Violence against journalists

[Sculpto]

Sculpto,

I did not read your TR (I was busy with getting married), yet it appears from other posts that your woman has been volatile before her father became ill.  True?

And she feels that you are rushing her into marriage ("She has since on a couple of occasions expressed a certain reluctance about getting married, not because she doesn't care for me or love me, but, because she is young and has no pressing need to get married at this point.")

It seems to me based on the little that I know that she is very young.  What is her age?  Also, it seems that you have not spent a lot of face time with her.   How much time together? 

Gator.. congrats on your marriage..

She was not volatile at all before her father became ill.  In fact, quite the contrary...

her volatility after he became ill was frustrating but tolerable.. and the positives far outweighed the negatives.. the difference in the last week has been extreme.. the results of being attacked plus her Fathers illness are pushing her emotionally and then on top of all that here I am asking her to fill out her G325.. btw.. it was her who suggested starting the visa about 6 weeks ago but she was in Moscow at the time and did not have access to her birth certificate.  Everything was on course and fine when she first got back to Tomsk until she was attacked and she has been totally unpredictable since. 

She is clearly in crisis.. so, maybe I need to just be supportive and not make demands or add any additional stresses to her situation.

She is early 20s Gator.. she is young and up until now her maturity has not been an issue.  She is very independent and has been so for a long time.  We corresponded daily, often for hours on end, for a little over a year before we finally met IRL during which time we were together about 9-10 days.  We stayed together in the apartment and were happy together. 

The idea of starting the K1 now even though we had planned to spend more time together was to diminish time apart later this year.  but, I feel that once she sat down and studied the papers and realized this is serious stuff she reacted because of all the other stuff that is piled up on her right now. 

one of the things I talked with her about this morning was what I went through several years ago when my Mom had cancer and we were not sure if she would survive.  She did, but, truth be told I was not very pleasant to be around durng that time.  If I put myself into her shoes its not that hard to understand her stress level or her fear about making life changing decisions right now.

I think I just need to give her space and let things calm down.  I have the visa and plane for a two week trip in Feb so I can always postpone or cancel or go ahead and go depending on how things evolve in the next few weeks.

[Sculpto]

The last time I posted about this in your original TR I said walk away because of all the drama, but you said you liked the drama.

Take it from me, someone who has almost always been attracted to "exciting" (read drama ridden) women and suffered the consequences as a result; it is possible to meet exciting, interesting women that don't come with the drama, like the woman I'm now engaged to. Drama is not a prerequisite for excitement.

SJ.. I hear what you are saying.. but.. I can not help looking back to the time before all this stuff happened..

And, I have really been there with total drama queens before.. the Frenchwoman I was with makes what is going on right now seem like nothing.

[Misha]

the positives far outweighed the negatives

IMHO opinion, if you met a woman once for a week or two, there should be no negatives if you are already filing the paperwork for a K-1 or whatever it is in the United States and are planning on marrying her. Again, if your goal is marriage for life, why marry someone who already has negatives? There are certainly others negatives that you have yet to discover. This is what I learned from my failed marriage: never settle. Unless you are convinced that she it the best woman possible for you, that you are in love with her and she with you, and unless you adore even her negatives when dating, then you should not be rushing into marriage. JMHO.

[M_Diva]

I am completely without knowledge of you two but there are a few points that seem to come from the comments you have posted here and on other topics.
One is that you two have different methods of coping with stress and crisis. This surely will not be the only crisis either of you will have and you can see how you seek support and to be closer while she withdraws instead of seeing you as an ally upon whom to lean. That is a potential for continued conflict where the closer you try to get, the more she feels like she is being smothered and pressured.  In times of crisis, major or minor, as each day brings in real life, having different coping mechanisms will leave you both frustrated and possibly angry.

Another point is that you do not know each other. You have spent so little time together and under artificial conditions of a romantic holiday where none of the daily routine is present where "self" emerges, such as problem solving techniques or normal civil behavior. This is no race to find the perfect mate, take some time....not with letters...in person, the winner of this race is seldom the fastest.

Another point that I hope you do not take badly; you might not be mature enough for such a difficult relationship as any cross cultural relationship is. I come to this by seeing a pattern of postings where you jump to unwise and unreasoned conclusions based on scant if any evidence. You are going to have to slow down when building images in your mind that become rigid before reality has a chance to disabuse you of those incorrect images.

The likelihood of your randomly finding the optimum mate where you do not share common language, cultural experiences and lifestyles are long odds, much longer than finding an appropriate mate in your own neighborhood where you have shared all and are equipped with discrimination skills to judge character and traits.

