marry.

I dated more than one AM. One was really generous but then he complained he spent too much. Another said before he came to see me that he didn't want any expensive vacations (he meant that week) but at the end he said he was very surprised I didn't ask for anything .
Go figure.

[Diplomacy]

This is where you got the decisive issue Doll.  Yes, it would have been easy to say no and that is the end of it.  One way or the other.  Reality is there are men that are kind and I do not really know that it is Naive.  When dealing with a different normal it is sometimes hard to know if something is accepted behavior in that country.

To say no without knowing for sure if this in accepted behavior, they then feel they can take a big step backwards if they say no.  I agree a lot of the issues come from expectations, and I would have thought is strange to ask for dress and Ipod for son at that point.  I could understand if he solicited ideas for gifts, and that point can be clarified either way.

Now this forum does allow one to learn more.  All too often it is after the person gets back and trying to figure out what really is going on.  Americans are not the best at taking time to understand a culture before they go a lot of the time.  I think you see this with English also.  How can you not learn some words and put in effort to talk with someone you are looking to marry is beyond me.  If you like someone, there are not enough horses in the stable to keep me from learning.


Expectations and the trip should be fun to plan.  If someone is interested in you coming, then they should be wanting to talk all about it. 

The second he gave those 2 gifts, he was in trouble IMO.  Is it better to find this out sooner or later?


I found plenty of women that would ask for things, and then get real stern when you said no in my experience with HRB.  Say what you want about the site, but there was some clear tactics being used and very similar to what he just went through. 

I feel there are more than a few women there that have no interest and then milk what they can.  Of course then there are the Men that are throwing money around like it is going out of style.  Just saying, I am not sure it is not a good idea to go shopping and see how the situation goes. Not on the first date though.

[Doll]

When dealing with a different normal it is sometimes hard to know if something is accepted behavior in that country.

There are basic things that we can apply to ANY country, we call it "common sense". Russia and Ukraine are civilized countries so common sense can be applied to all parts of life and it would be same as here.
You say no and then expect any reaction or you say yes then you need to go for it.
He said yes then no and put himself in a bitter situation.
Again- this is my RW opinion

[Doll]

Just saying, I am not sure it is not a good idea to go shopping and see how the situation goes. Not on the first date though.

Not on the first date and not for the fur coats.
Now it is hard for me too to say who the woman is- a gold digger or just the one who wants some gifts ,the latter being also not so good.

[Bart]

Unfortunately,  In our emails she hinted to me that there was a dress that she had always wanted and it could only be purchased here in the states on line. I was making my trip close to Christmas time and decided that I should go ahead and buy this gift for her, she also mentioned in another email that she wanted to get an Ipod touch for her son and that she would reimburse me for it when I came.  I thought again that it being Christmas time that it would be a nice thing to do for a woman who I felt could definitely be my future wife.

The statement in bold is going too far for a first meeting.  You have a dangerous condition-- infatuation! 

You need to back off.  The fact is that this girl came off like a pro dater.  You need to run from her and start over.  It's 99% that she is trouble with a capital T!

There are hundreds of thousands of good girls in the FSU who would never demand gifts from you, and would sure as hell be more affectionate! 

[groovlstk]

On this and other forums over the years, I've noticed that when there's a story about a woman asking her date to buy her a new xyz, there are always some who write this behavior off as a "test." The inference is that maybe the woman didn't even want xyz and her real aim was to be sure her date will respond to her needs in the future and lay to rest any fears in her mind that he might be greedy. Further, the guy is usually applauded if he hauls out his wallet and buys whatever random luxury item was requested and the understanding is that he passed this test.

Just my opinion, but those who think they aced this test by giving into such crass, low-class, and rude attempts at manipulation are suckers, plain and simple. And any hope that this is a once-only occurrence or that by passing this exam you've crossed some important threshold in the battle to win her heart is equally silly.

Most beautiful women learn at an early age how to get what they want, and become quite sophisticated at it. A woman who comes right out and asks you directly to buy a luxury item when you barely know her is either a) simple and dumb as a plank of wood, or b) lacking even the slightest bit of respect for you. I don't even believe that by saying nyet or refusing to buy her what she wants is the correct behavior - if it was me the correct response is nyet and dosvidanaya.

Whether you're dating women at home or in the FSU - but especially in the FSU - one rule that never changes is that you'll pretty much get the respect that you demand. Throw out the vanity ebooks about how to successfully woo beautiful Russian women and forget the silly Western platitudes that tell you strangers will respect you simply because you're a decent human being. Buy a woman a fur coat or expensive pair of shoes on the second date because she asked and she'll do the same thing over and over, either until she gets bored and dumps you or you go broke. Demand respect and she'll either respect you or she won't associate with you. It's that simple.

[ScottinCrimea]

An FSUW is going to look at you as either a short term opportunity or a long term partner.  If she is thinking only short term, she will try to get as much from you as she can as quickly as possible before the relationship as you see it goes south.  If she is thinking in the long term, she will not ask for so much so soon, realizing that over time, these things will come naturally.

Now she may change to a long term perspective if you refuse to give in to these requests for gifts, but never if you give in.

If you are afraid she will dump you if you say no, then you are suffering from a severe sense of inadequacy and need to step back and regroup because you are ripe for being used.

[flatsix]

Thank you everyone for your responses to my situation.

I thought my months of research would help me but after being put on the spot by this woman I just caved.

I have since ended my relationship with her. We had agreed to communicate through private email and chat and she continued to write me through RLM. After seeing the patterns you all were describing, I saw first hand that of course everything that you all have said here is true.
I decided to ask her about future intimacy as well since the subject had not come up yet.
She told me that any Russian Ukrainian woman who was serious about marriage would NEVER sleep with a man before marriage!  What an eye opener!
She must be a good girl right?  whatever, I have ended it and now have my tail between my legs.

Now that I am gunshy am not sure what it will take to get me to date anyone from the FSU again, I obviously will not be logging on to RLM ever again!

Thanks again for the info, I actually searched here for info on RLM and did not see the bad reports on that website other than the expense.