 A woman in your own neighborhood grew up with the same cultural icons, such as TV shows or civic events that helps to define our world view. Even a sense of humor is based primarily on a shared cultural experience between the teller and audience, whether on stage or across a pillow where much of the impact is based on unspoken inferences you both would understand.
There must be compelling reasons to overthrow your own definition of self and your teachings to wish to absorb such a foreign [pun intended]influence. For many couples there is such a compelling reason such as a true adaptation of each others culture in a very open minded and positive influence on becoming a multicultural person.  I do not sense that you are going to adopt elements of her thinking styles, views on gender roles(no, they are not the ones you talked about in letters, they are unspoken assumptions believed by both to be so obvious they never need to be mentioned as with most cultural influences that are believed to be "natural" instead of learned), and quite frankly open mindedness that would prevent you from jumping to the erroneous conclusions in this and other threads. You were very very wrong about your conclusions about me, yet I am much more familiar with your culture, having lived there, than she is.

If you want to continue your , go stay in her region for an extended period, as it is impractical for the opposite. See if there is a melding of problem solving methods, expectations and lifestyles. Find out, through experience, not by guessing, whether you two can or do adopt a common social class. The social class issue is the most misunderstood by foreigners coming here. It is not economic is the a set of life expectations, social behaviors, cultural training that defines social groups. The most significant factor in determining long term satisfactory bonding is similarity in social class, ranking far higher than economic class(which is very transitory) sexual attraction(also transitory), age, attractiveness, and personality.
That is one of the main reasons arranged marriages in cultures where that is the norm, have the highest levels of long term mate satisfaction, the family or friends who pick and arrange the pairings do so with deliberate attention to social class above all other traits, often well before the personalities are fully developed.

If you go in Feb, go as a friend or someone who is around if wanted but don't expect her to respond how you would respond in a similar situation. Use it as a learning experience to feel the environment that grew and nurtured her into the person she is now and taught her the crisis coping methods she uses. Putting pressure on her will not likely give the results you seek. If she does respond and wish comfort from you, it will also teach her that you can be a source of support and strength when needed. That is a very important lesson all us women find valuable.
The real point of much of what I have written is that you know so little about each other that you need to ask a list of strangers as to what her behavior means. After 6 months of daily interaction, would you need to? Unlikely.
Letters are no substitute for direct interaction and shared experiences. I suspect you are misreading many of her comments, and place entirely too much importance on single lines in the letters or comments on the phone. This is what is confusing you, taken individually and singly they appear to be contradictory to you but after 6 months or so, they would fit into a larger framework that would make a different sense.

Good luck
Marina
 

[Simoni]

IMHO opinion, if you met a woman once for a week or two, there should be no negatives if you are already filing the paperwork for a K-1 or whatever it is in the United States and are planning on marrying her. Again, if your goal is marriage for life, why marry someone who already has negatives? There are certainly others negatives that you have yet to discover. This is what I learned from my failed marriage: never settle. Unless you are convinced that she it the best woman possible for you, that you are in love with her and she with you, and unless you adore even her negatives when dating, then you should not be rushing into marriage. JMHO.

I agree with Misha.  If you are already making compromises at this early stage, you are "settling" for a girl that will challenge your happiness later.  You either need to go spend three months in her country with her now, or put the K-1 on hold and date her for a year, seeing her several more times.

Don't just consider her positives; remember that she has major negatives too, and they may make you very unhappy in the future...

[Daveman]

Sculpto, I finally read all of this.  Something really reeks here.  I get the distinct impression of severely juvenile relations. The teenage drama syndrome.  I get the impression that walking this path will be a journey of great emotional distress and the prize at the end, should you actually make it that far, could very well be similar to a Zonk on "Let's Make A Deal".

Sure any relations has its internal drama sometimes, but this is bordering on some parallel universe. I would say that this is beyond "red flags" and has entered the realm of just plain weird.

I imagine the next move to be your traveling to Tomsk in Feb and amazing her by twirling flaming batons naked.  Seriously, try to take a step back and see how strange all of this really is.

Should you decide to continue, you really need massive amounts of face time in a non euphoric setting.... i.e., the daily grind.  Make an extended visit and live together day to day.. that'll give you far more answers than any speculation from extrapolative analysis ever will...

Good luck,
Dave

[GoodOlBoy]

I imagine the next move to be your traveling to Tomsk in Feb and amazing her by twirling flaming batons naked.....

I actually saw this in Key West, at the end of the pier..at sunset. 

Well the guy wasn't exactly naked. He was wearing a cloth thong! 



GOB

[Gator]

Marina,

Good to see you post again, and it is an excellent post.

One is that you two have different methods of coping with stress and crisis.

Yes, important.  I include conflict in this category.  Conflict is inevitable in marriage.  With compatible couples, conflicts wind down productively and quickly, ending with a "win-win."

The most significant factor in determining long term satisfactory bonding is similarity in social class, ranking far higher than economic class(which is very transitory) sexual attraction(also transitory), age, attractiveness, and personality.

My first reaction was to disagree with "far higher,"  thinking that if Possum read this, he would call this arrogance.   

Then I reread it and noted that your definition includes life expectations, social behaviors, and culture, essentially what I consider goals and values.  A couple must share the same values, and althogh their goals do not have to be the same, they must be aligned.  I assume your definition of social class includes more than values and goals.  What else?  

I am still not convinced about the "far higher" because I believe all of your six parameters are important.  Disparity in one parameter (e. g.,  age - so frequent in WM-RW marriages) requires acceptable accommodations, plus outstanding compatibility with regard to all other parameters.  Perhaps you are saying there can be no disparity in "social class?"  Very interesting and I would appreciate an elaboration.

[Faux Pas]

I actually saw this in Key West, at the end of the pier..at sunset. 

Well the guy wasn't exactly naked. He was wearing a cloth thong! 



GOB

One must be very careful of what they get to close to observe in Key West 

[SMS60]

Marina,

You have good insight on relationships but it does not fit Sculptos problem. Your advice would be good in other situations but not this one.

This is a good example of where a man should not seek advice about women from another woman. Especially the " new age women". More "traditional women" maybe.

The undertone of your post is Sculpto is the problem. Yes he probally does have some issues because of his past but I dont think it has anything to do with this problem. The problem I see with Sculpto is not having the self-respect to walk away from this drama. He needs to have the fortitude to follow his "gut instinct". An "interested" women does not confuse a man. We have to go by what he posted. And it does not read good.

Traveling 5000 miles to meet as "friends" is a waste of time and resources.There are to many availible women to do this. Once the man hears or thinks a " lets be friends" line he should eject.

[AnastassiaAsh]

An "interested" women does not confuse a man. We have to go by what he posted. And it does not read good.

Very true!

Yes, the only Sculpto's problem is the lack of self-esteem and hope that he would find a much better woman in a much better situation.

[possum]

My first reaction was to disagree with "far higher,"  thinking that if Possum read this, he would call this arrogance.   

Not at all.. My mother taught me to stick with my own kind and never class-mix.. I look down upon those dirty class traitors who marry outside of their own class..

[Faux Pas]

Not at all.. My mother taught me to stick with my own kind and never class-mix.. I look down upon those dirty class traitors who marry outside of their own class..

  Possum you are a blast of fresh air! I for one appreceiate your contributions. However, I don't know that you fully grasped the full meaning of Marina's post. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

[possum]

  Possum you are a blast of fresh air! I for one appreceiate your contributions. However, I don't know that you fully grasped the full meaning of Marina's post. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

Thank you, FP.. It's hard to grasp something that's a) not very articulate and b) full of pseudo-scientific mumbo jumbo, and besides my post wasn't in response to the whole screed but rather to Gator's line referencing me..

[Sculpto]

Well I thought it is about time I updated what has been going on. 

I chose to follow BC's advice and SJ's advice from a couple of PM's.

After my original postings I decided to stop calling her and sending sms messages and staying off yahoo.  I made the decision if she did not contact me in one weeks time I would end the relationship. 

It only took two days.  Since that time she has taken the intiative to send sms messages when she is going to be on yahoo and has adjusted her online schedule so we can chat.  I have continued with the same approach for the last couple of weeks and it has had some very positive results.

Things have calmed down.  She is working and very busy with exams at her Uni.  Her mood is really improved.  We have been chatting regularly which has been good.  I am also getting the frequent and random "I miss you" and "Kiss" sms messages that stopped while she was recovering.

We have not discussed the "hysteria" but she has made several gestures that indicate she feels bad about the things she said.  The most profound, which really suprised me, was her asking me what size ring I wear because she wants to buy my ring in Tomsk.  She also signed up on Facebook, per my invite, and has had some correspondence with my Mom.  Mom likes her and says she is a good woman. 

I am going forward with the trip.  We have eliminated specific expectations and there is no plan to try for a fast marriage in Moscow.  The plan is to spend two weeks together in Moscow.  She will be working part of the time at different offices and at "home" on her articles.  If the trip goes well we will sit down and do the paperwork together at the end of the trip.  She is bringing all her documents.

I also want to comment on some of the things that have been said in this thread.  My self esteem is far from suffering Anastasia.  Just because I am very open about my situation on this forum and am willing to reveal real feelings or insecurities does not have any correlation to the status of my self esteem.  I appreciate that you feel I can do better or whatever, but, what i reveal here is just a small part of who I am and what I do.  I am leaning on this board when I come to moments that I do not know what to do.  I think that is what the board is for in many ways.  I don't need help when things are going good with my woman, and, it doesn't make very good reading either.  Just look above.. how boring are my comments?  Everything is going good now.. yawn..

I suspect most of you do not know very many artists.  While I can not speak for all artists I can say that most artists I know are highly expressive people who live very unconventional lifestyles.  I spin fire naked in the desert and for some of you that seems bizarre and weird.  You are entitled to your opinion and I am not asking you to see me naked.  But, it makes ME happy to do such things, same as it does to spend hours in silence in front of a canvas mixing colors and splashing paint around or travelling in Mexico speaking broken Mayan and eating river snails and pitaya and learning about psychoactive cacti and identifying unknown variations of orchids and making music with with cicadas howler monkeys.  I do not expect "you" to understand and would be surprised if "you" did.  Frankly, the golfing/real estate mogul/suburban lifestyle some of you guys live is weird and bizarre to me and I do not understand it.  But, I have lived in that world and chose to live in mine instead, doing things my way, by my rules.   

Diplomacy.. you told me to fold and expressed concern that she would not respect me after all of that.  But, you might find it strange, but, this crisis brought us closer together.  I am sure in retrospect she felt really bad about how she spoke to me, if she even remembers the details, but, what she did see was that I stuck by her during her crisis, kept a level head, and did not rub her bad behavior in her face afterwards.  Again I thank BC and SJ for the solid advice that helped me find the inner strength to show her the outer strength to deal with the crisis. 

Misha.. I am keeping your words in my back pocket.  I feel your comments were very well reasoned and thoughtful.  Your words will function as "devils advocate" when I am finally on the ground with her. 

I have taken measures to have a back up plan so if things should go south I will not be spending my time stuck on the 17th floor outside the third ring.  But, I doubt that will be needed. 

I also want to thank Possum for his support one day when I was chatting with my GF and Possum in seperate chat windows.  Even though we disagreed in the past, and probably will never see eye to eye on politics, Possum is a decent man and I hope we get to meet some day.

[Misha]

Misha.. I am keeping your words in my back pocket.  I feel your comments were very well reasoned and thoughtful.  Your words will function as "devils advocate" when I am finally on the ground with her. 

You're welcome I do hope things work out for you.

[Daveman]

Well, yeah, I think you're weird as hell for spinning fire naked.    I'd be afraid I'd catch something... oh nevermind, you don't seem to have that problem... (settle down flame throwers -.. it's a joke intended in good fun)

The face time is what you need most. Let whatever happens happen naturally. You'll have all the answers you need.

Good luck with the visit.

Dave

[possum]

Thanks, Sculpto.. Perhaps we could meet on one of your visits to Tomsk and have a beer at the English Pub or that Trash&Glam place I've never been to.. We could even bring rabbi Kamenetsky with us.. I'm sure he would love to meet you, even though you're not religious..

[OlgaH]

My favorite restaurants in Tomsk are "Vechny zov" and "Stary zamok". Great cuisine and atmosphere  I miss it.

[Diplomacy]

I am glad it worked out for you Sculpto.  I would have ended it and still would have.  As you said, you are both expressive.  I would draw the line, at being told what you were told. The one exception would be, if I said or did something that merited such an attack. I agree that you never throw it back in her face, but also never forget it was said. 

I am a knight, you are an artist.  In war, history is often the best indicator of how one will react.  I would never say such things to a woman I loved, and hope that is mutual.  Once trust or respect is lost, you have nothing.  You both are back at square one, there is nothing wrong with learning and becoming better people from it.

I have had enough chaos in my life, I was never a fan of it.  So see, history repeats.  I am still not a fan of it.

[Gator]

I have taken measures to have a back up plan so if things should go south I will not be spending my time stuck on the 17th floor outside the third ring.  But, I doubt that will be needed. 

I wish you the best and that everything goes well.

Both of you have invested much in each other.  I am not sure how a backup plan helps if it is anything other than the telephone number of an agency.

Both of you seem a bit volatile, so this trip could experience some volatile moments.  Even though you have a backup plan, do not use it unless you believe the relationship is dead forever.  In other words, stay committed.  Give it your all.  And if you walk away, do it because you want to start over and you want her to sart over too.  Do not walk away because you think this will make her reach out for you (as she did when you stopped corresponding). 

[Wienerin]

Sculpto, what good evidence do you have that her father is sick and that she herself had that crazy episode? Other than her words or letters... You haven't seen her father or other relatives. You haven't even been to her hometown, have you? All because she gives you some excuses to not travel there...

Thank G-d somebody else is in some doubts about the offered script And knowing something about Tomsk scene in general - I'm even in more doubts. BTW I looked through local newspapers and sites and haven't seen anything even remotely like these attacks on journalists, ot the paper editor leaving town because of threats, etc.

Some other place, more prominent newspaper people like Politkovskaya, etc. - and in the 90ies, too... maybe. But there and now, together with the blank unwillingness to see her boyfriend in Tomsk, etc., etc. - and then astonishing proposal to get married rather than going the K1 route... I dunno, but...

Her moodiness worries me actually more than anything. It doesn't matter that you can be moody too. Being moody will you do all the things or the like that she did while she was moody? Will you say to her what she said to you being moody? The main question is - do you or would you want to spend the rest of your life with such a moody woman? Walking on eggshells all the time? The whole world going down and up every week or so? I don't think even girlfriend-boyfriend relationship can withstand this, leave alone marriage...

Moody is a mild word to describe what Sculprto referred to. She is flying off the handle for no discernible reason at all - or for pretty inconvincing reasons. I've read similar things about AM told by new Russian brides - never vice versa. Even if (and it's a big IF) the circumstances are really as depicted by her - or perceived by her, she shows no interest in and tolerance of her supposedly partner for life. And her refusal to let him come to Tomsk - one of the more cultured Russian cities, - puts up a big red flag to me.

[Fashionista]

I am going forward with the trip.  We have eliminated specific expectations and there is no plan to try for a fast marriage in Moscow. 

Good thinking, Sculpto. Some things you shouldn't force.

I spin fire naked in the desert and for some of you that seems bizarre and weird.

Not at all.  This is what we normally do on weekends as a family. Fire also helps keeping ourselves warm, after all its -20 outside. 

[Faux Pas]

Thank G-d somebody else is in some doubts about the offered script And knowing something about Tomsk scene in general - I'm even in more doubts. BTW I looked through local newspapers and sites and haven't seen anything even remotely like these attacks on journalists, ot the paper editor leaving town because of threats, etc.

Some other place, more prominent newspaper people like Politkovskaya, etc. - and in the 90ies, too... maybe. But there and now, together with the blank unwillingness to see her boyfriend in Tomsk, etc., etc. - and then astonishing proposal to get married rather than going the K1 route... I dunno, but...

Moody is a mild word to describe what Sculprto referred to. She is flying off the handle for no discernible reason at all - or for pretty inconvincing reasons. I've read similar things about AM told by new Russian brides - never vice versa. Even if (and it's a big IF) the circumstances are really as depicted by her - or perceived by her, she shows no interest in and tolerance of her supposedly partner for life. And her refusal to let him come to Tomsk - one of the more cultured Russian cities, - puts up a big red flag to me.

I agree as it seems he is over looking manifested behavior that will likely show up again. It is a major red flag. I also think disagreements are healthy and aid in helping a couple discern if they can or will fall in love and have a thriving relationship. Behavior as described in this thread goes well beyond disagreement and more of a psychological function or disfunction whatever the case may be. Not only on the ladies part either. No disrespect intended Sculpt. IMHO

Sculpt. Actually I have known quite a few artists and none that I remember led unconventional lifestyles or twirled fire naked in the desert. Several were very accomplished artists. Perhaps your penchant to twirl fire as a nudist has nothing to do with your art? Or is it I am blinded by my obsession for golf and surburban lifestyle and am not enlightened?
 

[Daveman]

Sculpt. Actually I have known quite a few artists and none that I remember led unconventional lifestyles or twirled fire naked in the desert. Several were very accomplished artists. Perhaps your penchant to twirl fire as a nudist has nothing to do with your art? Or is it I am blinded by my obsession for golf and surburban lifestyle and am not enlightened?
 

 

Hey, I play gold naked in the suburban dessert... but for some reason my former foursome has vanished and took the whipped cream and cherries with them... hmmmm  ... it's a lonely life here with club in hand...  :evil:  :evil: